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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#121 - 2013-01-14 19:05:28 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I agree with this, and in my experience 1 tengue can kill 4-7 other ships solo even if they are battleships and Battlecrusiers.

However:


What does this have to do with Skill Remap?

Because if the ship is not facing an obvious nerf worth refunding the skill points invested, the request has no legs by using it as an example of points that will need to be refunded.



This is not about a single ship, it is also about players who ahve been playing for years and have skills they never use due to nerfs or changes in the game over the years as the one poster pointed out.

It also about helping New players by allowing them to fix their mistakes while they learn about the skill system, thus retaining more players by allowing a system which is friendly to the learning curve and decreases its sharpness into something more tolerable and manageable.

This request has tons of valid reasons which have been posted repeatedly in this thread by multiple people. and there is a Definite and Obvious need for it.

It is a System which "Will" happen eventually". The Question is simply when, and How.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#122 - 2013-01-14 19:05:46 UTC
Malcorian,

Consider for a moment the reality:

The person who buys the PLEX with ISK in game, is richer in game than the one who sells it.

So is this game then Free to Play by definition? Or is being rich in game unfair advantage vs people who don't have 8 hours per day to play?


Anyway, back to your original post, CCP has refunded and will refund skill points when skills are removed from game. Ship balancing does not remove any skills from game, and therefore does not affect your character or training in any way.

Quote:
Reading these forums for years and watching the game develop has been fun and interesting, however, it has also been a serious pain in the ass when they change certain aspect which force the player to spend months and sometimes years retraining, such as the nerfs they are giving the BC's in the upcoming patch will cause.


You need to provide some kind of proof about which aspects of the BC rebalancing result in years worth of unusable skillpoints. I personally think you are just grossly exaggerating this and making wild claims out of your posterior.





.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#123 - 2013-01-14 19:08:08 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

This request has tons of valid reasons which have been posted repeatedly in this thread by multiple people. and there is a Definite and Obvious need for it.

It is a System which "Will" happen eventually". The Question is simply when, and How.


No, it will never happen, because there are no reasons for. Not in this thread, out of all places. Characters don't go back in time and change history in EVE.

.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#124 - 2013-01-14 19:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Something you all are forgetting is something I mentioned in my very first post, which negates every single complaint about this system on this thread.


: You can only remap ONCE, maybe TWICE.... Per.....

"YEAR."


So there is no repeated FOTM threats, no spamming reskills, no nothing, you have the option to reskill, once per year, just like the attributes. This forces you to suffer with your choices a full year before you get another opportunity to reskill, just like with your attributes.

It also prevents every other issue listed in this thread.


I might even have supported this, had you said once every 5 or more years or better still "only one single respec per character ever".

But once or twice a year is just like saying anytime.

Your decisions must have consequences!

Remove standings and insurance.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#125 - 2013-01-14 19:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Something you all are forgetting is something I mentioned in my very first post, which negates every single complaint about this system on this thread.


: You can only remap ONCE, maybe TWICE.... Per.....

"YEAR."


So there is no repeated FOTM threats, no spamming reskills, no nothing, you have the option to reskill, once per year, just like the attributes. This forces you to suffer with your choices a full year before you get another opportunity to reskill, just like with your attributes.

It also prevents every other issue listed in this thread.


I might even have supported this, had you said once every 5 or more years or better still "only one single respec per character ever".

But once or twice a year is just like saying anytime.

Your decisions must have consequences!


A year is a long time in eve thats 2 Full Expansions from CCP and 2-6 rebalancing patches. In my opinion that is a ton of reasons (Not to mention a ton of changes to the game itself) for once a year at least.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#126 - 2013-01-14 20:32:10 UTC
This is a stupid idea.

For one, this game has no skill cap max level and similar bullshit and nothing preventing you from crosstraining, and to be honest when you train all your support skills to 5, gunnery support skills etc, especially now while BC are not yet racial skill its really not that hard to crosstrain. So if you are a whore and chase flavor of the month op ships that eventually get nerfed spend some time to train a new weapon system.

