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CNR sustained tank - what am I missing?

Author
Femke Doutz
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-17 05:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Femke Doutz
Here ya go, my good old Navy Raven that I used to use for doing havens in angel space.

This tank works nice against angels because the shields already have a good base resist against explosive and angels do like 80% explosive damage.
The nice thing is that it doesn't use a cap-booster but it also doesn't use CCC rigs.

You have like 9-10 minutes of cap when running the booster. But you shouldn't ever have to be in a situation where that is needed. So basically you don't run out of cap in this fit unless you're being neuted. (cough sansha rats) I don't think you can make this fit works against other targets then angels.

It has mild pimpage.

[Raven Navy Issue, CNR]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Stasis Webifier
Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster
Explosive Deflection Field II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Warrior II x5
Valkyrie II x5
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-01-17 09:32:43 UTC
Femke, your fit isn't all that good for level 4s. You're placing way too much importance on sustained ehp/s, while sacrificing both burst ehp/s and dps - both figures that make CNR shine in comparison to SNI.

Let's look at the figures:

At full Level V, the above CNR has the following stats: 71664 ehp, 709 dps + drones, sustained 242 and maximum 308 ehp/s, targetting range 93km. Meanwhile, an equally equipped Navy Scorpion has 73574 ehp, 644 dps + drones, sustained 203 and maximum 404 ehp/s, targetting range 112 km and two extra spare slots. Let's be evil and add completely worthless cap rechargers in there - we get to 365 sustained ehp/s for 15 minutes. Or better, let's add just one cap recharger for 275 ehp/s (still more than the CNR above) and add a MJD instead, allowing us to dictate range.

That's of course assuming we even want the web on a cruise missile ship in the first place - since one of the main advantages of a cruise missile ship is its range - lest we may as well fit torpedoes - a target painter is usually a considerably better idea.

As I said on previous page, the main goal while flying a CNR is to squeeze the maximum dps out of its extra launcher. Here's approximately what you want:

[Raven Navy Issue, basic faction]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Garde II x3
Hobgoblin II x5


Here's what you get: same ehp as the CNR you linked above, only 182 sustained ehp/s, but 721 ehp/s burst (+134% compared to above CNR), 800 dps (+12%) + drones, 121 km targetting range (+30%) and the ability to hit anything cruiser and up for maximum damage at least 90 km out. The downsides are tight fit (you need pretty much all cpu fitting skills, as it has only 21 cpu left or just 4 cpu left if the fourth BCU is T2 rather than CN) and a bit under 3 minutes of cap. Now, you'll say, "3 minutes of cap, are you freaking crazy?!?" No, I'm actually not. I flew this ship with just barely over a minute of cap myself and it performed fine. This ship is all about jumping in, lowering the incoming dps through its firepower while the X-Large does its job, then chilling out while mopping the rest of the room. Further pimping at one's discretion, for about 3 billion total, you can omnitank it fairly well and increase its ehp by another 10k, but at that price, I'd seriously consider one of the pirate ships instead, since most get even more dps.

HOWEVER, I can imagine a new player might be a bit scared to get his brand new shiny navy ship into a level 4 he doesn't know and rely on its cap to sustain him. In that case, I suggest one of two options:
1. get a Navy Scorpion, which has a better tank and is easier to fit <- I stronly encourage this option for someone new to level 4s
2. replace Amplifier or Painter with Cap Booster <- if you want to get used to Raven/CNR, but aren't quite comfortable with it yet


Disclaimer: all figures assume hitting for maximum damage on 0 resist target and no implants or boosters. Implants and resists favor gank fit, as more damage lands through.
Femke Doutz
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-01-17 17:40:09 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Femke, your fit isn't all that good for level 4s. You're placing way too much importance on sustained ehp/s, while sacrificing both burst ehp/s and dps - both figures that make CNR shine in comparison to SNI.
My fit isn't really for lvl 4s. It's for havens warping in at 0 where the rats spawn right on top of you, in the case of angel rats with their speed. The web helps a lot more then the target painter. I've tested it.

Having said that your fit is arguably better but also a bit more expensive.

I generally see 2 types of ravens and that's the CCC variant trying to be cap stable. (which nobody should fly, honestly) or the cap booster variant, which is pretty good if you're a young cash limited capsuleer.

I just wanted to show that if you have a bit more to spend that you can go without the cap booster and still have a nice DPS raven WITH the rigors and without the ccc's. Because honestly, after some time you get sick of hauling those cap charges around.

Your fit shows that better.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#24 - 2013-01-17 18:00:36 UTC
Chris Abaddon wrote:
Hi you guys.

I was setting up a CNR for lvl4 missions and came across several fits. Found my own one, fitted the thing, got into lvl4s and

WHOAH barely made it out alive.

Then I checked the numbers and found the CNR to have only 157 sustained defence in EFT (with specific hardeners and against the respective enemy damage profile). So I tried to fiddle around a little, but seriously: without 3 CCC rigs and several cap upgrades in low and mid, I just can't seem to get to the 600-700 sustained hp/s that people recommend.

