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SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
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fukier
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2013-01-15 17:28:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:

i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills)

for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak...

It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move across the cluster.
It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans).


i would say your war again irc is what i am looking for... they are right next door (so to speak) its actually 15 titan jumps to get from branch to cobalt edge? that seems rather unlikely... perhaps you had them deployed elsewhere and had to move them that far...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2013-01-15 17:31:02 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
A cool down on jump drives and titan-bridged ships pretty much ends all issues of force-projection. The rest are solved by making it costly to leave your home undefended while you road-trip around burning the homes of others, but you'll never fix that by tweaking jump drives etc.

Ten wasted pages discussing something with a clear and simple solution.



ok then what is stopping ccp from doing this?

i hope csm and ccp are reading this thread and comming up with solutions...

oh dont forget about titan bridgin outside a pos shield too...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2013-01-15 17:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:

i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills)

for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak...

It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move across the cluster.
It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans).


i would say your war again irc is what i am looking for... they are right next door (so to speak) its actually 15 titan jumps to get from branch to cobalt edge? that seems rather unlikely... perhaps you had them deployed elsewhere and had to move them that far...

First of all we live in Tenal, not that that makes much difference.
Second of all there's only one connection between Tenal and Cobalt Edge, and that's SF-XJS <-> HB-5L3, and the distance between those two systems is too large for even a carrier with JDC5 to traverse. If you look on the map in-game you'll realize why.
(Max range for a carrier with JDC 5 is 14.625 LY)

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#224 - 2013-01-15 17:33:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game?

Fifteen minutes, lol.


I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time...

But if there a cool down time of like
10 min this could take over an hour...

10 minutes between what, exactly?
You have to be very careful in implementing the cooldown to make sure it doesn't hurt smaller alliances disproportionally more than large ones.

If you have 10 minute cooldown between uses of titan bridges or jump drives however, that only hurts alliances and coalitions that don't have titans placed enroute already. That's absolutely not a problem for an alliance like RAZOR or the coalition as a whole - we already do this fairly often.



Exactly! Why can't people get that these limits want doesnt help small groups like they think it does. With a 10 minute timer a small group with one titan would take longer to jump. However a large group just uses a different Titan to jump while the first Titan cools down and logs off. All it will do is boost big and nerf small.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2013-01-15 17:36:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:

i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills)

for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak...

It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move across the cluster.
It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans).


i would say your war again irc is what i am looking for... they are right next door (so to speak) its actually 15 titan jumps to get from branch to cobalt edge? that seems rather unlikely... perhaps you had them deployed elsewhere and had to move them that far...

First of all we live in Tenal, not that that makes much difference.
Second of all there's only one connection between Tenal and Cobalt Edge, and that's SF-XJS <-> HB-5L3, and the distance between those two systems is too large for even a carrier with JDC5 to traverse. If you look on the map in-game you'll realize why.


you are correct sorry i got branch and tenal mixed up in my head (at work atm and it would be bait to pull out the sov map)

so basically due to jump distance you guys are forced into the very situation i would like to see made as a game mechanic...

tell me did killing irc was that fun? was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-01-15 17:37:55 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



Yea man I agree, I'm an advocate of "ccp made it therefore its working" since I'd rather adapt than reconstuct. Just seemed an odd stance to take in regards to arguing as opposed to building a community of information. Myself, I think politically what sov is about is failed since from a growth aspect the "turmoil" and "chaos" of null is now apparently shortlived since you get to a point where an empire is so large diplomacy becomes a matter of sharing spoils not playing Axis and Allies with spaceships anymore lol.

That would probably be my biggest advocate of nerfing the ability to bridge to begin with. I'd rather see growth on a smaller scale for new blood to be entered, and those gaps would be created by the inability to hold all the space because you wouldn't want to move 15-30 jumps for a borderland that meant nothing in the first place. The idea of a fringe system being encroached, then another, then another, then they get close enough for "you" (any coalition/sov holder) to push back and eject sounds more exciting than "X corp has their 326th tech moon, rejoice! and share 3 moons with this other corp" which is what the politics is now today.