Also this will completely destroy remaps and whole attribute point system. Need leadership skills but dont have a free remap? Train ships you dont use or something else with your per/wp remap and respec those sp to charisma skills. Max sp per hour with no planning or effort.

All in all, this is the dumbest idea that would completely ruin the game, not my problem if you are too stupid to plan your training and chase flavor of the month ships. Plan ahead and stop posting these idiotic threads. Every 15 days some kid posts his idea about respecs etc. No one wants to hear ideas from a guy that cant even plan his skills properly.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#127 - 2013-01-14 20:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
I will pop in real quick and point out that...

- when ships that abused the mechanics during the "nano-age" were nerfed... no one was reimbursed.
- when Gallente ships were rendered "sub-par" due to the many changes to made to webs, scrams, and tanking... no one was reimbursed.
- each time the Nalfagar was revised and altered, making it either better or worse to some people... no one was reimbursed.
- When Motherships were buffed and renamed Supercarriers, rendering Dreds all but obsolete... no one was reimbursed.
- When Supercarriers were whacked hard with the nerf-bat a year or so later... no one was reimbursed.
- When Dreadnoughts and Titans lost their ability to field point defense (drones)... no one was reimbursed.
- When Titans were repeatedly hit with the nerf-bat... no one was reimbursed.

Changes happen. People adapted. If you chase FOTM because you believe "anything other than FOTM isn't worth flying" then you should EXPECT to be nerfed at some point.
If you don't... I honestly don't know what to say.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
This is not about a single ship, it is also about players who ahve been playing for years and have skills they never use due to nerfs or changes in the game over the years as the one poster pointed out.

I make no secret that I used to mine when I started the game. After a few months I gave up that profession and focused almost exclusively on combat. I never touched any of my mining skills again for almost 4 years.
Then mining barges got buffed. Bots got banned. Mineral prices skyrocketed. And I found out that the Procurer could easily field a 70k ehp buffer tank. I bought a couple of barges, fitted them out PvP style, took them out, and started mining... either in belts if I wanted to bait and kill some random frigate or grav sites if I wanted good ore.

Who knew that skills I trained and abandoned when I was a newbie would come in handy again several years after the fact?

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
It also about helping New players by allowing them to fix their mistakes while they learn about the skill system, thus retaining more players by allowing a system which is friendly to the learning curve and decreases its sharpness into something more tolerable and manageable.

As I pointed out above... no skill are "mistakes." Ever. There are simply "skills that are useful right now and/or in this situation" and "skills that are currently not useful."

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
This request has tons of valid reasons which have been posted repeatedly in this thread by multiple people. and there is a Definite and Obvious need for it.

All I've seen you do is whine "I trained to use 'the best' and now it isn't 'the best' anymore. I don't like this and want to move my SP the next 'best' ship."

How did you Veterans start?
Vince Grant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-01-14 21:03:02 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


You can slide it how ever you like, When you pay real money with the inevitable outcome of getting "Better gear" over people who can't afford to, and must "Grind" for it,

It is a Pay to win Game by Definition.

There is no "Grey area" to it.

As I said before adding this feature has nothing to do withpaying to win as it does not give you any advantage over anyone else since everyone can remap their skills just like you.

UNLIKE - Buying a Plex/ISK which Everyone IS NOT able to do or afford.

Plexes create an "Unfair" advantage for people who can Aford them, VS people who can not afford them.

Skill remap is Fair for Everyone, Since EVERYONE can do it.
You can avoid the facts all you like. The fact is they are not gaining better gear, than anyone else can gain.

Pay2Win is very distinctive. It's payment with real life cash, for items you are unable to gain any other way. A Plex is not the same thing. Period.

A skill remap on the other hand, is ideal for older players and screws over the new. It breaks the game for reasons already listed.


Character trading is also ideal for older players, however everyone who has enough real money, can get an advantage. Just buy lots of plexes, sell those and buy a new character. All this within the first week you play. That is pay2win, and therefore, plex should be removed. Right?

But how does it break the game? There is so far no reasons at all, except butthurt newbies that tries to fight this. Why does it bother you so much, that players get a once-in-a-lifetime skill reset? Does it break your game? Does it make players magically better? Ofc it doesn't. Its a helping feature to those that want to trim their characters.

You really counter your own arguments over and over again, by saying that it benefits older estabilished players the most, not realizing that the isk for plex feature in this game, only serves wealthy players, not the people that have played for a couple of months.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-01-14 21:11:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:



I agree with this Post, just a few corrections:

* Marauders are not capitals, the Battleships and you can use them in Highsec.

On t3's -

Yes they will get nurfed this is specifically why:

Proteus - Can have a carrier sized tank exceeding 500,000 EFHP
Legion - can maintain 600+ DPS while having a Carrier sized tank of 260,000+ EFHP + 80 - 90% resists across the board ( I fly one of these fits fro incursions)
Tengu - With Certain fits this ship is unkillable except by 10 v 1 Odds. ( My friend flies one and can attest to its effectiveness, he engages entire fleets just for the lols.)
Loki - Lesser Version of the Tengu, More utility, just as hard to kill.

The t3's "When fit correctly" are basically Mini Capital ships which run around at the speed of a cruiser with the sig radius of one, You better believe they will get nerfed to hell.



You misunderstood me on the initial part of my comment dealing with the Marauder.

I was not stating that a Marauder was a capital, just merely stating that I had spent enough time in game to be almost fully trained for a Marauder before I knew that capitals weren't allowed in high sec.

This would have been close to a 2 year span of time. Granted I spent most of my early days on my main account in an alt corp, but the point is still valid.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#130 - 2013-01-14 21:14:32 UTC
Vince Grant wrote:
Character trading is also ideal for older players, however everyone who has enough real money, can get an advantage. Just buy lots of plexes, sell those and buy a new character. All this within the first week you play. That is pay2win, and therefore, plex should be removed. Right?

But how does it break the game? There is so far no reasons at all, except butthurt newbies that tries to fight this. Why does it bother you so much, that players get a once-in-a-lifetime skill reset? Does it break your game? Does it make players magically better? Ofc it doesn't. Its a helping feature to those that want to trim their characters.

You really counter your own arguments over and over again, by saying that it benefits older estabilished players the most, not realizing that the isk for plex feature in this game, only serves wealthy players, not the people that have played for a couple of months.

If PLEX were something sold for advantage by CCP, you might have a point.

After all, ISK is how you get in game items, and CCP is selling you ISK, right?
...except they aren't.

Selling you ISK, that is. The ISK comes from players, who earn it.
Regardless of how it may be advertised...
You are NOT gauranteed a return on your cash investment on that PLEX. It is possible that you might get a good price in the market, but that price is offered by other players, NOT by CCP.

You still need the time spent on a paying account to get the skills, regardless of whether you are logged in.
(Yes, we all know about selling characters too, someone spent the time training those skills and got paid for it too)

If you pay members of your corp in ISK to help you do something in game, like run a complex, are you paying to win then as well?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#131 - 2013-01-14 21:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
This is a stupid idea.

For one, this game has no skill cap max level and similar bullshit and nothing preventing you from crosstraining, and to be honest when you train all your support skills to 5, gunnery support skills etc, especially now while BC are not yet racial skill its really not that hard to crosstrain. So if you are a ***** and chase flavor of the month op ships that eventually get nerfed spend some time to train a new weapon system.

Also this will completely destroy remaps and whole attribute point system. Need leadership skills but dont have a free remap? Train ships you dont use or something else with your per/wp remap and respec those sp to charisma skills. Max sp per hour with no planning or effort.

All in all, this is the dumbest idea that would completely ruin the game, not my problem if you are too stupid to plan your training and chase flavor of the month ships. Plan ahead and stop posting these idiotic threads. Every 15 days some kid posts his idea about respecs etc. No one wants to hear ideas from a guy that cant even plan his skills properly.




Another poster has already provided evidence which Invalidates your points in this post.

but I will go over them again.

Attribute points will not be useless -

* You still have to train your skills to begin with, this is not giving you extra SP. Therefore all attributes and training will have consequences and be determined by your choices.

* Again, you all made the same points and it will ruin the game comments about the Attributes Remap. Guess what? It hasn't ruined the game.

* If you don't want to use the skill remap, Don't use it. Play your game, how YOU want to play it, and stop worrying about how others want to play theirs.

* As another poster pointed out the % of players who would have any of the issues listed in this thread in negligible under 5% (If effected AT ALL), However the people who would be positively effected is over 95%.

* You can't skill for battleships if you don't have enough SP trained to put into those skills. SP does not "Magically" appear, you have to train for it to begin with in order to have it to reallocate.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-01-14 21:22:39 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

MAYBE they will be nerfed.

The fact that each race has one, and they have penalties no other ship needs to deal with, creates a possible impression they represent their own classification, that is exclusive.
From that, it could be suggested that they are not intended to be compared directly to anything except other t3s.

It is also a point that these vessels have a definitive relationship with WH space, in creation and usage.

Forget popularity for a moment, and consider if they are reasonably balanced. They are only considered cruisers as the easiest means to relate to them, and that probably from their relative size.

And for balance, they only need to be possible to counter by available means. Even if that means using other t3s to do it.


No... CCP does not balance the game based on ship classes as you have suggested.

Sure, the classes need to be balanced in a way to where every ship in a classification is comperable to another, however, they must also be balanced in comperison to other classes of ships.

For instance, I could take a frigate and give it 2k dps with 500k EHP as long as other frigates were balanced in the same manner.
This would make them extremely too powerful compared to other classes of ship.


So, when it comes to t3's, sure, they're relatively balanced in comparison to each other, but considering they're a cruiser sized vessel with battleship capabilities and the possible utilities of t2 ships would lead me to believe that based on their capabilities in comparison to other class ships would mean that they're not balanced.

I mean, my tengu ran lvl 4 missions much better than any tech 1 bs by leaps and bounds. It even went as far as outperforming Marauders in tank, range, sensor strength, speed, mobility...well...pretty much everything except dps, though the tengu had more effective dps due to medium weapons.
Vince Grant
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-01-14 21:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Vince Grant
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Vince Grant wrote:
Character trading is also ideal for older players, however everyone who has enough real money, can get an advantage. Just buy lots of plexes, sell those and buy a new character. All this within the first week you play. That is pay2win, and therefore, plex should be removed. Right?

But how does it break the game? There is so far no reasons at all, except butthurt newbies that tries to fight this. Why does it bother you so much, that players get a once-in-a-lifetime skill reset? Does it break your game? Does it make players magically better? Ofc it doesn't. Its a helping feature to those that want to trim their characters.

You really counter your own arguments over and over again, by saying that it benefits older estabilished players the most, not realizing that the isk for plex feature in this game, only serves wealthy players, not the people that have played for a couple of months.

If PLEX were something sold for advantage by CCP, you might have a point.

After all, ISK is how you get in game items, and CCP is selling you ISK, right?
...except they aren't.

Selling you ISK, that is. The ISK comes from players, who earn it.
Regardless of how it may be advertised...
You are NOT gauranteed a return on your cash investment on that PLEX. It is possible that you might get a good price in the market, but that price is offered by other players, NOT by CCP.

You still need the time spent on a paying account to get the skills, regardless of whether you are logged in.
(Yes, we all know about selling characters too, someone spent the time training those skills and got paid for it too)

If you pay members of your corp in ISK to help you do something in game, like run a complex, are you paying to win then as well?


They are sold as an advantage. The real world wealthy players can easily afford those plex's and convert them to isk. When you have enough isk, you can buy a new character. Only the depth of your RL pockets sets the limit of how many SP your new character has. This is pay2win, and should be stopped. According to those who are against the once-in-a-lifetime SP reset, that are free for everyone to use.

There is no valid reason to oppose this, except for being butthurt over not having enough SP's to make use of it.. Yet.

Edit: There is no fixed price for plexes, but ever since they got introduced, they have kept a price above the introduction lvl. Afaik that is. And there are a lot of buyers out there, so getting them sold is not a problem.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#134 - 2013-01-14 21:44:15 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
I will pop in real quick and point out that...

- when ships that abused the mechanics during the "nano-age" were nerfed... no one was reimbursed.
- when Gallente ships were rendered "sub-par" due to the many changes to made to webs, scrams, and tanking... no one was reimbursed.
- each time the Nalfagar was revised and altered, making it either better or worse to some people... no one was reimbursed.
- When Motherships were buffed and renamed Supercarriers, rendering Dreds all but obsolete... no one was reimbursed.
- When Supercarriers were whacked hard with the nerf-bat a year or so later... no one was reimbursed.
- When Dreadnoughts and Titans lost their ability to field point defense (drones)... no one was reimbursed.
- When Titans were repeatedly hit with the nerf-bat... no one was reimbursed.

Changes happen. People adapted. If you chase FOTM because you believe "anything other than FOTM isn't worth flying" then you should EXPECT to be nerfed at some point.
If you don't... I honestly don't know what to say.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
This is not about a single ship, it is also about players who ahve been playing for years and have skills they never use due to nerfs or changes in the game over the years as the one poster pointed out.

I make no secret that I used to mine when I started the game. After a few months I gave up that profession and focused almost exclusively on combat. I never touched any of my mining skills again for almost 4 years.
Then mining barges got buffed. Bots got banned. Mineral prices skyrocketed. And I found out that the Procurer could easily field a 70k ehp buffer tank. I bought a couple of barges, fitted them out PvP style, took them out, and started mining... either in belts if I wanted to bait and kill some random frigate or grav sites if I wanted good ore.

Who knew that skills I trained and abandoned when I was a newbie would come in handy again several years after the fact?

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
It also about helping New players by allowing them to fix their mistakes while they learn about the skill system, thus retaining more players by allowing a system which is friendly to the learning curve and decreases its sharpness into something more tolerable and manageable.

As I pointed out above... no skill are "mistakes." Ever. There are simply "skills that are useful right now and/or in this situation" and "skills that are currently not useful."

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
This request has tons of valid reasons which have been posted repeatedly in this thread by multiple people. and there is a Definite and Obvious need for it.

All I've seen you do is whine "I trained to use 'the best' and now it isn't 'the best' anymore. I don't like this and want to move my SP the next 'best' ship."


These are also all examples of your view points on how "you" and why you specifically play the game the way you do.

Just because you personally would not find this remap Useful, does not mean that no one else will either. Read this thread, there are more people who want this remap then not. and generally the same 3-4 people debating why it should not be in game, while new people who think its a good idea post every day and begin defending that it should be in game.

I respect your playstyle, and it will not be effected by this remap, if you choose not to use it.

* Honestly I think if you had the option when you first figured out mining was pointless back then, you would have used it to put those mining points somewhere else. That was also years ago so you could simply reskill into them again if you found it worthwhile.

* New players joining the game for the first time do not have the same biased opinions on EvE as us Vets do about how it should function, I am a beta player and I'll tell you right now that today's EVE is not the same EvE as in 2002 and 2003, Its an Entirely different game. Change happens and will continue to happen, and like your quote says not all change is good, But I'll say to you that not all change is bad either.

Some change is both good and bad on different levels, but still required to meet the needs of all. This change will be good for both Vets and new players alike, This change will be bad only for those who choose to view it as such, through their ownperceptions and for their own reasons.

It will not be bad because of anything listed in this thread. As most of the issues listed are either A. Illogical fear, or B. Personal complaint.

I have not seen one reason (Logical or technical) listed here which has any grounds for not putting this in game, Simply because 1 the skill remap will be limited, and 2 it is an "Option" not something which is forced upon you.

