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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#101 - 2013-01-15 23:47:59 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.


Snipe
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#102 - 2013-01-15 23:56:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I wasn't actually talking about supercaps.
Then what other mechanics on stuff with jump drives are you talking about?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-01-16 00:02:05 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.


Snipe

You don't undrstand sir.

If you make it harder for a large group to easily travel through null, it'll become eaiser for small groups to travel in null.

Because...

I don't really know why, but a bunch of people in NPC corps keep telling me it will; so it must.



I told my doctor there was nothing wrong with my brain, now my legs don't work.
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#104 - 2013-01-16 00:08:13 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Fanatic Row wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah if i was to think of the top two things that RAZOR and Vuk Lau have been historically known to hate above all else, I'd say "lots of blues" and "presence of carebears"
I think that equates as much to 0.0 players enjoying 0.0, as stabbing your eyes out does to enjoying, well, anything.

Piles of blue carebears were certainly not there to be part of 0.0 as such, they were there to do their mindless hi-sec activities, but in a place where the ISK could flow to the "right" people.

I certainly don't hear 0.0 players go; "Man, if we just had more ratting space, 0.0 would be FUN again!".
Excuse me?

If null sec had a better distribution of content within the very systems we live in, more people could have fun actually playing were they live.

And that's only the umpteenth time I've personally said that.
And many others have been saying the exact same thing.

If you're not hearing it, it's because you choose not to. It's been said repeatedly.
No, what is being said is that if there wasn't so much crappy 0.0 space, maybe alliances wouldn't have to hold so much of it.

I completely agree that a 0.0 system should be able to support more players than it currently can. It will do crap all for the power projection and SOV aspect of the argument tho.

The big powers don't hold all that space so they can rat in it. They hold it for the moons, or the rent.

That's all beside the point tho, my post was a response to someone insinuating that "the spirit of Vuk Lau" welcoming blues and carebears was somehow out of the goodness of their heart and concern for the enjoyment of the masses, and not a means to an end to line personal wallets.
Mysterious Intent
InterStel Inc.
#105 - 2013-01-16 00:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mysterious Intent
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.

Snipe

You don't undrstand sir.

If you make it harder for a large group to easily travel through null, it'll become eaiser for small groups to travel in null.

Because...

I don't really know why, but a bunch of people in NPC corps keep telling me it will; so it must.



I told my doctor there was nothing wrong with my brain, now my legs don't work.

NPC corps know a lot of things.

EDIT: I should know because I posted with the wrong account.
Elise Frei
Freeview Corp
#106 - 2013-01-16 02:45:49 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


Coming from the Guy with a Nyx alt, and in a supercapital heavy alliance.

Oh leetykins...
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2013-01-16 03:41:26 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.

Considering that person is breathing oxygen, one of the three ingredients needed to create fire, so with more and more people huddling around the fire, the more oxygen is consumed by those people. When there is no longer enough oxygen for the fire, the fire goes out. So one can easily argue that after so much mass has jumped through, the cyno would go out.

For your educational pleasure, the fire triangle.

Your move.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-01-16 04:11:59 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.

Considering that person is breathing oxygen, one of the three ingredients needed to create fire, so with more and more people huddling around the fire, the more oxygen is consumed by those people. When there is no longer enough oxygen for the fire, the fire goes out. So one can easily argue that after so much mass has jumped through, the cyno would go out.

For your educational pleasure, the fire triangle.

Your move.


Cyno fields aren't campfires. And if the presence of a few people around a campfire causes that campfire to go out, those people have bigger problems than the fire going out. Like, you know, suffocation.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#109 - 2013-01-16 04:16:44 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
When there is no longer enough oxygen for the fire, the fire goes out. So one can easily argue that after so much mass has jumped through, the cyno would go out.

For your educational pleasure, the fire triangle.

Your move.
If there was any breathing going on in space, and the people doing the breathing were spaceships, and the beacon was anything like a fire, yes, one could easily argue that nonsense. Or, one could read between the lines and stop obviously trolling.

If enough ships huddle around a lighthouse, does the light go out?
Ryuu Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-01-16 04:23:04 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Any reasonable change CCP would make would be only a minimal burden to large organizations. ]



Well of course we dont want to disturb the harmony of those large organizations afterall arent the goons the ones pulling the strings at CCP?



Ignorance at its best. Please take the door to the left and biomass please.Pirate

No amount of 'fixing force projections via nerf cyno to X' will stop well established alliances from doing what they do. As how others have mentioned, we work as a team (very large team) to get things done. Want some SOV space? Get a bigger team. Don't like the idea? Join the bigger team... what the OP suggests will just make things harder for the little guys NOT easier i.e cyno gets nerfed - > build more ships. Build more ships -> get more nerf. Get more nerf -> Build more... see where this is going?

