EVE General Discussion

I read this article and comments by Myanna on Mittani. It was so bad I had to make an rebuttal.

So what is the actual “non problem” he claims needs no solution

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9nhbCPkJSw

As you can see blob of 250! carriers is able transit half of eve map in something like 30 minutes circumventing all choke points, all gate camps and all defences! (actually I can be done even faster then that, but it was -A- so …). Myonna would like for you to think things like that are non issue, that problem of power projection is non-existent. But he is wrong. (In addition events like that also show why nerfing only titan bridges is not enough. Big alliances can simply change their doctrine to capital ships only, and make titan bridging irrelevant anyway)

Let start with a good part of his article. He is correct that nerfing Jump drive calibration alone will make 0.0 space trade harder, and I agree this is not a desirable outcome. However there are 4 fallacious background assumptions he makes to construct rest of his argument.

First fallacy is red herring of discussing exclusively how jump mechanics will affect solitary trading and supply jump freighters when actual need for change comes from excessive ease of deploying massive blobs of combat capitals and super capitals.

Second is that nerfing of jump drive mechanics could not be done in a way that would not affect typical way jump fighters are used. This is incorrect, there is no reason why default jump freighter jump rage could not be increased to compensate for jump calibration nerf.

Third is that this will hurt small 0.0 sov entities most. This is laughable as there is no such thing left in all of eve sov 0.0. We have 4 coalitions in sov 0.0, CFC, HBC+N3, Soalr block and smallest Porvi block. Who is this mythical independent small alliance Mynna is concerned about? Frankly it is ridiculous that representatives of big blocks are concocting in existence fictitious entities to justify preservation of patently broken mechanics they benefit from.

Forth fallacy is that big coalitions can simply compensate for significant jump mechanic changes with their superior numbers. This is possible, but only to a small extent. If nerf is small like one he discussed in his article (reducing benefit form jump drive calibration) he is right. But this is why nerf has to be more hard hitting.

For example if there was a mass limit on of say 2 carriers per cyno then that carrier blob in the video above would have to have something like 400 cyno alts ready in position! That is over 120 accounts costing something like 70 billion isk a month to maintain and would be severe drain even on wealthiest alliances. ( What is goon budget now-days? 500B? Even they would think twice if they want to maintain fleet of 120 cyno accounts at the cost of ~15% of their budget). Even bigger problem is managing that many alts at the same time in a coordinated fashion without excessive workload and burnout of pilots, FC and directors.

But limit of 2 carriers per cyno would in no way affect reasonable use of carriers like deployment of triage pair, like R&K does. So it is exactly the opposite of what Myonna suggests, it is very much possible to change jump drive mechanic in a way to limit big entities while leaving smaller entities unaffected, or only marginally affected.

Non of them holds significant sov.

Mynnna speaks from experience in a sov-holding null-sec alliance.
OP speaks from experience gained from a Youtube video.
Mynnna is an obvious member of a sov-holding null-sec alliance.
OP is a member of a high-sec NPC corp.

OP is speaking a little bit out of their league.

Ignore who is speaking, look at what is being said. Otherwise you have appeal to authority fallacy.

I might have to recheck my math but IINM cyno for single titan would allow only 2 carriers to pass.

I did. You propose balancing via ISK, which is not only a terrible idea but also affects the small guys more than the big guys.

Fallacies abound on both sides of this argument.


So what you're saying is smaller entities hold smaller amounts of sov? Isn't that the whole point?


Yes only CFC, HBC, Solar, etc. have any right to discuss jump drives. Never mind that everyone from WH to NPC 0.0 uses carriers and JF's all the damn time.

Honestly, the article raises many salient points. I believe that IF carrier/dread/titan/super range was nerfed (say by nerfing JDC as the article suggests) then JF's should receive a corresponding role bonus to nullify said changes.

I disagree with the point that nerfing the jump range of combat assets wouldn't have the desired effect. Cut jump range of combat assets far enough and power projection will go down. Not gonna have too much power projection if a max skill carrier/titan can only jump/bridge 1ly at a time. Not that such a drastic change is a good idea.

A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.

We would build more than your hundred man corp.


What part of that is so difficult for you guys to grasp.

Where is a small group, with very limited sov, holding 10 titans?

Either you work with others or you don't. If you don't, you pay for that by losing your sov.
And in the end, it's working with other people that allows you to move easily across space. Whether it's being done with a titan bridge, a JF, or having to do every hop one at a time. If you're working with others your getting to your destination easier, and keeping your space safer, than by beig a belligerent **** to all of your neighbors.

No large entity in null exists because one group forced others to play with them.

The day ABC + M ores stop making their way up there, is the day high sec goes to **** in a handbasket.
As for the cyno talk, listen, when your defending space from multiple entry points you need the ability to field ships (carriers) & supplies (jump freighters). The longer the range the better!