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Farmers and FW: throwing them off the castle wall

Author
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#21 - 2013-01-13 18:25:31 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Farmers



Hey I see that the Galentte farmers have moved to your boarders now.. Perhaps Hans can help you guys, or better yet just forget about FW for anything more than "Fourm Wars" because in game is not worth fighting over anymore. You simply can't beat the numbers of farmers.


I dunno.. If I could get all the Amarr militia Forum Warriors to do half of what I do, I think at least we could put up a real fight for once.


We played the game. It sucks. We aren't interested in wasting hours continuing to play it. Play your alts orbiting buttons, if you want. But its not for everyone. Thats why there aren't that many people playing the occupancy game.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#22 - 2013-01-13 18:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ground ctrl
OP

The reason people keep doing plexes without pvp is because they can get away with it by hiding in back systems. Timer countback is one option. But its not the best option. the best option would be to let militias know where their complexes are being attacked.

If the countback is too draconian then we may find a single blob moving though and the side with fewer numbers can't accomplish anything. I think a notification system with a timer that loses about 2 minutes everytime you warp out would be better.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Pen Is Out
#23 - 2013-01-13 19:03:43 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
chatgris wrote:
This is in CCP's backlog, and our CSM representative Hans has been pushing this pretty hard. It should come soon.


Sure it is and I'm sure Han's is also working hard on any suggestions for fixes.. I mean he's managed to visit and propose his ideas to us on the forums so often after his free trip to Iceland. I mean I feel so informed as he's done such a great job..

Oh wait it's not re-election time, I guess it will be awhile til he posts wont it.. Roll


If you'd read the dev blog from October of last year...

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73491

Quote:

We will be attempting to release two new features to the FW complexes that have been suggested many times by the FW community to increase PVP opportunities in complexes:
Have plex capture timers count backwards to the default state when no players are contesting them



As far as Hans post - he posts a LOT on the forums, don't think I'll be able to find his specific post. But if you're not willing to take my word for it, then at least you've got confirmation that the devs have it in their devblog.
senior moment
Exiled Dominion
#24 - 2013-01-13 19:31:51 UTC
Just a note, some of us who warp off at the first sign of trouble are not all there to farm. I am in FW to learn PVP, but my 6 mil SP is no mach for the hardened amarr like Cynthia, dan and Flyingpocket.. they may all be the same for all I know. I do not fit stabs to my ships.. So when I see them on dscan i will warp off.
At least I feel I contributed something to the effort. and yes.. when there is a UK blob.. I will do my best to be in it... one day I hope to change that, but for now.. as a noob, that's what I got to do.
Also both the amarr and mini militia chats are full of people, but very few join the fight.. hell they even shoot each other to get LP from the plex.


Antares 04
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-01-13 19:38:17 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
As I understood FW farming is just 50-60mill per hour i.e. sucks compared to WH or null ratting. And you are trying to make it even less profitable via various time sinks. Well, good luck making your part of sandbox even less attractive than it is now!


"Just" 50-60 million isk per hour? So 2 hours of plexing would be 100-120 million then, roughly a new battleship every two hours or multiple versions of anything smaller, save T2?

Perhaps you want an official pay-per-hour from the Militas as well, so that would be another 10 million ever hour just to be enrolled.

What about a huge bounty for every fully captured system as well or a 10 billion isk bounty on the IHUB's while we are at it.

The isk gains should never be what attracts people to FW. PVP should. You want isk? You play a game just to make virtual money? By all means, but those other 'more lucrative' places you mention are indeed better options for you, so I'd advice you to go look those up, because clearly FW is not to your taste.
Antares 04
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-01-13 19:45:48 UTC
senior moment wrote:
Just a note, some of us who warp off at the first sign of trouble are not all there to farm. I am in FW to learn PVP, but my 6 mil SP is no mach for the hardened amarr like Cynthia, dan and Flyingpocket.. they may all be the same for all I know. I do not fit stabs to my ships.. So when I see them on dscan i will warp off.
At least I feel I contributed something to the effort. and yes.. when there is a UK blob.. I will do my best to be in it... one day I hope to change that, but for now.. as a noob, that's what I got to do.
Also both the amarr and mini militia chats are full of people, but very few join the fight.. hell they even shoot each other to get LP from the plex.




You will never learn anything with an attitude like this. 6 million SP is more than plenty. Your ships are as good as you get them, if that is insufficient, improve your character skills in the appropriate areas. While you do, enjoy the fact that your clones are cheap, and so are you ships, and you can lose dozens and be back for more lessons, because those are cheap as well, but very valuable to you as a player.

You want to learn PVP? Go do it.
SeaSaw
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-01-13 20:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: SeaSaw
senior moment wrote:
Just a note, some of us who warp off at the first sign of trouble are not all there to farm. I am in FW to learn PVP, but my 6 mil SP is no mach for the hardened amarr like Cynthia, dan and Flyingpocket.. they may all be the same for all I know. I do not fit stabs to my ships.. So when I see them on dscan i will warp off.
At least I feel I contributed something to the effort. and yes.. when there is a UK blob.. I will do my best to be in it... one day I hope to change that, but for now.. as a noob, that's what I got to do.
Also both the amarr and mini militia chats are full of people, but very few join the fight.. hell they even shoot each other to get LP from the plex.




Good Senior Moment;

You would make a better contribution to FW and learn more about PvP if you would fit 2wcs to a rifter or merlin and go sit in a novice or small plex in one of the hot-spot systems. If you stick to the same system you will learn who is there all-the-time, and who is passing through. Let single players in very fast ships get close enough to tackle you. See how strong their attack is, and warp away when you think the time is right. You won't get any kills this way, but you get plenty of experience about the different fits, you kill lots of drones--and you get lots of tears.

You won't need a new ship very often, and you will earn big bucks too! Sooner or later one of the players who knows PvP will realize they can't keep using the same fit on you. This will be your part of teaching others to PvP.

your humble servent
SeaSaw
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#28 - 2013-01-13 20:52:38 UTC
senior moment wrote:
Just a note, some of us who warp off at the first sign of trouble are not all there to farm. I am in FW to learn PVP, but my 6 mil SP is no mach for the hardened amarr like Cynthia, dan and Flyingpocket.. they may all be the same for all I know. I do not fit stabs to my ships.. So when I see them on dscan i will warp off.
At least I feel I contributed something to the effort. and yes.. when there is a UK blob.. I will do my best to be in it... one day I hope to change that, but for now.. as a noob, that's what I got to do.
Also both the amarr and mini militia chats are full of people, but very few join the fight.. hell they even shoot each other to get LP from the plex.





No problem SM. There is nothing wrong with that. I used to do that as well when I first started and flew around in my active tanked kestrel capturing plexes. Take your time and have fun with the game. Anyone who curses you for warping off has self esteem issues.

The problem with faction war is not that you do what you do. The problem is what you are doing is actually the best way to win occupancy.

I think you might agree that after you learn how to pvp and have skillpoints and isk you will hope that you will then be able to make a larger contribution to the war effort. But that is not the case. No matter how skilled you are at pvp you will not really be more valuable to your militia's efforts to gain sov than doing what you are doing now. Hiding in plexes in backwater systems with no one there and warping off at the first sign of trouble is the most effective strategy for fw sov warfare. There really is no room for improvement than doing what your doing right now.

Again ccp was given a good way to make fw sov warfare something where pvp skill would count for something. But they declined in favor of their hide and plex mechanic.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#29 - 2013-01-13 21:21:31 UTC
timer reset should happen when the contester leaves the plex or cloaks. Since if he can not stay inside he can not hold the plex and therefore contest/decontest.

(not on entering or something)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

jjohnpaul xvii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-01-14 11:00:20 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:


No, I will not.

I hate the fact that I need those alts, because out of the 200 players online, 190 wants to sit in station, with dozens of them actually being payed by the enemy.

You know exactly who are the ones in Amarr Militia who never had problems with casually fleeting up with the minmatar, or being in same channels as them, talking blatant lies..........



These are my favourite bits.

Your defo not mad though are you? Or taking it all a bit too serious or anything? Nope. Your 100% grounded, and well rounded individual.

NOM.

x
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#31 - 2013-01-14 13:38:49 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:


No, I will not.

I hate the fact that I need those alts, because out of the 200 players online, 190 wants to sit in station...


What only ten people like this activity?

If only they knew how much fun it is to multibox alts while they play "hide and plex" fw occupancy.

You're sort of proving the point that ccp failed to make plexing fun.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#32 - 2013-01-14 13:51:53 UTC
to get rid of farmers ... get rid of the tier system ....and cut the lp store profit .... farmers will vanish ....

reverse timers etc are useless there are tons of farmable systems ..... and second level of farming is running missions on high tiers.
Slade Antonius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Pen Is Out
#33 - 2013-01-14 15:52:25 UTC
senior moment wrote:
Just a note, some of us who warp off at the first sign of trouble are not all there to farm. I am in FW to learn PVP, but my 6 mil SP is no mach for the hardened amarr like Cynthia, dan and Flyingpocket.. they may all be the same for all I know. I do not fit stabs to my ships.. So when I see them on dscan i will warp off.
At least I feel I contributed something to the effort. and yes.. when there is a UK blob.. I will do my best to be in it... one day I hope to change that, but for now.. as a noob, that's what I got to do.
Also both the amarr and mini militia chats are full of people, but very few join the fight.. hell they even shoot each other to get LP from the plex.





Of course there is nothing wrong with warping off sometimes. For example, I warped my frigate out of a plex this morning when a dessie came in. Common sense says that you should run when faced with a fight you can't win and/or you are facing a fit that counters yours very well. However, the only real way to learn what does and doesn't work and how to PVP is to do it. Don't forget that there are a bunch of noobs on the other side too. Take some fights against other T1 frigs and get blown up until you start winning some of them and figure out some fits that work for you.

Like someone said above, 6M is plenty of sp and if you planned well you should be able to fit one or two ships very solidly. And really if you are doing any amount of plexing, buying and fitting T1 frigs with a mix of meta and T2 modules should not be a problem isk-wise. A couple hours of plexing for Amarr at tier 2 will buy me a fleet of merlins to play with and it will be even better for you at tier 3.

Never ever fit stabs though. It gimps your fit and you learn nothing about how to fit a ship to win the fight. If you fit stabs, you are admitting defeat from the start and basically telling yourself that you don't have the skill to fight or the willingness to learn how to.



Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#34 - 2013-01-14 18:32:50 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
OP

The reason people keep doing plexes without pvp is because they can get away with it by hiding in back systems. Timer countback is one option. But its not the best option. the best option would be to let militias know where their complexes are being attacked.


This wouldn't help at all.

A. I regularly report people plexing in far off systems. Rarely, if ever does anybody respond. If I add that the plexers are stabbed farmers, nobody will respond. No one wants to spend 5-10 minutes moving to some back system only to see a plexer warp off.

B. It is not a valid strategy to counter the farmer's effect on occupancy, as I explained, you are merely exchanging time. There is no difference between chasing off farmers in a back system or just going there and plexing.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#35 - 2013-01-14 18:37:10 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
to get rid of farmers ... get rid of the tier system ....and cut the lp store profit .... farmers will vanish ....

reverse timers etc are useless there are tons of farmable systems ..... and second level of farming is running missions on high tiers.


You didn't read the OP very well. This is not to remove farming, farmers are a part of EVE. This is merely to at least give people that avoid fights a disincentive to do so, and to give people who try and get fights an incentive to do so. I don't care if the people that warp out are farmers or not, merely that not staying and fighting should have some kind of penalty.

This penalty will have a side-effect of reducing farming, but I don't think (and don't want) to stop it.
Solosky
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-01-14 20:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Solosky
Antares 04 wrote:
isk gains should never be what attracts people to FW. PVP should.


EVE PvP is slow and boring - otherwise every pilot would join RvB. Meanwhile virtual money are much more fun because they are indicator of toon's progress and at the same time can be used to purchase stuff. Also regardless of what people think war is a big business (check in-game menu for location of "faction warfare" bookmark) and it's always about money and if there is anything what may attract people to FW - it's easy money for noobs who are not skilled and equipped enough to farm sleepers for 90mil per hour or rats in null belts for up to 150mill per hour (Machariel with assigned fighters).

disclaimer: I don't participate in FW because for me it's overcomplicated and is too cheap to compensate standing hit. Also I expect it will be nerfed even more after all this whine about farmers. CCP like nerfs.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#37 - 2013-01-14 20:24:18 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
OP

The reason people keep doing plexes without pvp is because they can get away with it by hiding in back systems. Timer countback is one option. But its not the best option. the best option would be to let militias know where their complexes are being attacked.


This wouldn't help at all.

A. I regularly report people plexing in far off systems. Rarely, if ever does anybody respond. If I add that the plexers are stabbed farmers, nobody will respond. No one wants to spend 5-10 minutes moving to some back system only to see a plexer warp off.



It would completely change the game. The smart militias would not all group together in one or 2 ssytems. They would break the fw front into about 7 different zones and plex/cover them. If were in kamela and saw someone was plexing sosala you could go fight them. But you wouldn't go 10 jumps out to chase someone. Smart Militias would communicate asking who is covering each of the plexes that is under attack and group/position their pilots to most effectively defend their space and attack the enemies space.

Also each person who plexed would not keep trying to plex thinking they could get away with the current hide and plex tactics. There would be no more hiding and they would know it. They would know that they will almost certainly be attacked and so would not try to take plexes unless they were ready to fight.

This would completely change the game into a fast paced chaotic pvp war.


Merdaneth wrote:

B. It is not a valid strategy to counter the farmer's effect on occupancy, as I explained, you are merely exchanging time. There is no difference between chasing off farmers in a back system or just going there and plexing.


That is why I agree some sort of penalty for warping off when an enemy lands on grid (or on grid with the accel gate to your plex) should be applied. Say knock off 3 minutes or so.

The problem with the straight up countback that hans proposed is that if you leave your plex to fight some enemy plexing right next to you, your own timer starts to run down! The penalty should only apply if an enemy (or neutral?) lands on grid or on grid with your accel gate before you warp off.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#38 - 2013-01-14 20:52:06 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
...The problem with the straight up countback that hans proposed is that if you leave your plex to fight some enemy plexing right next to you, your own timer starts to run down! The penalty should only apply if an enemy (or neutral?) lands on grid or on grid with your accel gate before you warp off.

So an ADHD afflicted PvP'er-Plexer who chooses option one which is to get some pew, loot, bragging rights and tears should not in your opinion have to make any sacrifice for all that? Kind of greedy don't you think? Big smile

Would of course also work if auto-run only engages after a button has been contested, but whatever floats your boat Smile
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#39 - 2013-01-14 21:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
ground ctrl wrote:


It would completely change the game. The smart militias would not all group together in one or 2 ssytems. They would break the fw front into about 7 different zones and plex/cover them. If were in kamela and saw someone was plexing sosala you could go fight them. But you wouldn't go 10 jumps out to chase someone. Smart Militias would communicate asking who is covering each of the plexes that is under attack and group/position their pilots to most effectively defend their space and attack the enemies space.

Also each person who plexed would not keep trying to plex thinking they could get away with the current hide and plex tactics. There would be no more hiding and they would know it. They would know that they will almost certainly be attacked and so would not try to take plexes unless they were ready to fight.