But again, that's me =)

"The turmoil and chaos of null"

That is the misconception.
Null isn't intended to be a place of turmoil or chaos. It's intended to be the player run counterpart to high sec, where there can exist turmoil and chaos becuase the players make it so.

It seems people have come to this conclusion, that because there is no concord in null, that null is supposed to be the place players go to constantly fight with others. Diplomacy isn't a one way street though, you can negotiate peace a well as war.

If tomorrow, all of null turned blue and we started working together, null would be working as intended. Just like tomorrow if everyone reset, it would be working as intended.


That's why low exists.
As a place of CONSTANT conflict, chaos, and turmoil. All of low sec is a warzone; null sec is not.

And new blood can enter, the problem is people think you should "enter" by blowing **** up. If that's what you want to do, try, but you'll work really for that. Or you could just use diplomacy.

You think every GSF member is capable of holding thier space by themselves? There are corpoartions holding space all around me, without having hunreds of members. They got there by working together with others, as apposed to thinking they "had to" come in with guns blazing.


No one is being hindered from developing a corporation to rival any other corporation. It all comes down to the willingness to put in the effort to grow. You can put several thousand guys in a single corporation, and ally them with another corporation.


CCP gave us the ability to build up large groups, then they gave a an area of the map and said claim what you want.
Why do people think that when CCP did this intentionally that something isn't working correctly because a "small group" can't take a system by force?

We're supposed to be able to build empires as large as any one of the four NPC factions in high sec. You can not do that with nothing but a bunch of small groups fighting over space. A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced.

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.



CCP funnels us into NPC null systems.
That's why most systems are empty. CCP didn't put all the PvE content in our homes, they put it select systems, as a conflict driver outised of war. We do not occupy a system we hold becasue there's nothing in it to occupy us. So we have large empires in null, doing what they're supposed to be doing, but ending up with mostly empty systems because they're largely useless.


A system that is useless to a group the size of Goonwaffe, is going to be even more useless to a group with only 100 guys.
Small groups are crying about not being able to take something, that isn't even worth having anyways. You'll get it, and then the majority of your guys will be in an NPC system or high sec doing other things. Just like us.

There's also safety in space. Holding one system is harder than holding that one sytem surounded by 10 others. The larger you get, the more space you need, because that space is a coushion between you and a potential enemy. The further your enemies or potential enemies are from your primary hubs, the safer you are, and the more space you have to fall back on if it comes to that.

We're supposed to be doing it big. Every tool CCP has given null is designed to do it big.
Untill you're large enough, or diplomatically capable of holding space in null, you should in low sec where you can do more small gang types stuff.

And when CCP gives us mobile PoS's, the small guys will be able to engage in incursion like activities in other peoples space in null. Small groups aren't supposed to take space, they're supposed to harrass the residence within that space, and some small groups undrestand and do this already.


If I want a small gang, "good fight", I only need undock. Because other people get it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#227 - 2013-01-15 17:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
fukier
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-01-15 17:44:24 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced.

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.
.


I think you nailed it on the head with these two comments...

one is content dispersement and the other is lack of content in other systems...

two things i hope in the upcomming sov revamp will be looked at...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#229 - 2013-01-15 17:46:16 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.

The worse part.

You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do.

If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that **** needs to be nerfed.


That's pretty ****** up if you ask me.
Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that.
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#230 - 2013-01-15 17:48:23 UTC
/signed

Fact: PVP was a lot better before people could hot drop massive blobs.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#231 - 2013-01-15 17:48:52 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.



CCP funnels us into NPC null systems.
That's why most systems are empty. CCP didn't put all the PvE content in our homes, they put it select systems, as a conflict driver outised of war. We do not occupy a system we hold becasue there's nothing in it to occupy us. So we have large empires in null, doing what they're supposed to be doing, but ending up with mostly empty systems because they're largely useless.


A system that is useless to a group the size of Goonwaffe, is going to be even more useless to a group with only 100 guys.
Small groups are crying about not being able to take something, that isn't even worth having anyways. You'll get it, and then the majority of your guys will be in an NPC system or high sec doing other things. Just like us.

Listen to the Goon, there is wisdom in his words.

Or, if you don't want to believe him, do the math yourself. There's very little that's actually hidden about this.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2013-01-15 17:52:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In fact, if I may add to this point, I think it's part of the reason IRC and alliances like it keep sov so long, in addition to their space not being worth much at all. For a smaller alliance this would have been far too much effort and left their home region open to attack to move their caps/supercaps in this manner. You might say "good, that's what's supposed to happen" except that it doesn't happen at all because when given the option of taking **** sov and leaving their home region open to attack, people will sit on their hands.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2013-01-15 17:52:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
"The turmoil and chaos of null"

That is the misconception.
Null isn't intended to be a place of turmoil or chaos. It's intended to be the player run counterpart to high sec, where there can exist turmoil and chaos becuase the players make it so.

It seems people have come to this conclusion, that because there is no concord in null, that null is supposed to be the place players go to constantly fight with others. Diplomacy isn't a one way street though, you can negotiate peace a well as war.

If tomorrow, all of null turned blue and we started working together, null would be working as intended. Just like tomorrow if everyone reset, it would be working as intended.


That's why low exists.
As a place of CONSTANT conflict, chaos, and turmoil. All of low sec is a warzone; null sec is not.

And new blood can enter, the problem is people think you should "enter" by blowing **** up. If that's what you want to do, try, but you'll work really for that. Or you could just use diplomacy.

You think every GSF member is capable of holding thier space by themselves? There are corpoartions holding space all around me, without having hunreds of members. They got there by working together with others, as apposed to thinking they "had to" come in with guns blazing.


No one is being hindered from developing a corporation to rival any other corporation. It all comes down to the willingness to put in the effort to grow. You can put several thousand guys in a single corporation, and ally them with another corporation.


CCP gave us the ability to build up large groups, then they gave a an area of the map and said claim what you want.
Why do people think that when CCP did this intentionally that something isn't working correctly because a "small group" can't take a system by force?

We're supposed to be able to build empires as large as any one of the four NPC factions in high sec. You can not do that with nothing but a bunch of small groups fighting over space. A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced.

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.



CCP funnels us into NPC null systems.
That's why most systems are empty. CCP didn't put all the PvE content in our homes, they put it select systems, as a conflict driver outised of war. We do not occupy a system we hold becasue there's nothing in it to occupy us. So we have large empires in null, doing what they're supposed to be doing, but ending up with mostly empty systems because they're largely useless.


A system that is useless to a group the size of Goonwaffe, is going to be even more useless to a group with only 100 guys.
Small groups are crying about not being able to take something, that isn't even worth having anyways. You'll get it, and then the majority of your guys will be in an NPC system or high sec doing other things. Just like us.

There's also safety in space. Holding one system is harder than holding that one sytem surounded by 10 others. The larger you get, the more space you need, because that space is a coushion between you and a potential enemy. The further your enemies or potential enemies are from your primary hubs, the safer you are, and the more space you have to fall back on if it comes to that.

We're supposed to be doing it big. Every tool CCP has given null is designed to do it big.
Untill you're large enough, or diplomatically capable of holding space in null, you should in low sec where you can do more small gang types stuff.

And when CCP gives us mobile PoS's, the small guys will be able to engage in incursion like activities in other peoples space in null. Small groups aren't supposed to take space, they're supposed to harrass the residence within that space, and some small groups undrestand and do this already.


If I want a small gang, "good fight", I only need undock. Because other people get it.




No.

We already established that null is a wartorn battlefield. We already established ccp designed it so. This is what we've been talking about for these last few pages. Even to the point we aren't even talking anymore about the mechanics, but the applications of those mechanics.

