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A Pinch of CSM6, and a Dash of CSM7

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-16 04:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/01/csm8-campaign-season-pinch-of-csm6-and.html

Hans asked me to write about what I'd like to see from CSM8.

That's easy.

I'd like to see them continue to work hard on behalf of the players. There were only a handful of CSM7 members who did an incredible amount of hard work with CCP. Hans. Alekseyev. Trebor. Two Step. Elise. I'd like to see more members of CSM8 involved in the process, fewer of them no-shows.

I'd like to see CSM8 act more like CSM6, and less like CSM7 where sycophantic behaviour is concerned. Whenever CCP decides to write :words:, how about realizing that they are simply that, words, and that action must necessarily follow. It's fine to be optimistic, but be somewhat realistic on expectations.

I'd like to see less blind cheerleading:
Quote:
JON LANDER I WANT YOU TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT OF SOMETHING!!!!!

And more optimism, tempered with some reservation:
Quote:
Good blog, Unifex. Now I'm more eager than ever to see the minutes.

Optimism is cool. OPTIMISM!!!!! is not. Oh how I pine for the days when we had CSM leadership that didn't feel they were the public relations department for everything CCP had to say.

I'd like to see more of the CSM when they have something to say, and less when they don't. Having a CSM appear weekly on one of the many EVE podcasts is pointless. Unless a council member has something new and important to say, that isn't strangled by the NDA, then they really have nothing to say at all. As an example, immediately following the winter summit, none of the CSM had anything interesting to say. Next week, after the release of the summit minutes, the CSM is going to be chock full of things to say. I'd ask that CSM8 choose their public appearances wisely, preferably to coincide with events that they're allowed to talk about.

I look forward to CSM8, when we have either a Goon or a Test leading the ship. Someone to set the head firmly back on the shoulders. Someone who can be optimistic, who is willing to give some benefit of the doubt, but who also understands that they are dealing with CCP, a company who's track record with :words: is far better than their track record delivering on those :words:.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-01-16 05:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
So I have to ask. If, when the minutes are released tomorrow or the next day, it becomes apparent that the CSM has been working closely with CCP to bring to fruition what we've seen so far (the new development strategy is an obvious candidate in my mind, it looks awfully like CCP iterating on the CSM's "development paper" and deciding apocrypha-style is the way to go to do that to me) is that going to be sufficient for you, or is the fact that they weren't extremely open with the playerbase and publicly berating CCP when necessary still a deal-breaker for your view of the "ideal CSM"?


To phrase that more concisely, how are you going to respond if it becomes apparent that CSM7 has been fighting for the players and merely doing so internally rather than using public & media pressure as CSM6 was so prone to do? Because, the "masturbatory cheering" or "splooging" you've been complaining about elsewhere takes on a bit of a different character if it's because they're happy to see their own efforts coming to fruition, rather than being the sycophantic attitude you typically seem to ascribe it to.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-16 06:09:39 UTC
mynnna wrote:
... it looks awfully like CCP iterating on the CSM's "development paper" ...
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.
None ofthe Above
#4 - 2013-01-16 06:10:52 UTC
You know, I think it is actually fine to do a little cheerleading when people are on the right track.

You don't have to immediately go looking for the next thing to pillory them on.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-01-16 06:13:15 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
You don't have to immediately go looking for the next thing to pillory them on.
I've been on about their mindless cheerleading for awhile. It's mostly what soured me on CSM7. The endless PR overshadows a lot of the actual good work they do.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#6 - 2013-01-16 06:27:17 UTC
That Jon Lander praise is a trick praise though.

If he did run for president for something, he would no longer be able to work for CCP games. So Seleene, (being the merc he is) used stealth to rid Jon Lander from EVE forever.

I think that is wonderful criticism, and now look with trepidation towards the further expansions he is a part of.

I for one do see greed with that move though with I am assuming two hot women leading the CCP after Jon Lander leaves. Be a perfect time for a PL hotdrop. Led of course by Seleene.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-01-16 06:58:53 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
mynnna wrote:
... it looks awfully like CCP iterating on the CSM's "development paper" ...
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.


Honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Hard to tell. My point, though, is that you're assuming it's blind cheerleading, when it's entirely possible that their own internal work means it's anything but blind.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-01-16 07:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
mynnna wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
mynnna wrote:
... it looks awfully like CCP iterating on the CSM's "development paper" ...
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.Roll
Honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Hard to tell. My point, though, is that you're assuming it's blind cheerleading, when it's entirely possible that their own internal work means it's anything but blind.
Screaming out Unifex for President hyperbole, when Unifex himself admits that they're only just beginning to outline their plans for the summer expansion, is blind cheerleading. The CSM doesn't know whether CCP will even be able to adhere to their new development scheme.

Hail Unifex the conquering hero after 2013 is in the bag. Until then, it's just over the top optimism, and I'm not sure CCP yet deserves that level of optimism. The last three expansions haven't been perfect, CSM cheerleading to the contrary.

Crucible: good release.
Inferno: mostly failed systems and mechanics.
Retribution: success, but most of this expansion is fixing what was wrong in Inferno.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Unifex's devblog. I'm not blindly optimistic. Judging from most of the CSM7 comments on the latest devblog, they're blindly optimistic.

I would prefer CSM8 to be cautiously optimistic. You'll look less like sycophantic dumbasses.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-01-16 07:27:58 UTC
See, that's a reasonable, well thought out reply. You should try that more often.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-01-16 07:54:23 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
mynnna wrote:
... it looks awfully like CCP iterating on the CSM's "development paper" ...
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.Roll
Honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not. Hard to tell. My point, though, is that you're assuming it's blind cheerleading, when it's entirely possible that their own internal work means it's anything but blind.
Screaming out Unifex for President hyperbole, when Unifex himself admits that they're only just beginning to outline their plans for the summer expansion, is blind cheerleading. The CSM doesn't know whether CCP will even be able to adhere to their new development scheme.

Hail Unifex the conquering hero after 2013 is in the bag. Until then, it's just over the top optimism, and I'm not sure CCP yet deserves that level of optimism. The last three expansions haven't been perfect, CSM cheerleading to the contrary.

Crucible: good release.
Inferno: mostly failed systems and mechanics.
Retribution: success, but most of this expansion is fixing what was wrong in Inferno.

I'm cautiously optimistic about Unifex's devblog. I'm not blindly optimistic. Judging from most of the CSM7 comments on the latest devblog, they're blindly optimistic.

I would prefer CSM8 to be cautiously optimistic. You'll look less like sycophantic dumbasses.


Wouldn't it be a good idea to read the summit minutes before deciding that the CSM7 members shouldn't be exuberantly happy?

If I'd been on a team that had spent the best part of a year working hard to persuade someone over whom I had no direct authority to do things a Different Way™, and then seen a public announcement that he was basically doing exactly what we asked, I'd be pretty happy too. I might even indulge in a little "cheerleading" at landing such a huge result.

It's difficult to escape the conclusion that you just feel excluded from the process and you're a little bitter about not being entitled to join in that exuberance. CCP have given CSM7 a hell of a lot of things to be happy about.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-16 08:02:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
If I'd been on a team that had spent the best part of a year working hard to persuade someone over whom I had no direct authority to do things a Different Way™, and then seen a public announcement that he was basically doing exactly what we asked, I'd be pretty happy too. I might even indulge in a little "cheerleading" at landing such a huge result
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.Roll

Or said in a different way, it's kinda presumptuous to assume that Unifex is so incapable at doing his job, that he needed some internet spaceship nerds to tell him how to do it. Roll

Malcanis wrote:
It's difficult to escape the conclusion that you just feel excluded from the process ...
Are we in Oz, Dorothy? Who is this Strawman?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-01-16 09:12:30 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If I'd been on a team that had spent the best part of a year working hard to persuade someone over whom I had no direct authority to do things a Different Way™, and then seen a public announcement that he was basically doing exactly what we asked, I'd be pretty happy too. I might even indulge in a little "cheerleading" at landing such a huge result
Yes, without the CSM to guide him, CCP Unifex would still be blindly bumping into things and flailing about in the dark.Roll

Or said in a different way, it's kinda presumptuous to assume that Unifex is so incapable at doing his job, that he needed some internet spaceship nerds to tell him how to do it. Roll


"If CCP were doing things wrong when they weren't listening to the CSM, why should we give the CSM any credit when CCP do things right after listening to the CSM?". It's not all that presumptuous, because CCP as an organisation has made some pretty terrible decisions about developing EVE, many of them directly in opposition to the CSM's advice.

You're employing the fallacy of the excluded middle; which is that either the CSM had total control or zero influence. How about if their opinions and advice informed Mr Lander's decision, altering the result? Don't you think it's kinda presumptuous to assume that Mr Lander is lying when he states how valuable the CSM's input has been?

Even if Unifex was going to do everything the CSM wanted whether the CSM wanted it or not, the CSM is still entitled to be very happy that they're getting what they asked for, regardless of where the credit is truly due. At the end of the day, the CSM are unpaid volunteers who want to see the game improved. They're not on the promotion ladder, jostling for project credit to boost their end of year bonus. It's the result for EVE that counts. That's their "bonus", and they just got a big one.

But carry on trying to Grinch because it's not about you.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#13 - 2013-01-16 12:17:14 UTC
rodyas wrote:

I for one do see greed with that move though with I am assuming two hot women leading the CCP after Jon Lander leaves. Be a perfect time for a PL hotdrop. Led of course by Seleene.

Seleene might pop that cyno prematurely.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
None ofthe Above
#14 - 2013-01-17 05:15:08 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
You don't have to immediately go looking for the next thing to pillory them on.
I've been on about their mindless cheerleading for awhile. It's mostly what soured me on CSM7. The endless PR overshadows a lot of the actual good work they do.


I withdraw my criticism.

I finished reading the minutes and I am baffled by the optimism.

Can't say I liked what I read for the most part. (Although have to say now more sad to see Twostep not running again, if anyone emerged the hero of that document it was he.)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#15 - 2013-01-17 06:01:17 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
rodyas wrote:

I for one do see greed with that move though with I am assuming two hot women leading the CCP after Jon Lander leaves. Be a perfect time for a PL hotdrop. Led of course by Seleene.

Seleene might pop that cyno prematurely.


Oh snap, Seleene better contact his old alliance mate, fozzie and get him to rebalance premature cynoing. Of course with Risk and Reward, I still think he should give it a shot.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#16 - 2013-01-17 06:02:26 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
You don't have to immediately go looking for the next thing to pillory them on.
I've been on about their mindless cheerleading for awhile. It's mostly what soured me on CSM7. The endless PR overshadows a lot of the actual good work they do.


I withdraw my criticism.

I finished reading the minutes and I am baffled by the optimism.

Can't say I liked what I read for the most part. (Although have to say now more sad to see Twostep not running again, if anyone emerged the hero of that document it was he.)


The CSM has more SP and stuff then most of us do, so they have a buffer or so when things are annoying too much.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne