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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#141 - 2013-01-14 22:52:58 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.


The people who use them to pay for accounts are not the people that buy them from CCP. They are the people who pay ISK to buy them off the market.

Again, Plexes are SOLELY "bought" in order to sell for quick ISK in order to buy in game items.
Which doesn't make them Pay2Win.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-01-14 22:53:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


reguardless of whether or not the isk is provided in game is moot.

The is one, and only ONE way that a PLEX arrives in game.
Someone MUST pay real cash for it.

This means that using real money provides a product that is not available through any other means.

By definition, the is pay 2 win.
No it isn't. The Plex itself doesn't give you anything special. It's designed to give a months server access. That does not means it's Pay2Win. It actually mean those that don't have real life cash, can play using in game money. So quite the opposite.

Pay to win is regarding items ONLY available with cash and those items are designed to give you an advantage that cannot be gained any other means. Nothing a Plex does, can remotely be construed as that. By it's very nature, it only gives those who buy it with cash, access to other players ISK.

They need the ISK, already available in game to work. Nothing can be made instantly with them, all items must already exist.
So rather than being Pay2Win, it's Pay2GetStuffWithoutGrindingOrWaitingForISK. They are simply not the same.



Blah blah blah, anything to argue.

A plex and only be purchased with real cash. This is the only way they can arrive in game.
A player can sell them to another player, but this doesn't change the fact that they're only in game because someone paid real cash.

They can be used to attain isk, which is the life blood of Eve.

In some games SP is the most important thing to have, but in Eve, isk is everything.

It can be used to purchase anything from a t1 module to another character.

Lets look at it this way.
If we were playing WoW and I could purchase any item in game with something that I purchased with real world cash, is this not play to win?

People are so against isk farmers that sell isk for real cash, yet isn't the plex program the exact same thing?

You seem to be lost in a world of make believe where pay to win only consists of special items not available through any other means, yet items that would take a typical player months to attain, be bought through the plex program doesn't count.

You really need to stop and smell the money....
Mag's
Azn Empire
#143 - 2013-01-14 22:56:14 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be lost in a world of make believe where pay to win only consists of special items not available through any other means, yet items that would take a typical player months to attain, be bought through the plex program doesn't count.
Because that how it works and the definition of Pay2Win.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#144 - 2013-01-14 22:56:35 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

That's the beauty of it.

Players who can afford to pay CCP for game time, are able to do so.

They take this coupon, called PLEX, which is good for one month of game time on one account.
They bring it into the game. Obviously this game time is not for themselves directly.

They bring it to market, where it has value. This value is dictated by players who either invest in PLEX, or are end users who need to pay for their gameplay.
For either, the cost is determined by ratio of supply vs demand. What is a month of game time worth, in terms of in game currency?

If a lot of PLEX hits the market, prices drop. Investors are only willing to buy these with the expectations prices will again rise. They buy strictly for future profit.

Some end users simply cannot afford to pay CCP, and trade their grinding time for free play.
Some PLEX buyers are average people, not wealthy, who simply don't have the luxury of spending time grinding for ISK.

One hand washes the other.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#145 - 2013-01-14 22:57:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

That's the beauty of it.

Players who can afford to pay CCP for game time, are able to do so.

They take this coupon, called PLEX, which is good for one month of game time on one account.
They bring it into the game. Obviously this game time is not for themselves directly.

They bring it to market, where it has value. This value is dictated by players who either invest in PLEX, or are end users who need to pay for their gameplay.
For either, the cost is determined by ratio of supply vs demand. What is a month of game time worth, in terms of in game currency?

If a lot of PLEX hits the market, prices drop. Investors are only willing to buy these with the expectations prices will again rise. They buy strictly for future profit.

Some end users simply cannot afford to pay CCP, and trade their grinding time for free play.
Some PLEX buyers are average people, not wealthy, who simply don't have the luxury of spending time grinding for ISK.

One hand washes the other.
Indeed, it works perfectly in it's role.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#146 - 2013-01-14 23:03:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

That's the beauty of it.

Players who can afford to pay CCP for game time, are able to do so.

They take this coupon, called PLEX, which is good for one month of game time on one account.
They bring it into the game. Obviously this game time is not for themselves directly.

They bring it to market, where it has value. This value is dictated by players who either invest in PLEX, or are end users who need to pay for their gameplay.
For either, the cost is determined by ratio of supply vs demand. What is a month of game time worth, in terms of in game currency?

If a lot of PLEX hits the market, prices drop. Investors are only willing to buy these with the expectations prices will again rise. They buy strictly for future profit.

Some end users simply cannot afford to pay CCP, and trade their grinding time for free play.
Some PLEX buyers are average people, not wealthy, who simply don't have the luxury of spending time grinding for ISK.

One hand washes the other.
Indeed, it works perfectly in it's role.



The definition of pay to win is still the same. The plex is a pay to win item because it is an item only available by cash which allows you to essentially buy any other item in game.

The "intention" of the item is irrelevant only the use and the cause.

Your opinion is that the plex is not a pay to win item, however the definition of pay to win is very cut and dry and clear:

"Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

This is exactly what the plex does in game for those who buy it. if an item meets teh requirements for a definition then it is such.

If it looks like a duck quacks like a duck then it is a duck, even if it is a Mallard or a Egile, it is still a duck.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#147 - 2013-01-14 23:04:43 UTC
The point is that my Skill remap plan, Is NOT pay to win, because it does not give anyone an advantage over anyone.
Vince Grant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-01-14 23:07:16 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

That's the beauty of it.

Players who can afford to pay CCP for game time, are able to do so.

They take this coupon, called PLEX, which is good for one month of game time on one account.
They bring it into the game. Obviously this game time is not for themselves directly.

They bring it to market, where it has value. This value is dictated by players who either invest in PLEX, or are end users who need to pay for their gameplay.
For either, the cost is determined by ratio of supply vs demand. What is a month of game time worth, in terms of in game currency?

If a lot of PLEX hits the market, prices drop. Investors are only willing to buy these with the expectations prices will again rise. They buy strictly for future profit.

Some end users simply cannot afford to pay CCP, and trade their grinding time for free play.
Some PLEX buyers are average people, not wealthy, who simply don't have the luxury of spending time grinding for ISK.

One hand washes the other.


But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#149 - 2013-01-14 23:09:35 UTC
Vince Grant wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

That's the beauty of it.

Players who can afford to pay CCP for game time, are able to do so.

They take this coupon, called PLEX, which is good for one month of game time on one account.
They bring it into the game. Obviously this game time is not for themselves directly.

They bring it to market, where it has value. This value is dictated by players who either invest in PLEX, or are end users who need to pay for their gameplay.
For either, the cost is determined by ratio of supply vs demand. What is a month of game time worth, in terms of in game currency?

If a lot of PLEX hits the market, prices drop. Investors are only willing to buy these with the expectations prices will again rise. They buy strictly for future profit.

Some end users simply cannot afford to pay CCP, and trade their grinding time for free play.
Some PLEX buyers are average people, not wealthy, who simply don't have the luxury of spending time grinding for ISK.

One hand washes the other.


But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..


They are trolls trying to derail the thread, but they succeeding in proving that Plexes are Pay to win, and this skillmap plan is Not. so.. meh.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#150 - 2013-01-14 23:12:24 UTC
Interesting.

Let's pretend that PLEX do not exist.

So, if you paid for an EVE account, and gave it to your friend to use exclusively, this is paying to win?
Let's stipulate that you are following the EULA, and you reimburse him. He takes your money and spends it for his account, avoiding any legal issues.

BUT!

He knows you work hard for that money. He knows he is only playing because you are paying for him to.
He is a decent player, so in game where he is more capable financially, he gives you a comparable amount of ISK.

Now, you have ISK to use in game, despite the fact you did not have time to grind it directly. You are happy.
Your friend is in EVE playing, despite the fact he did not have the money to pay for an account. He is happy.

All CCP did was sell the two of you game time. This is their business model, and it is expected of them.
This remains unchanged with the presence of PLEX. CCP never promises it to be worth more than game time.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#151 - 2013-01-14 23:18:49 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Interesting.

Let's pretend that PLEX do not exist.

So, if you paid for an EVE account, and gave it to your friend to use exclusively, this is paying to win?
Let's stipulate that you are following the EULA, and you reimburse him. He takes your money and spends it for his account, avoiding any legal issues.

BUT!

He knows you work hard for that money. He knows he is only playing because you are paying for him to.
He is a decent player, so in game where he is more capable financially, he gives you a comparable amount of ISK.

Now, you have ISK to use in game, despite the fact you did not have time to grind it directly. You are happy.
Your friend is in EVE playing, despite the fact he did not have the money to pay for an account. He is happy.

All CCP did was sell the two of you game time. This is their business model, and it is expected of them.
This remains unchanged with the presence of PLEX. CCP never promises it to be worth more than game time.


You can try and convoluted it all you want, A duck is still a Duck and pay to win is still pay to win.

Besides your example is irrelevant and not even remotely the same principals or actions.

An example which fits however is simply:

You buy an item only available through paying real money, You sell this item in game or trade it for a more useful or better item, without the need to work or earn said item in game.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#152 - 2013-01-14 23:19:01 UTC
Vince Grant wrote:
But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..

This character already existed.

it's points in skills were earned by legitimate means.

The character was already winning, in as much as it could.

All the PLEX did was shift who was controlling it. No new item entered the game capable of blowing up ships more quickly, or of play stopping ability.
That character was there all along.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#153 - 2013-01-14 23:20:35 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vince Grant wrote:
But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..

This character already existed.

it's points in skills were earned by legitimate means.

The character was already winning, in as much as it could.

All the PLEX did was shift who was controlling it. No new item entered the game capable of blowing up ships more quickly, or of play stopping ability.
That character was there all along.


Now you really are trolling.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#154 - 2013-01-14 23:21:04 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
You can try and convoluted it all you want, A duck is still a Duck and pay to win is still pay to win.

Besides your example is irrelevant and not even remotely the same principals or actions.

An example which fits however is simply:

You buy an item only available through paying real money, You sell this item in game or trade it for a more useful or better item, without the need to work or earn said item in game.

But the ISK for that PLEX IS earned inside the game.

It takes just as long as any other ISK to grind, no shortcuts exist.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#155 - 2013-01-14 23:21:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Something you all are forgetting is something I mentioned in my very first post, which negates every single complaint about this system on this thread.


: You can only remap ONCE, maybe TWICE.... Per.....

"YEAR."


So there is no repeated FOTM threats, no spamming reskills, no nothing, you have the option to reskill, once per year, just like the attributes. This forces you to suffer with your choices a full year before you get another opportunity to reskill, just like with your attributes.

It also prevents every other issue listed in this thread.


I might even have supported this, had you said once every 5 or more years or better still "only one single respec per character ever".

But once or twice a year is just like saying anytime.

Your decisions must have consequences!


A year is a long time in eve thats 2 Full Expansions from CCP and 2-6 rebalancing patches. In my opinion that is a ton of reasons (Not to mention a ton of changes to the game itself) for once a year at least.

A year is nothing. Some days ago I went to Jita and got me fuel blocks for the next 8760 hours. And I'm considering to get another 8760 hours so that I do not have to go there so soon again Lol.

Remove standings and insurance.
Vince Grant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-01-14 23:23:51 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vince Grant wrote:
But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..

This character already existed.

it's points in skills were earned by legitimate means.

The character was already winning, in as much as it could.

All the PLEX did was shift who was controlling it. No new item entered the game capable of blowing up ships more quickly, or of play stopping ability.
That character was there all along.


So we agree that there is no such thing as pay2win in EVE? Excellent.. Now back on track.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#157 - 2013-01-14 23:23:55 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vince Grant wrote:
But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..

This character already existed.

it's points in skills were earned by legitimate means.

The character was already winning, in as much as it could.

All the PLEX did was shift who was controlling it. No new item entered the game capable of blowing up ships more quickly, or of play stopping ability.
That character was there all along.


Now you really are trolling.

No, I am pointing out a fact.

Pay2Win implies bringing a new item into the game for cash. Cash from outside the game, being used to gain an item not available by comparable means from within the game, if at all.

The ISK was made through someone's hard work. That character was skilled up according to the rules.

CCP created neither, and both were obtained by means inside the game available to all players equally.

This means no pay to win.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#158 - 2013-01-14 23:24:13 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Something you all are forgetting is something I mentioned in my very first post, which negates every single complaint about this system on this thread.


: You can only remap ONCE, maybe TWICE.... Per.....

"YEAR."


So there is no repeated FOTM threats, no spamming reskills, no nothing, you have the option to reskill, once per year, just like the attributes. This forces you to suffer with your choices a full year before you get another opportunity to reskill, just like with your attributes.

It also prevents every other issue listed in this thread.


I might even have supported this, had you said once every 5 or more years or better still "only one single respec per character ever".

But once or twice a year is just like saying anytime.

Your decisions must have consequences!


A year is a long time in eve thats 2 Full Expansions from CCP and 2-6 rebalancing patches. In my opinion that is a ton of reasons (Not to mention a ton of changes to the game itself) for once a year at least.

A year is nothing. Some days ago I went to Jita and got me fuel blocks for the next 8760 hours. And I'm considering to get another 8760 hours so that I do not have to go there so soon again Lol.


lol That's a lot of fuel. What are you fueling? A Planet?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#159 - 2013-01-14 23:25:39 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vince Grant wrote:
But you're forgetting, that a 2 day old character, can buy enough plexes and sell them, to be able to afford a new character, that is possibly 2-3 years old, thus skipping skilltraining. Pay2win in effect.

However i lost it why we're discussing this here. Its about SP resetting. That is free..

This character already existed.

it's points in skills were earned by legitimate means.

The character was already winning, in as much as it could.

All the PLEX did was shift who was controlling it. No new item entered the game capable of blowing up ships more quickly, or of play stopping ability.
That character was there all along.


Now you really are trolling.

No, I am pointing out a fact.

Pay2Win implies bringing a new item into the game for cash. Cash from outside the game, being used to gain an item not available by comparable means from within the game, if at all.

The ISK was made through someone's hard work. That character was skilled up according to the rules.

CCP created neither, and both were obtained by means inside the game available to all players equally.

This means no pay to win.



Wait.. Wait you might have a point......

ehhh uuhh....

Nope still trolling

CCP created everything in game and the game itself. Not the players the players simply use what CCP designed.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#160 - 2013-01-14 23:29:18 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
No, I am pointing out a fact.

Pay2Win implies bringing a new item into the game for cash. Cash from outside the game, being used to gain an item not available by comparable means from within the game, if at all.

The ISK was made through someone's hard work. That character was skilled up according to the rules.

CCP created neither, and both were obtained by means inside the game available to all players equally.

This means no pay to win.



Wait.. Wait you might have a point......

ehhh uuhh....

Nope still trolling

CCP created everything in game and the game itself. Not the players the players simply use what CCP designed.

Now who is trolling?

The point of pay to win is that the item being purchased is not available through normal gameplay comparable to outside effort, assuming the item is available at all.

ISK and characters are specifically created by player effort, and if sold are done so at player discretion and cost.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...