Don't get me wrong, my Tengu for instance has 741 hp/s and that is with a sig radius of 150m and a 100MN fit so it makes 1.5 km/s.

I just cannot get that damn CNR up to proper values.

What am I missing? Thx already for the help!

The CNR fit I was initially using:

[Raven Navy Issue, Navy Raven 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x10

very similar to my fit. Except drop one of the rigor rigs for a flare rig. And use an X-large shield booster. My cap only lasts about 1 1/2 minutes but pulsing the booster only when needed it is plenty to last until the incoming DPS is under control. Use precision missiles for anything smaller than a battlecruiser. you will 1 volley most frigs, all destroyers, and even a lot of cruisers. precision and fury cruise missiles seem to apply about the same damage to battlecruisers so no big loss there if you do not switch, while fury missiles make fast work of the Battleships.

There are a few missions when my shields will get low but usually only because I messed up my agro control.
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Voidlings
V0IDLINGS
#25 - 2013-01-17 20:16:19 UTC
Chris Abaddon wrote:
Hi you guys.

I was setting up a CNR for lvl4 missions and came across several fits. Found my own one, fitted the thing, got into lvl4s and

WHOAH barely made it out alive.

Then I checked the numbers and found the CNR to have only 157 sustained defence in EFT (with specific hardeners and against the respective enemy damage profile). So I tried to fiddle around a little, but seriously: without 3 CCC rigs and several cap upgrades in low and mid, I just can't seem to get to the 600-700 sustained hp/s that people recommend.

Don't get me wrong, my Tengu for instance has 741 hp/s and that is with a sig radius of 150m and a 100MN fit so it makes 1.5 km/s.

I just cannot get that damn CNR up to proper values.

What am I missing? Thx already for the help!

The CNR fit I was initially using:

[Raven Navy Issue, Navy Raven 1]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x10

You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#26 - 2013-01-17 22:48:27 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.


You should probably stop giving fitting advice to people.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#27 - 2013-01-17 23:29:23 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.


You should probably stop giving fitting advice to people.


Oy. Yes indeed.
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Voidlings
V0IDLINGS
#28 - 2013-01-18 11:54:13 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.


You should probably stop giving fitting advice to people.



How to increase sustained tank a 3 step guide by Yoyodyne Corp.


First, remove undersized booster and replace with appropriate sized one.

Second, procure capacitor regen to use said booster.

Third, remind these people that they are indeed bad at eve.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#29 - 2013-01-18 12:27:00 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.


You should probably stop giving fitting advice to people.



How to increase sustained tank a 3 step guide by Yoyodyne Corp.


First, remove undersized booster and replace with appropriate sized one.

Second, procure capacitor regen to use said booster.

Third, remind these people that they are indeed bad at eve.


Fitting CCC instead of rigor rigs make for less applied dps, which is the whole point of doing missions. So telling ppl to go for cap stable CCC shitfits isn't helping them, it's giving them bad advice.
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania
Voidlings
V0IDLINGS
#30 - 2013-01-19 00:34:37 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
You have no Cap brah.
Drop the PDS for a Cap Flux II and rig some CCC's on there.

Behold the magic of sustained tank.

Or, upgrade to Gist XL and laugh at rats.


You should probably stop giving fitting advice to people.



How to increase sustained tank a 3 step guide by Yoyodyne Corp.


First, remove undersized booster and replace with appropriate sized one.

Second, procure capacitor regen to use said booster.

Third, remind these people that they are indeed bad at eve.


Fitting CCC instead of rigor rigs make for less applied dps, which is the whole point of doing missions. So telling ppl to go for cap stable CCC shitfits isn't helping them, it's giving them bad advice.

With the new changes to skills and torpedos/cruises, it is overkill to fit 3 rigors.
Not to mention stacking penalties.
Not to mention that OP wanted more sustained tank, which comes at a cost. On almost every hull. In fact, it's a simple mechanic of eve. Want more dps? Give up tank.

Short of putting more expensive mods (Which i also suggested), that is his only option.

But it's okay. I too can EFT warrior without ever actually using the ships in practice too.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#31 - 2013-01-19 01:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:
With the new changes to skills and torpedos/cruises, it is overkill to fit 3 rigors.
Not to mention stacking penalties.
Not to mention that OP wanted more sustained tank, which comes at a cost. On almost every hull. In fact, it's a simple mechanic of eve. Want more dps? Give up tank.

Short of putting more expensive mods (Which i also suggested), that is his only option.

But it's okay. I too can EFT warrior without ever actually using the ships in practice too.



There were no changes to cruise unless you count the T2 ammo, so what was before still applies.

because explosion radius weighs heavily in the applied damage calculation it's still worth using 3, although 2 rigors + 1 flare certainly is defendable they're very similar in performance and I just feel better off with 3 rigors. Either way, using the stacking excuse to remove rigors/flares altogether in favour of CCC is hilarious

OP didn't want more sustained tank, he asked why the numbers he saw were so "bad" and when we explained to him how to read those numbers and optimise his fitting/strategy he was fine with said low numbers. And it didn't involve shitfit cap stable bullshit fits.
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