These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-01-15 17:58:09 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



No.

We already established that null is a wartorn battlefield. We already established ccp designed it so. This is what we've been talking about for these last few pages. Even to the point we aren't even talking anymore about the mechanics, but the applications of those mechanics.

Otherwise, there is no need for a titan in the first place.

Now there is a bunch of bullshit.

You sir, are dead wrong.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-01-15 17:59:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-...

why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while...

like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else...

would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight?

I think you're missing the point.
If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk.
So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded.



yeah i know you have a bat phone that means you never really have to worry about loosing them...

though i think if was a even battle and a few extra super caps meant the difference and if the space was really worth it i think you would risk the assests...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#243 - 2013-01-15 18:02:13 UTC
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.

The worse part.

You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do.

If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that **** needs to be nerfed.


That's pretty ****** up if you ask me.
Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that.


i dunno if razor left the cfc and teamed up with irc that would have been epic... and tried to reform the NC but make irc the new MM

Curiously, you didn't say "IRC join the CFC."

That's kind of my point.

One action, that CCP says we can take, is looked upon by you guys as "bad for the game", but another that CCP allows to take is not.

And that is a poor assesment of the way things work.

As long as it's player driven, it's good, and that is all that is required.
Decided by the players themselves, not a mechanic, not CCP.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#244 - 2013-01-15 18:03:40 UTC
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-...

why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while...

like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else...

would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight?

I think you're missing the point.
If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk.
So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded.



yeah i know you have a bat phone that means you never really have to worry about loosing them...

That's not the point.
If we didn't have that batphone, then we wouldn't risk it. You'd see less PVP. You'd see much less sov being taken as well because it's only bearable to take sov when you have supercaps to grind all those billions of EHP.

fukier wrote:
though i think if was a even battle and a few extra super caps meant the difference and if the space was really worth it i think you would risk the assests...

Maybe, just maybe. But right now space isn't worth that at all. In any case this has nothing to do with the thread.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#245 - 2013-01-15 18:04:23 UTC
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

Error: Working As intended
fukier
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2013-01-15 18:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced.

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.
.


I think you nailed it on the head with these two comments...

one is content dispersement and the other is lack of content in other systems...

two things i hope in the upcomming sov revamp will be looked at...

And I agree.

However, titans aren't used to access that content. They're used to move fleets who are going to engage in a fight. I don't use a titan bridge to get to NPC null, I use it to get to your system quicker so that I can shoot you.

Now, why would CCP give us tools to get to shooting each other quicker, because that's what titan bridges are for. Getting people in a position to shoot each other quicker.


It's easy to say, "they can move you across vast portions of the map quickly" while not ever explaining HOW and WHAT you need to do to do that.

You don't just jump from location A to location B 30 jumps away with a single button press, and there's a crapton of work no one's expressing in this thread that is required to make it possible to move beyond the actual limits of a single titan (which is the root of your issue).

It is NOT as simple as using a titan to travel. Just one titan birdge requires WORK, setting up multiple ones requires a LOT of work. The titans themselves have to be moved into all the correct positions. That is, you have to have on within limits of your final destination.



And you shouldn't be able to jump a titan using a titan bridge. Can you?



for me back in 06 when i first read about titans and bridges i allways pictured them working as a way to get a small task force into a system to harrass a blockade on a stargate so you could jump in your main force... i never liked the fact that they became a mobile stargate to move your enitre force and to negate stargates all togehter (other then the need to camp them for sbu but i think sbu are a terrible mechanic)
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#247 - 2013-01-15 18:05:54 UTC
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

As apposed to what?

"Small gang and good fights justification/ entitlement."
fukier
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-01-15 18:08:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-...

why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while...

like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else...

would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight?

I think you're missing the point.
If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk.
So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded.



yeah i know you have a bat phone that means you never really have to worry about loosing them...

That's not the point.
If we didn't have that batphone, then we wouldn't risk it. You'd see less PVP. You'd see much less sov being taken as well because it's only bearable to take sov when you have supercaps to grind all those billions of EHP.

fukier wrote:
though i think if was a even battle and a few extra super caps meant the difference and if the space was really worth it i think you would risk the assests...

Maybe, just maybe. But right now space isn't worth that at all. In any case this has nothing to do with the thread.


so really what you are saying is if they fixed sov mechanics then my ideas would not be soo bad... but as it stands its the only way to take space so it must continue?

i can handle that argument...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-01-15 18:09:03 UTC
fukier wrote:



for me back in 06 when i first read about titans and bridges i allways pictured them working as a way to get a small task force into a system to harrass a blockade on a stargate so you could jump in your main force... i never liked the fact that they became a mobile stargate to move your enitre force and to negate stargates all togehter (other then the need to camp them for sbu but i think sbu are a terrible mechanic)

You don't see how, when one day you couldn't do that and then another you could, that would mean CCP looked at the game and said there needs to be an easier way for large groups to get across the map quicker for fights?

You don't see how they developed mechanics to facilitate what you don't like.


And please understand, that what you envisioned does indeed sound cool to me.
But that's never been the way war worked in null, has it.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2013-01-15 18:09:23 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



No.

We already established that null is a wartorn battlefield. We already established ccp designed it so. This is what we've been talking about for these last few pages. Even to the point we aren't even talking anymore about the mechanics, but the applications of those mechanics.

Otherwise, there is no need for a titan in the first place.

Now there is a bunch of bullshit.

You sir, are dead wrong.



Feel free to reread all the pages we used to get here.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#251 - 2013-01-15 18:10:14 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

As apposed to what?

"Small gang and good fights justification/ entitlement."


To what? Anything but what it is now P

Error: Working As intended
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2013-01-15 18:10:15 UTC
fukier wrote:
so really what you are saying is if they fixed sov mechanics then my ideas would not be soo bad... but as it stands its the only way to take space so it must continue?

i can handle that argument...

No, your ideas still need a lot of work because as it is they favor large alliances like us.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#253 - 2013-01-15 18:10:27 UTC
More like another "changing some feature of ships will stop human nature" thread.

Force projection is a problem right now, but it is a matter of margins, not a re-engineering of nullsec gameplay.

The core of nullsec gameplay will live or die based on totally different issues from force projection.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2013-01-15 18:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

As apposed to what?

"Small gang and good fights justification/ entitlement."


To what? Anything but what it is now P

Maybe null isn't for you. And that's fine, you have highsec, lowsec, and wormhole space. All with different modes of gameplay and different objectives.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
fukier
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-01-15 18:12:43 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.

The worse part.

You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do.

If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that **** needs to be nerfed.


That's pretty ****** up if you ask me.
Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that.


i dunno if razor left the cfc and teamed up with irc that would have been epic... and tried to reform the NC but make irc the new MM

Curiously, you didn't say "IRC join the CFC."

That's kind of my point.

One action, that CCP says we can take, is looked upon by you guys as "bad for the game", but another that CCP allows to take is not.

And that is a poor assesment of the way things work.

As long as it's player driven, it's good, and that is all that is required.
Decided by the players themselves, not a mechanic, not CCP.


now you bring up nietzsche... nothing in the end is good or bad its just a matter of perspective...

but yeah i get your point... i would love to see after a sov revamp a global reset of everyone... then watch the fireworks and eat popcorn... but tahts just me i like more conflicts with not already determined results...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#256 - 2013-01-15 18:13:30 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



No.

We already established that null is a wartorn battlefield. We already established ccp designed it so. This is what we've been talking about for these last few pages. Even to the point we aren't even talking anymore about the mechanics, but the applications of those mechanics.

Otherwise, there is no need for a titan in the first place.

Now there is a bunch of bullshit.

You sir, are dead wrong.



Feel free to reread all the pages we used to get here.

I'm sorry, you're not very bright.

Maybe you should actually read the thread, and maybe count how many of the posts belong to me; which begins at post number 6, you troll.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-01-15 18:14:09 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
More like another "changing some feature of ships will stop human nature" thread.

Force projection is a problem right now, but it is a matter of margins, not a re-engineering of nullsec gameplay.

The core of nullsec gameplay will live or die based on totally different issues from force projection.


elaberate... you sound smart my friend...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#258 - 2013-01-15 18:14:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

As apposed to what?

"Small gang and good fights justification/ entitlement."


To what? Anything but what it is now P

Maybe null isn't for you.

Ahh yes null is not for me because i dont subscribe to your idea of what null suppose to be, im glad we cleared that up P

Error: Working As intended
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-01-15 18:15:27 UTC
Hedion's oracle wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Posting in yet another " Nullsec suppose to be blue justification/Entitlement" but by all means proceed P

As apposed to what?

"Small gang and good fights justification/ entitlement."


To what? Anything but what it is now P

Maybe null isn't for you.

Ahh yes null is not for me because i dont subscribe to your idea of what null suppose to be, im glad we cleared that up P

And what is null supposed to be?

Enlighten us with actual content in your posts.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#260 - 2013-01-15 18:16:35 UTC
It looks like this thread is getting a bit stale. Time to breathe some life into it.



A good fix for the power projection issue would be to remove jump drives from all ships, but leave the jump portals and reduce their range to the adjacent system.

Then allow Cap/Super Caps to use Null Sec gates and Caps to use Low Sec gates.

This will bring back some strategic thinking into the game as in "should I move my forces there?" "or will I get boxed in that dead end constellation by superior forces?"

Moving your forces somewhere will mean something again, and be closer to RL warefare.

This will make it far more difficult to maintain large patches of Sov and will remove the "hot drop o'clock" insta travel that has often broken games in the past. It is broken here, even though many will not admit it.

Jump drives and Jump Portals were interesting when they were rare, but now they are so common, it actually breaks the game by allowing and encouraging massive orgs to take over huge amounts of space.

This was not what Eve was meant to be. This is what Eve has become due to the Devs catering to the few, IMO. Blink