_**Noob **_isn't really a status, it's the online equivalent of a 5-year old calling you a poopy fart head.

  • Sun Tzu
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-01-16 04:29:01 UTC
If CCP can't/won't fix moongoo, something they have said is a problem for years and still have not fixed, they will not do something like this
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-01-16 04:37:48 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.

Considering that person is breathing oxygen, one of the three ingredients needed to create fire, so with more and more people huddling around the fire, the more oxygen is consumed by those people. When there is no longer enough oxygen for the fire, the fire goes out. So one can easily argue that after so much mass has jumped through, the cyno would go out.

For your educational pleasure, the fire triangle.

Your move.


Cyno fields aren't campfires. And if the presence of a few people around a campfire causes that campfire to go out, those people have bigger problems than the fire going out. Like, you know, suffocation.

Oh I know. Blink

Care to comment on the fact CCP has publicly acknowledged capital power projection is a major issue as per the fanfest video?
Jamyl Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2013-01-16 04:42:35 UTC
You can't nerf blobs because blobs aren't a mechanic. Anything they nerf is going to impact the entire community and simply set a new level from where people set a standard. Blobs will still dominate by volume. The game is a gank wins all game. The only real question is, if it bothers you that much, why are you still here?
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#114 - 2013-01-16 05:00:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Care to comment on the fact CCP has publicly acknowledged capital power projection is a major issue as per the fanfest video?
Not that I don't agree with the issue, apart from your inane example, but CCP are also the people with quality judgement calls such as; AOE doomsdays and moon-goo "rebalance".

Not everything they think is golden and using it as some kind of "CCP said this, so you're wrong" in an argument on the forums, is akin to ratting someone out to mommy and daddy in order to "win".

You're more than welcome to point out where CCP might stand on an issue, but as for caring to comment on CCPs acknowledgment? That's pretty much all people are doing here, some just disagree.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#115 - 2013-01-16 05:01:56 UTC
Ryuu Shi wrote:
RomeStar wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Any reasonable change CCP would make would be only a minimal burden to large organizations. ]

Well of course we dont want to disturb the harmony of those large organizations afterall arent the goons the ones pulling the strings at CCP?

Ignorance at its best. Please take the door to the left and biomass please.Pirate

No amount of 'fixing force projections via nerf cyno to X' will stop well established alliances from doing what they do. As how others have mentioned, we work as a team (very large team) to get things done. Want some SOV space? Get a bigger team. Don't like the idea? Join the bigger team... what the OP suggests will just make things harder for the little guys NOT easier i.e cyno gets nerfed - > build more ships. Build more ships -> get more nerf. Get more nerf -> Build more... see where this is going?

It's like Malcanis' law but in reverse. If you try to nerf the big guys, you end up nerfing the small ones even worse because they're already having trouble.

Unless they join a blob Cool

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-01-16 05:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Marlona Sky wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.

Considering that person is breathing oxygen, one of the three ingredients needed to create fire, so with more and more people huddling around the fire, the more oxygen is consumed by those people. When there is no longer enough oxygen for the fire, the fire goes out. So one can easily argue that after so much mass has jumped through, the cyno would go out.

For your educational pleasure, the fire triangle.

Your move.


Cyno fields aren't campfires. And if the presence of a few people around a campfire causes that campfire to go out, those people have bigger problems than the fire going out. Like, you know, suffocation.

Oh I know. Blink

Care to comment on the fact CCP has publicly acknowledged capital power projection is a major issue as per the fanfest video?


Well, if they plan to fix it in the next year or so then if I'm elected to CSM8 I'll work with them to address it. I'll also tell them flat out that nerfing jump range is a dumb way to do it.

e: And to pre-empt the obvious question, no, I'm not really sure what I think the best way to address it would be, though I feel some of my other passions (the general farms and fields concept for one) would play a roll. But, the funny thing about getting a bunch of people together in a room is that their ability to generate and refine an idea grows exponentially as compared to one person thinking on his or her own. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#117 - 2013-01-16 05:10:35 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Well, if they plan to fix it in the next year or so then if I'm elected to CSM8 I'll work with them to address it. I'll also tell them flat out that nerfing jump range is a dumb way to do it.

I will indeed mindlessly vote for you to make this happen!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-01-16 05:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Well, if you all insist there is nothing wrong, lets see how far we can take it.

I propose all jump and bridge ranges be increased ten fold.

How does that sound?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#119 - 2013-01-16 05:26:06 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Well, if you all insist there is nothing wrong, lets see how far we can take it.

I propose all jump ranges be increased ten fold.

How does that sound?


That's like saying "you say that Hurricanes don't need a nerf? Well what if they did 10 times their DPS?"


"Fine as is" != "Needs a ridiculous increase"

The phrases don't even have the same number of words.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#120 - 2013-01-16 05:32:33 UTC
Arguing with marlona sky logic gives you brain cancer.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal