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So who wants T3's nerfed then?
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M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#101 - 2013-01-23 23:08:12 UTC
And so a baby threadnought is born...

T3s are fine, T2s need to be buffed, then T3s will be fine.

T3s aren't OP, here's why.
Cost - 400m+fit each
SP Loss - Not significant unless you lose them often, but people hate losing SP
They aren't flown that often - They are used largely in WH, and some 0.0 doctrines, but not in every day PVP

IMO, the true test of how OP a ship is, is to look at how often it is used.

T3s are used in WH, and as support in 0.0 (Tengu and Loki fleets are the exception, but Loki fleets suck and Tengu fleets aren't common) If they were in every gang in lowsec, in every roam fleet, they would be OP. What do we see instead? T1 cruisers and Nano ships like the Cynabal and Vagabond.

TL;DR, T3s are fine read my post to see reasons.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-01-24 01:30:04 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
When will people get this:
Price is not a balancing factor!
Especially not in a playerdriven economy with functioning supply/demand.
Otherwise we would still have titans with aoe-doomsday.

not sure if trolling or just insanely stupid.


Not sure if NPC trolling or just too insanly stupid to get how economy or even just this game works.


you have two ships that fulfill the same role. one can be produced by anyone and requires 1000 tritanium to build, the other one must be built from special resources that you only get from reprocessing 100 officer modules and also has a 5 month build time and 5 years in industry skill requirements. your balancing goal is to make both ships viable i.e. people should have incentives to fly both. do you make both ships equally powerful?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Talon Reese
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2013-01-24 19:37:20 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Hey, i just want to add a small side to this. I Can't fly a t3 ship. All i can fly that is of any potential and isk vs risk in WH space is a hurricane. I run solo, i know i don't have much to argue on becuase of that.. but if i can not solo in bc then why can a cruiser do it ;/.

The problem i find, is.. not only is the hurricane realy, realy hard to do anything with in c2 ( and i have almost maxed it's skills out) .. it also have no chance vs a t3 cruiser. Ofc, it's rarely a 1v1 in this blob fest of a game, but the T3 ships are so powerfull i have seen plenty going solo with huge success. They have very little to worry about, i don't think that's right. I remember the days you had to know the strengths of every ship, and quickly work out your strat for chance of vicotry/escape. This T3 just feels like ''Yeah I'll give it a go.. then warp out if i start to lose #T3''.

I had left the game, and when i did their was none of the T3 stuff. I don't knock change.. but it does feel like so many other ships have been put on the back burner, and not a viable option for the new content. Yes you can say the T3 cost a lot?.. but so does a well fitted BS. The issue is.. jumping a BS into WH space solo is just a bad idea. We all know a cruiser (even if it cots more) is at far, far less risk. The T3 is all the pro's of a cruiser.. the tank of a BS. This leaves a solo BC/BS where?.

I just think it's wrong that a player can train for less time than it took me to get this cane upto what it is.. and then spank the living day light out of me... before proceeding to afk clear up the rad site i was working.

All i can think of when i look at these T3 ships is ''Pay to win''.

P.s, no i have not been spanked by a T3 ship, so this is not a butthurt rant. The fact is, it would happen though.


Look at it this way, if you have 10 solo fights with a t3, and the t3 only wins 9/10, the guy in the BC is up about 75m. I think if you look at eve, "pay isk to win" is not only present - it's a major theme. You can buy faction ships with lower sp req. than t2 ships, that are far better than the t1 ships. You could pimp out that BC with 700m in officer and deadspace mods and you will crush a "normal" fit BC. I think t3's are nice, because they allow you to get more damage and survivability into a single ship, at the cost of lots of isk/risk - for those who can't or don't want to take the field with 3 buddies in BC's or what have you. t3's are sort of a "force multiplier" built in to your own ship. And, someone correct me if I am wrong, but can't you point a t3 just like any other ship?
Nemo deBlanc
Resource Acquisition Unlimited
#104 - 2013-01-26 02:03:51 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Hey, i just want to add a small side to this. I Can't fly a t3 ship. All i can fly that is of any potential and isk vs risk in WH space is a hurricane. I run solo, i know i don't have much to argue on becuase of that.. but if i can not solo in bc then why can a cruiser do it ;/.

The problem i find, is.. not only is the hurricane realy, realy hard to do anything with in c2 ( and i have almost maxed it's skills out) .. it also have no chance vs a t3 cruiser. Ofc, it's rarely a 1v1 in this blob fest of a game, but the T3 ships are so powerfull i have seen plenty going solo with huge success. They have very little to worry about, i don't think that's right. I remember the days you had to know the strengths of every ship, and quickly work out your strat for chance of vicotry/escape. This T3 just feels like ''Yeah I'll give it a go.. then warp out if i start to lose #T3''.

I had left the game, and when i did their was none of the T3 stuff. I don't knock change.. but it does feel like so many other ships have been put on the back burner, and not a viable option for the new content. Yes you can say the T3 cost a lot?.. but so does a well fitted BS. The issue is.. jumping a BS into WH space solo is just a bad idea. We all know a cruiser (even if it cots more) is at far, far less risk. The T3 is all the pro's of a cruiser.. the tank of a BS. This leaves a solo BC/BS where?.


This leaves the solo BS/BC as a nice, cost effective alternative to flying a strategic cruiser or other expensive site running ships.

I would argue a battleship fit properly could clear low class wh sites faster than several of the T3's. Sure, it's big and slow and dies if it gets caught. Who cares? It's cheap as hell. In all honesty, T3's aren't even that good for these low class wormholes, they're just what most people use because they're fairly easy to train into and they're standard. Don't fret the T3's. When lost, they'll cost minimum about 20 times what your Hurricane costs, as well as make the pilot lose 4-5 days of skill training. On some levels, cost is a balancing factor, and it's one that works well for T3's in the current meta.
Winthorp
#105 - 2013-01-26 02:14:01 UTC
Nemo deBlanc wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
Hey, i just want to add a small side to this. I Can't fly a t3 ship. All i can fly that is of any potential and isk vs risk in WH space is a hurricane. I run solo, i know i don't have much to argue on becuase of that.. but if i can not solo in bc then why can a cruiser do it ;/.

The problem i find, is.. not only is the hurricane realy, realy hard to do anything with in c2 ( and i have almost maxed it's skills out) .. it also have no chance vs a t3 cruiser. Ofc, it's rarely a 1v1 in this blob fest of a game, but the T3 ships are so powerfull i have seen plenty going solo with huge success. They have very little to worry about, i don't think that's right. I remember the days you had to know the strengths of every ship, and quickly work out your strat for chance of vicotry/escape. This T3 just feels like ''Yeah I'll give it a go.. then warp out if i start to lose #T3''.

I had left the game, and when i did their was none of the T3 stuff. I don't knock change.. but it does feel like so many other ships have been put on the back burner, and not a viable option for the new content. Yes you can say the T3 cost a lot?.. but so does a well fitted BS. The issue is.. jumping a BS into WH space solo is just a bad idea. We all know a cruiser (even if it cots more) is at far, far less risk. The T3 is all the pro's of a cruiser.. the tank of a BS. This leaves a solo BC/BS where?.


This leaves the solo BS/BC as a nice, cost effective alternative to flying a strategic cruiser or other expensive site running ships.

I would argue a battleship fit properly could clear low class wh sites faster than several of the T3's. Sure, it's big and slow and dies if it gets caught. Who cares? It's cheap as hell. In all honesty, T3's aren't even that good for these low class wormholes, they're just what most people use because they're fairly easy to train into and they're standard. Don't fret the T3's. When lost, they'll cost minimum about 20 times what your Hurricane costs, as well as make the pilot lose 4-5 days of skill training. On some levels, cost is a balancing factor, and it's one that works well for T3's in the current meta.



Yeah but mass alone is the reason BS's are not used more in WH PVE and PVP, sure people use them when your group is 1-4 people but any more and you have to be really careful.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-01-26 10:13:09 UTC
Sushi Nardieu wrote:
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
They have not stated any plans to nerf T3s in any way. They have announced plans to change how T3s work for boosting. A battleship puts out more DPS at a longer range for less cost than a T3 ship, they are in no way OP except that people need something to whine about.


Yes they have. Watch Fanfest 2012 ship re-balancing video on CCP youtube.

Also mentioned in a dev blog something about putting T3s down like the "rabid dog" that it is.

No specifics mentioned so far, just an incoming nerf.


This. CCP Specifically mentioned that T3s were going to be nerfed. Part of the heavy missile rebalance was so they could make balancing changes and nerfs to (the drake, IIRC, and tengu) without nerfing all the other heavy missile boats at the same time.
Lithorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2013-03-06 18:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lithorn
Random Woman wrote:
Sushi Nardieu wrote:
How to replace non-blue loot wormhole income then?

Nerfed T3s will devalue w-space.

I'm not even sure if CCP Fozzie will seriously consider w-space when re-balancing T2 / T3 ships.



The only thing that spreadsheetwarrior Fozzie considers while balancing stuff is the drone bay, and if a ship doesnt fits the one thing he wants it to do exactly he randomly adjusts the drone bay size.

As for T3, the problem is they are not generalized, they are just generally good.

They mostly offer the same bonuses as the specialized t2 ships, just with everything else better than the t2 variant. Add to that their small mass, and you have the perfect WH ship.



T3 require vast investments of ISK, time and risk that goes with that, to harvest the materials and produce T3 in a significant enough quantity to generate the R.O.I required.. T2 ships don't have that requirement. The raw materials themselves so far are still considerably more expensive than T2.
T3 by nature cost many many times more after all the raw materials, fittings and everything else is factored in.

If there is to be any shenanigans with ship re-balancing then its worth looking at the various T2 DPS ships and finding ways to make them slightly better to make up for the disparity rather than raging over how good or OP you think T3 is. I've seen T3 gangs get pounded by the most improbable opponents and fleet setups.

Poster #1 since you asked for opinions about your post, with as much of a respectful reply as I can muster... SHUT UP and fly something else if you are that bored! --- That being said I appreciate your post on this.
There are counters to everything, the secret is all in the fleet comp and the guy running the fleet. If either of those suck then no amount of isk or ships can prevent that failure from happening.


W-Space is/was the one thing I enjoyed most about eve when the rest of the eve experience started becoming boring, if any severely regressive changes were to happen to it I know a great many corporations and alliances would most likely start reconsidering their attitudes towards eve and CCP. Sov space grinding just become one big circle jerk after a while that's why w-space and other parts of eve are still so active.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#108 - 2013-03-07 11:16:22 UTC
T3's are fine. Just because a T1 gang can't take on a t3 gang without 4x the numbers (or more) doesn't mean they are OP

I like there to be ships that are hard as nails. I like flying through space shooting **** and still tipping my hat when a fleet significantly more capable than mine flies through. I don't want every fight to be fair, I want to fear things to keep the game interesting for me.

The idea that a random T3 fleet from a WH alliance may just surprise butsex an engagement or fleet elsewhere is bloody funny, even if I'm the one getting burned.

So what if some people think they are too cheap. For the people that can afford them they've earned that right? Oh no, a noob fleet of 50 ships can't kill 10 t3's/logi. So? If I gathered 50 new pilots in cessna's gave them all a machine gun to shoot out of the window and put them up against 10 veteran fighter pilots in modern fighter jets I wonder who will win.

Those newbs though will hopefully look at what just shot them up and think 'oh I got to get me one of those'.

What I'd like to see changed is the variety of effective ships in the t3 line up. each Tengu/proteus/legion/loki is the same. Sure the bling on them varies but the concept behind the fits are all very similar.

When I was a newbie and saw the guys in battleships, t3's and carriers I thought I'll get into some of those in the future, best get good enough to actually fly it before I get there.

If EVE becomes a game everyone thinks they should be equal at 6 months then it'll be a far lesser game for it let alone dull.