*
Quote:

I have this to say about the skill remap:

It gives people who get frustrated easily or have problems learning about the skill system setup a more streamlined way to make use of the time which they play Eve in. If you don't want to use it, you don't have to and you can play Eve exactly the way you have since you opened your account, However for these other people who need it and desire it, it gives them a reason to hang around and play Eve casually, rather then only being really attractive tot he hardcore player. Thus increasing the population of Eve online, and Enriching the community.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-01-14 21:45:50 UTC
1) I think all players should be given a Skill reallocation once they reach 2 years of age. Whether this continues or not isn't up to me, but I feel once a player reaches two years of age, they've built up enough knowledge in game to be able to reallocate without making the same mistakes they did initially.

2) I strongly feel that any time CCP nerfs a ship, they should leave it up to the players with related skills to decide whether they wish to reallocate skills specifically related to that ship and/or module/s.

Explenation on number 2.

It is CCP's resposiblity to balance ships upon release of that ship.
When they release a ship, players determine the effectiveness of that ship. If CCP didn't release a properly balanced ship, it will of course become a popular ship.
See, it is CCP who creates the FOTM ships, not the players.
We're just the ones who discover the abilities and make use of them.

For instance, the drake is capable of fairly significant EHP compared to other BCs.
Are they unbalanced due to this?
I don't know, I'm just a player. Who am I to say whether a ship is balanced or not?

Perhaps CCP should have done proper testing of the ship?

So, I invest isk and SP into a ship because it is powerful and I am not knowledgable of any balance issues.

Therefore, when CCP rebalances the ship and removes capabilities, it is their fault that it wasn't properly balanced in the first place, so, they should give the players the opportunity to be reimbursed related SP to that ship.

Like I've stated with the tengu. I trained for it specifically for lvl 4 missions. I will not use it for pvp, exploration, or anything but lvl 4 missions.
Is it not fair that CCP give me the opportunity to be reimbursed this SP if nerf it in a way that takes away from its capability to run lvl 4's efficiently?
I would think it is fair to reimburst me...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-01-14 22:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Nikk Narrel wrote:

If PLEX were something sold for advantage by CCP, you might have a point.

After all, ISK is how you get in game items, and CCP is selling you ISK, right?
...except they aren't.

Selling you ISK, that is. The ISK comes from players, who earn it.
Regardless of how it may be advertised...
You are NOT gauranteed a return on your cash investment on that PLEX. It is possible that you might get a good price in the market, but that price is offered by other players, NOT by CCP.

You still need the time spent on a paying account to get the skills, regardless of whether you are logged in.
(Yes, we all know about selling characters too, someone spent the time training those skills and got paid for it too)

If you pay members of your corp in ISK to help you do something in game, like run a complex, are you paying to win then as well?


reguardless of whether or not the isk is provided in game is moot.

The is one, and only ONE way that a PLEX arrives in game.
Someone MUST pay real cash for it.

This means that using real money provides a product that is not available through any other means.

By definition, the is pay 2 win.

Sure, someone can easily buy this product on the market with isk.
Again though, the only reason this item is available is because someone paid real cash.

Now, you have those "real world" wealthy players.

These players can pilot ships in game without attaining isk through any means other than buying PLEXes with real money.

Technically, these players are purchasing ships, fittings, etc. with real money.


Then there's SP.
Players seem to think that you can't purchase SP in game.

They seem to forget about attribute implants.
I can purchases PLEXes and sell them in game for isk, which can then be used to purchase +5 attribute implants.
These +5 attribute implants can then be used to attain over 90 days worth of extra skill points that a player without implants couldn't attain in a year.


Sure, a player can purchase attribute implants without the need to purchase a PLEX, but they have to work for it, and if they lose them, they must work for them again, while another player can easily sell more PLEXes and buy them again, that day.


Sure, players can establish themselves in game and be able to buy anything they wish to have at any point in time, but those players have invested time into the game, while again, other players who are more wealthy in real life can simply buy PLEXes.



Whether an item can be attain by everyone does not determine pay 2 win.
When a player can purchase ANYTHING that can be used in game is pay 2 win.

Hell, I'm sure most of us would say that this makes it even more so.

I don't care if you buy your character a new dress so that you have something to masterbate over, but when you're able to buy the very same ship and items, that took me months of time investment, with real cash..That is PAY 2 WIN..
Mag's
Azn Empire
#137 - 2013-01-14 22:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Joe Risalo wrote:


reguardless of whether or not the isk is provided in game is moot.

The is one, and only ONE way that a PLEX arrives in game.
Someone MUST pay real cash for it.

This means that using real money provides a product that is not available through any other means.

By definition, the is pay 2 win.
No it isn't. The Plex itself doesn't give you anything special. It's designed to give a months server access. That does not means it's Pay2Win. It actually mean those that don't have real life cash, can play using in game money. So quite the opposite.

Pay to win is regarding items ONLY available with cash and those items are designed to give you an advantage that cannot be gained any other means. Nothing a Plex does, can remotely be construed as that. By it's very nature, it only gives those who buy it with cash, access to other players ISK.

They need the ISK, already available in game to work. Nothing can be made instantly with them, all items must already exist.
So rather than being Pay2Win, it's Pay2GetStuffWithoutGrindingOrWaitingForISK. They are simply not the same.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#138 - 2013-01-14 22:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mag's wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


reguardless of whether or not the isk is provided in game is moot.

The is one, and only ONE way that a PLEX arrives in game.
Someone MUST pay real cash for it.

This means that using real money provides a product that is not available through any other means.

By definition, the is pay 2 win.
No it isn't. The Plex itself doesn't give you anything special. It's designed to give a months server access. That does not means it's Pay2Win. It actually mean those that don't have real life cash, can play using in game money. So quite the oposite.

Pay to win is regarding items ONLY available with cash and those items are designed to give you an advantage that cannot be gained any other means. Nothing a Plex does, can remotely be construed as that. By it's very nature, it only gives those who buy it with cash, access to other players ISK.

So rather than being Pay2Win, it's Pay2GetStuffWithoutGrindingOrWaitingForISK. They are simply not the same.



Ah but it does. As we've been stating Plex has an ISK value. and ISK gives everyone an advantage, especially at 600 million ISK a pop.

I would agree with you that Plex was not a pay to win item:

IF and Only IF it had NO intrinsic ISK value, and could not be sold to other players for sizable amounts of in game currency, which is then used to purchase Items which the player Otherwise, would not have been able to obtain without days, sometimes months of grinding, depending on the total number of Plexes sold. (Read below fro an explanation of why plexes would never be purchased if you could not sell them).

I guarantee you that if Plexes had no ISK value, people would not buy them. People buy Plexes to sell for ISK because it is Banable to Buy ISK itself from 3rd party companies. People buy Plexes as a way to give themselves a Financial Boost, and for absolutely No other reason.

Quote:
Let me ask you something, a Plex is the exact same cost as a months sub to eve. If you could not sell your plex for isk, why would you buy one instead of Subbing regularly?

The answer:

You wouldn't.


Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.

So yes Plex does impart an unfair advantage on players and can only be purchased for money and therefore is a pay to win item.

However my Skill remap does the exact opposite allowing everyone to re-train for what they need and desire, rather then an elite few.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#139 - 2013-01-14 22:49:21 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#140 - 2013-01-14 22:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Plexes Sole purpose when purchased by players is to sell for ISK so they can buy ships, items weapons, implants, whatever without needing to grind for it.
If it was it's sole purpose, (forgetting the fact that people use them to run accounts) it still doesn't make it Pay2Win.


The people who use them to pay for accounts are not the people that buy them from CCP. They are the people who pay ISK to buy them off the market.

Again, Plexes are SOLELY "bought" in order to sell for quick ISK in order to buy in game items.

Definition of Pay to win per wikipedia:

Quote:
"Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.


Yes Plexes are indeed Pay to win.

If you tell me 600,000,000 ISK , will not give you an advantage in game, your full of crap.