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SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2013-01-15 21:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Some people seem to have this absurd idea that "gorilla warfare" can be coded into a video game and work.
Null sec is cuba and you want to be Castro and Che?

"Gorilla warfare" worked for those guys as long as population (those guys both sides don't normally shoot and who provide important supplies and shelter) was on their side. When Che attempted to proceed with the same thing far outside Cuba he met language barrier that made his rhetoric unable to sway locals to his side and without support he was nabbed and executed in short order. True story, even though I don't remember details and I'm too lazy to google.
EVE doesn't have anything fitting criteria for "local population" in a sense I've outlined, locals thend to be more integral part of factions opposed to each other (in a "gorilla war" scenario) instead.

And actually, alliances don't have to project power that much. Guys from NPC null, low and WHs sometimes enter sow null in noticeable numbers, but they don't get to be hotdropped by titans. Locals usually more than capable of offering symmetrical response. Of course you can, via some CCP ex machina, slow down large groups and thus block ability for them to make focused strikes. Chances are that their territory will be picked apart a bit while they are adapting, but it still will be the same amount of players in the alliance against same composition of intruders and I doubt that the winner will change because of that.
If somehow small groups will be able to travel fast and unburdened while remaining effective (BlackOps carriers, whatever you can come up with) while traditional power projection is cut, then large alliances will reorganize into smaller entities, but still with centralized command, in timely manner. They will still be able to use whatever tools small group may have, while retaining numbers.
You can argue that long-range projection, if cut, will be unable to help to deal with concentrated attacks from many directions, but that effectively means that an alliance attacked by even larger group... And last time I checked those alliances everyone complain about don't have any huge evil empire casting shadow over their territories (pun not intended, but fun).
The only thing that may happen is that some will gain some determination with such a change, but it's not that they can't commit to action today if they wish. In the end it's just not worth it. Why would you call for crusade when regular players (ones that are soilders in these wars) don't care for midnight alarm gameplay or whatever you will need to change something radically in null, and they already have a lot of what people expect from null: enter you CQ sometimes, sov pew is all over the place; or check KBs for that matter; other activities are also in place. So in the end most of people will probably just leave "rabble-rouser" corps/alliance and join different "sov blobs". It's just convenient. AFAIK Reds were like that, managing to do something from time to time by commiting really hard, but people were burning out quickly and they went into decline every time. Then there were assets issues, but that's another story... In the end they reformed, the rest is history.

Oh, and you don't have to tavel for 40 jumps in your possibly slow ships though bubbled (and then left alone) gates just to maybe see some action...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#302 - 2013-01-15 21:37:15 UTC
Dragon Outlaw wrote:
When I see some people rage against suggestions on the forums like I see here!!! Man!!....some people`s RL must really suck to spend all that time "fighting" on how a computer game should be working.

Get a fracken life!!!

Nobody is raging.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#303 - 2013-01-15 21:49:44 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Nah, I am instead going to nitpick on your comment regarding "games are supposed to be fun". Cause judging from your stance, you're probably having quite a lot of fun with the current EVE, no? Then what about those who are outside the fence with no way of coming in? I mean, there is a reason for why there is this huge discussion about blobs and power projections and whatnot else, right?

Cause, you know, isn't part of the fun also about everyone being able to participate without forcing them into a blob? Fun and fairness (from a game rule/game mechanical perspective obviously, not from EVE metagame perspective) kinda does go hand in hand.

The goal is NOT to have small groups be equal in power as the blobs, like some of you keep insisting of bringing up for whatever stupid reason, let alone give small groups the ability to hold and defend half the galaxy by themselves.

CCP created an area of EVE where people not intersted in playing within a much larger group, and who would prefer PvP geared around smaller engagements.

It's called low sec.

Don't want to be a part of a blob, or work with a large alliance.
Go to low sec. It's why it exists.

Null sec is for empire building.
And there are lots and lots of small groups in null who undertand that if you want to survive in null you HAVE TO make friends.

As long as people can work together, large groups will from from smaller ones. As long as large groups can form, they will have an advantage over smaller ones. It is impossible to develop an area of the game that allows both large and small groups to thrive, without the need to work together.



You guys remind me of the myth of cold fusion.
Everything in nature says that in order for fusion to happen you need to compress a large amount of gas into a dense ball and have it erupt, at which piont it is hot.

Yet, some scientist still cling to the idea that you can create fusion by doing the exact opposite of anything ever observed in the universe.


Some of you guys seem to think that CCP can code against human nature. That they can inject a mechanic that negates any benefit that is gained by working together.

There is no mechanic that CCP can code that would ever allow a small group to claim space in null, and not have to work with the people around them.

Diplomacy can not be coded against or balanced by any mechanic.
High sec for your PvE
Low sec for your PvP
Null for diplomacy.

EVE in a nutshell.

Go to low for your small gang stuff, or roam null sec (people do that you know). Come to null and HELP build an empire.

Goonwaffe didn't build an empire alone, why do you guys think you should?
fukier
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2013-01-15 21:53:12 UTC
null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2013-01-15 21:53:41 UTC
I WANT LOWSEC IN MY NULLSEC, CCP BETTER CATER TO MY NICHE OR I'LL UNSUB.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#306 - 2013-01-15 22:01:36 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Some people seem to have this absurd idea that "gorilla warfare" can be coded into a video game and work.
Null sec is cuba and you want to be Castro and Che?

"Gorilla warfare" worked for those guys as long as population (those guys both sides don't normally shoot and who provide important supplies and shelter) was on their side. When Che attempted to proceed with the same thing far outside Cuba he met language barrier that made his rhetoric unable to sway locals to his side and without support he was nabbed and executed in short order. True story, even though I don't remember details and I'm too lazy to google.
EVE doesn't have anything fitting criteria for "local population" in a sense I've outlined, locals thend to be more integral part of factions opposed to each other (in a "gorilla war" scenario) instead.

And actually, alliances don't have to project power that much. Guys from NPC null, low and WHs sometimes enter sow null in noticeable numbers, but they don't get to be hotdropped by titans. Locals usually more than capable of offering symmetrical response. Of course you can, via some CCP ex machina, slow down large groups and thus block ability for them to make focused strikes. Chances are that their territory will be picked apart a bit while they are adapting, but it still will be the same amount of players in the alliance against same composition of intruders and I doubt that the winner will change because of that.
If somehow small groups will be able to travel fast and unburdened while remaining effective (BlackOps carriers, whatever you can come up with) while traditional power projection is cut, then large alliances will reorganize into smaller entities, but still with centralized command, in timely manner. They will still be able to use whatever tools small group may have, while retaining numbers.
You can argue that long-range projection, if cut, will be unable to help to deal with concentrated attacks from many directions, but that effectively means that an alliance attacked by even larger group... And last time I checked those alliances everyone complain about don't have any huge evil empire casting shadow over their territories (pun not intended, but fun).
The only thing that may happen is that some will gain some determination with such a change, but it's not that they can't commit to action today if they wish. In the end it's just not worth it. Why would you call for crusade when regular players (ones that are soilders in these wars) don't care for midnight alarm gameplay or whatever you will need to change something radically in null, and they already have a lot of what people expect from null: enter you CQ sometimes, sov pew is all over the place; or check KBs for that matter; other activities are also in place. So in the end most of people will probably just leave "rabble-rouser" corps/alliance and join different "sov blobs". It's just convenient. AFAIK Reds were like that, managing to do something from time to time by commiting really hard, but people were burning out quickly and they went into decline every time. Then there were assets issues, but that's another story... In the end they reformed, the rest is history.

Oh, and you don't have to tavel for 40 jumps in your possibly slow ships though bubbled (and then left alone) gates just to maybe see some action...

Let me rephrase this, and I'm going to spell gorilla wrong several times.

CCP can not code in the ability to use "gorilla" warfare to take sov. It's impossible. You need to hold it.

The PoS jump drive idea would be excellent to promote gorilla style tactics, but you won't be able to TAKE and HOLD a system that way.

CCP will never code a mechanic that allows 20 guys to take a system on a whim. They will always notify the sytem holder, and the holder will always be given the abillity to defend the system. Games with mechanics that allow you to flip ownership of something in off hours tend to fair poorly.

Any mechanic that allows me to log off, go to sleep, wake up and find my space has been conquered, would hurt EVE.

That doesn't mean that there isn't room to improve the sov mechanics.


Small corps already hold sov and thrive in null. They used diplomacy and understand you can't ignore your neighbor because they don't want to be a part of the blob. Blobbing, which CCP supports and goes to great lengths to develop server code to allow. They want us engaging in massive fights.

That is the only reason that created the titan bridge mechanic. To facilitate travel across large portions of the map so people can engage in largescale fighting.

Because it sells boxes.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2013-01-15 22:03:47 UTC
fukier wrote:
null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay...

Empire Builder

I lead my alliance to conquest and control over territory in the outer regions
»I am the leader of an alliance of capsuleers in nullsec
»My alliance has fought for control of territory in the outer regions against other capsuleer alliances
»In the territory under our control we have built outposts and other facilities
»As alliance leader, I forge deals with allies and demand tribute from vassals
»Economics, politics and espionage are as important to me as military power

That is from:
http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/empire-builder/

CCP says you're wrong.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2013-01-15 22:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gillia Winddancer
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Nah, I am instead going to nitpick on your comment regarding "games are supposed to be fun". Cause judging from your stance, you're probably having quite a lot of fun with the current EVE, no? Then what about those who are outside the fence with no way of coming in? I mean, there is a reason for why there is this huge discussion about blobs and power projections and whatnot else, right?

Cause, you know, isn't part of the fun also about everyone being able to participate without forcing them into a blob? Fun and fairness (from a game rule/game mechanical perspective obviously, not from EVE metagame perspective) kinda does go hand in hand.

The goal is NOT to have small groups be equal in power as the blobs, like some of you keep insisting of bringing up for whatever stupid reason, let alone give small groups the ability to hold and defend half the galaxy by themselves.

CCP created an area of EVE where people not intersted in playing within a much larger group, and who would prefer PvP geared around smaller engagements.

It's called low sec.

Don't want to be a part of a blob, or work with a large alliance.
Go to low sec. It's why it exists.

Null sec is for empire building.
And there are lots and lots of small groups in null who undertand that if you want to survive in null you HAVE TO make friends.

As long as people can work together, large groups will from from smaller ones. As long as large groups can form, they will have an advantage over smaller ones. It is impossible to develop an area of the game that allows both large and small groups to thrive, without the need to work together.



You guys remind me of the myth of cold fusion.
Everything in nature says that in order for fusion to happen you need to compress a large amount of gas into a dense ball and have it erupt, at which piont it is hot.

Yet, some scientist still cling to the idea that you can create fusion by doing the exact opposite of anything ever observed in the universe.


Some of you guys seem to think that CCP can code against human nature. That they can inject a mechanic that negates any benefit that is gained by working together.

There is no mechanic that CCP can code that would ever allow a small group to claim space in null, and not have to work with the people around them.

Diplomacy can not be coded against or balanced by any mechanic.
High sec for your PvE
Low sec for your PvP
Null for diplomacy.

EVE in a nutshell.

Go to low for your small gang stuff, or roam null sec (people do that you know). Come to null and HELP build an empire.

Goonwaffe didn't build an empire alone, why do you guys think you should?


Still missing the core point, like always. The human nature in itself is perfectly fine. It is the rules that it wraps around that needs changing somewhat. Empire maintenance past a point currently is way too easy. Maintaining blobs comes with no drawbacks of any kinds. Lots of people are not happy with it. Which part is so difficult to see, considering it is blatantly sticking out?

And please, don't bring goonwaffe as a prime example on how to do things right. A huge external community from the get-go that migrated into EVE Online. Manpower was never a problem from the very beginning so don't even act as if goons started out just like everyone else. The method in itself is completely irrelevant but at the same time it kinda makes your point rather...pointless. At least use the example of any other alliance who did it the "traditional" way.

And finally I will keep repeating this particular point as you seemingly still insist ignoring it entirely: small groups should NOT hold massive quantities of space or be able to defend space effectively against larger armies. What they should be able to do however is harass the large alliances effectively. If blobs end up splitting up into smaller groups, spread out all over their territory in order to counter - EXCELLENT! That is exactly an option that should be available to them. The odds of fights happening will then increase even further without blobs happening as often.

So what if external groups won't immediately be able to gain territory? At least they'll be able to fight and bide their time instead of being left out until they grow large enough to challenge the others in mass...hah, what the hell am I saying. As if that happens every week, right?

You know, you claim that empires are meant to be built by people, right? You conveniently leave out the part which states that they are to be destroyed by people as well. For a sandbox, EVE certainly come with very, very, very few options on how to do that right now. And after all this time discussing this issue, I can safely bet my money that there are a lot of you out there who are bat-crap scared of the thought of any changes that would allow people to easier wreck empires and forcing you to leave that nice bubble of comfort that you have created.

*edit* - sentence came out rather incorrectly
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#309 - 2013-01-15 22:13:30 UTC
Two way wormhole to titan bridges.

Wait, so if a titan gets caught somewhere, he should be able to open a jump bridge to a nearby cyno gen, and friends could take that wormhole to instantly come assist him?

Do you have ANY idea how much of a massive buff for titans that would be?

"Hey guys, look, solo titan, with noone next door, tackle him!"
"Hahaha, he just opened his jump portal"
-50 man fleet enters, couple light cynos, rest of fleet comes through.-

This means the titan is only stuck in place for 60seconds, and can have a decent high slot fit, instead of fitting a cyno, and being stuck for 10 minutes. Additionally, sub capitals can now bridge instantly TO the titan.

Terrible terrible terrible. I mean, the other suggestions arent as bad, but this would make force projection MUCH easier in eve.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#310 - 2013-01-15 22:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2013-01-15 22:20:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.

You posted in the wrong thread.
You also haven't posted any reasonable suggestions of your own.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#312 - 2013-01-15 22:21:55 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:

You know, you claim that empires are meant to be built by people, right? You conveniently leave out the part which states that they are to be destroyed by people as well. For a sandbox, EVE certainly come with very, very, very few options on how to do that right now. And after all this time discussing this issue, I can safely bet my money that there are a lot of you out there who are bat-crap scared of the thought of any changes that would allow people to easier wreck empires and forcing you to leave that nice bubble of comfort that you have created.

*edit* - sentence came out rather incorrectly

Tell that to NC dot.

How about AAA.

IRC?

Everything you wrote is an issue of sov mechanics, and not really much to do with titan bridges.

I'm well aware of the OP's points, and others as well. Some people don't like that a large force can be moved quickly and easily into a position to either take or defend a system.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that CCP created titan bridges so that people can do exactly that.



How about this.

Someone tell me why CCP gave us the ability to build a ship that allows you to move large fleets long distances, if not to promote more largescale fighting, and to get people into the fights faster.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#313 - 2013-01-15 22:26:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.

You posted in the wrong thread.
You also haven't posted any reasonable suggestions of your own.

It's all good. If we are going to have two threads on the same subject, I have no issues with posting here too.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#314 - 2013-01-15 22:28:52 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.

You posted in the wrong thread.
You also haven't posted any reasonable suggestions of your own.

It's all good. If we are going to have two threads on the same subject, I have no issues with posting here too.

There's not a problem with that, although the article you were addressing was the topic of the other thread.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#315 - 2013-01-15 22:38:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.

You posted in the wrong thread.
You also haven't posted any reasonable suggestions of your own.

It's all good. If we are going to have two threads on the same subject, I have no issues with posting here too.

There's not a problem with that, although the article you were addressing was the topic of the other thread.

Yeah because both threads will totally not be about the same subject resulting in the same posts. lol
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#316 - 2013-01-15 23:11:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
That article was fear mongering bull **** under the veil of wanting to protect the little guy.

You posted in the wrong thread.
You also haven't posted any reasonable suggestions of your own.

It's all good. If we are going to have two threads on the same subject, I have no issues with posting here too.

There's not a problem with that, although the article you were addressing was the topic of the other thread.

Yeah because both threads will totally not be about the same subject resulting in the same posts. lol

Which is why the other thread should be locked, since this one came first.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#317 - 2013-01-15 23:19:15 UTC
Although I'm not really qualified to comment on this topic, much like most of the other people posting, I want my name in what may well become a threadnaught.

Mr Epeen Cool
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#318 - 2013-01-15 23:22:16 UTC
I don't even know why people are still crying about the floating loot pinata's that we call supercaps.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-01-15 23:25:31 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay...

Empire Builder

I lead my alliance to conquest and control over territory in the outer regions
»I am the leader of an alliance of capsuleers in nullsec
»My alliance has fought for control of territory in the outer regions against other capsuleer alliances
»In the territory under our control we have built outposts and other facilities
»As alliance leader, I forge deals with allies and demand tribute from vassals
»Economics, politics and espionage are as important to me as military power

That is from:
http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/empire-builder/

CCP says you're wrong.


interesting but when an empire get too big it usually dies... (rome/England/Mongolia/japan/America) but as the way force projection works... you can defend all your borders...

this does not go well with history...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#320 - 2013-01-15 23:26:35 UTC
Nerf aircraft carriers and ICBMs!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)