Otherwise, there is no need for a titan in the first place.

You speak of contentless space. You mean to say you outgrew the income potential based on numbers. Working for $10/hr is fine for a low 20yr old something who is a bachelor, bad for that dude who is feeding 10 kids. Needs a higher paying job, needs more room. We get that. That isn't the point. You are trying to come off as someone who is playing for the greater good? By what, dominating null through war? Seriously? Goons steamroll everything. Yes diplomacy and deals were struck. Noone is arguing that. Null is wartorn and we all know it. We read it everyday. Low is true piracy and not lawlessness, but pure aggression. It's the open sea with no port. Null is a continent of hostile countries.

NBSI remember?

Don't try to downplay it lol, recognize the beast for what it is. No shame no harm no foul. There are plenty of people who would love to check out null and see what it has to offer, be it ratting (module drops $$) and quite frankly, have more fun going from belt to belt ratting, doing better anomalies, maybe even get into some gate camps. Based on what you just said, I shouldn't need 1000 people in a corp to do it. Blue is working as intended! But that isn't true. Enforcing peace with force isn't peace. It's subjugation.

AAA wasn't kicked out peacefully were they?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-01-15 17:53:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.



yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-...

why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while...

like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else...

would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight? 
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#235 - 2013-01-15 17:54:47 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
No.

We already established that null is a wartorn battlefield. We already established ccp designed it so.

No you haven't, because it isn't. Sov null is where you're supposed to build empires.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
fukier
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2013-01-15 17:54:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In fact, if I may add to this point, I think it's part of the reason IRC and alliances like it keep sov so long, in addition to their space not being worth much at all. For a smaller alliance this would have been far too much effort and left their home region open to attack to move their caps/supercaps in this manner. You might say "good, that's what's supposed to happen" except that it doesn't happen at all because when given the option of taking **** sov and leaving their home region open to attack, people will sit on their hands.



i think that is more to do with the ease of being counter hot dropped then the desire of those to use thier expensive toys...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#237 - 2013-01-15 17:56:06 UTC
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced.

People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems.
.


I think you nailed it on the head with these two comments...

one is content dispersement and the other is lack of content in other systems...

two things i hope in the upcomming sov revamp will be looked at...

And I agree.

However, titans aren't used to access that content. They're used to move fleets who are going to engage in a fight. I don't use a titan bridge to get to NPC null, I use it to get to your system quicker so that I can shoot you.

Now, why would CCP give us tools to get to shooting each other quicker, because that's what titan bridges are for. Getting people in a position to shoot each other quicker.


It's easy to say, "they can move you across vast portions of the map quickly" while not ever explaining HOW and WHAT you need to do to do that.

You don't just jump from location A to location B 30 jumps away with a single button press, and there's a crapton of work no one's expressing in this thread that is required to make it possible to move beyond the actual limits of a single titan (which is the root of your issue).

It is NOT as simple as using a titan to travel. Just one titan birdge requires WORK, setting up multiple ones requires a LOT of work. The titans themselves have to be moved into all the correct positions. That is, you have to have on within limits of your final destination.



And you shouldn't be able to jump a titan using a titan bridge. Can you?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-01-15 17:56:14 UTC
fukier wrote:
yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-...

why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while...

like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else...

would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight?

I think you're missing the point.
If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk.
So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Axe Coldon
#239 - 2013-01-15 17:56:15 UTC
Please stop nerfing Supers and Titans. No I don't have one but someday I hope too. I would like them to still be useful beyond a status symbol.

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2013-01-15 17:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother?

i think the results speak for themselves...

You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself.

In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that.
Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer.

The worse part.

You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do.

If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that **** needs to be nerfed.


That's pretty ****** up if you ask me.
Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that.


i dunno if razor left the cfc and teamed up with irc that would have been epic... and tried to reform the NC but make irc the new MM
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.