This would completely change the game into a fast paced chaotic pvp war.


If you make claims you have to support it either with argument or evidence. I see neither. Just opinion isn't doing it.

Smart militias can already do what you suggest, spread out and cover different areas. You are suggesting they don't spread out because they are missing automated intel?

Have you ever tried to chase of plexers that don't want to do PvP? They simple move on to the next system if you chase them. And the next. And the next. Generating a whole load of messages of 'plex under attack'. In fact, with the implementation needing a mandatory delay of 1-5 minutes of relaying warzone information, the board would mostly red all the time, and the actual informational content would be low. It also misses another important part of intel, enemy numbers and fleet composition. Bad idea all around.

Most people that don't want to fight plex in plain sight. They simply warp out only if you try and enter their plex. The fact that you know it, or other people know they're in the plex they don't care about it as much as you think.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#40 - 2013-01-14 21:27:22 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:


It would completely change the game. The smart militias would not all group together in one or 2 ssytems. They would break the fw front into about 7 different zones and plex/cover them. If were in kamela and saw someone was plexing sosala you could go fight them. But you wouldn't go 10 jumps out to chase someone. Smart Militias would communicate asking who is covering each of the plexes that is under attack and group/position their pilots to most effectively defend their space and attack the enemies space.

Also each person who plexed would not keep trying to plex thinking they could get away with the current hide and plex tactics. There would be no more hiding and they would know it. They would know that they will almost certainly be attacked and so would not try to take plexes unless they were ready to fight.

This would completely change the game into a fast paced chaotic pvp war.


If you make claims you have to support it either with argument or evidence. I see neither. Just opinion isn't doing it.

Smart militias can already do what you suggest, spread out and cover different areas. You are suggesting they don't spread out because they are missing automated intel? .



Yes I am. If people see that a group is constantly plexing up in an area then eventually some pilots will go up there - or they will lose the system. But if you don't know if anyone is plexing 10 jumps away you wont go wandering there just to check.

Seriously think about this idea and my responses. Think especially about my response below.

Merdaneth wrote:

Have you ever tried to chase of plexers that don't want to do PvP? They simple move on to the next system if you chase them. And the next. And the next. Generating a whole load of messages of 'plex under attack'. In fact, with the implementation needing a mandatory delay of 1-5 minutes of relaying warzone information, the board would mostly red all the time, and the actual informational content would be low. It also misses another important part of intel, enemy numbers and fleet composition. Bad idea all around.

Most people that don't want to fight plex in plain sight. They simply warp out only if you try and enter their plex. The fact that you know it, or other people know they're in the plex they don't care about it as much as you think.


Under the new system there would be no chasing. You wouldn't need to chase them to see if they dock up or plex. Why? Because you don't care what they do unless they enter into a plex, and if they do that, your whole militia will be immediately notified.

Consider this: lets say I am in Todifrauan plexing and I see an enemy (lets call him "rabbit") is plexing in brin. I may go chase him out of the plex. If CCP does the countbacks right I will not lose any time on my plex because no enemy was on grid with me or my accell gate when I warped out of the plex. But if I land on grid with the rabbit or its accel gate before he warps, he will immediately lose 3 minutes of time he spent plexing. (I will gain that time)

Now lets say I sit in his plex and keep running it. He wasted 3 minutes by warping out and is continuing to waste time running to a new system. Now lets say he shows up again in another system a bit further out. If he is far from me, I would ask people in my militia comms if anyone is close to go chase him out. People in my militia could then confirm they will chase him out again. Again he will lose the 3 minutes for warping out and waste more time trying to find a "safe" place to plex. Meanwhile my militia will just keep running timers and fighting people who come into the plexes we are capping. The rabbit will be getting nowhere while our militia will keep capping plexes.


Really just think about it. It will work and make faction war great. CCP just needs to do it.