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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#421 - 2013-01-16 20:49:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

Again though, if there is a FOTM issue causing players to reallocate skills into predominant ships, then this (like trained skills) is not the players fault.

If CCP balanced the ships properly in the first place there wouldn't be a FOTM.


You don't seem to understand that "fault" doesn't matter.

-Liang


Neither do you, Apparently....
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#422 - 2013-01-16 20:55:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

1. I wasn't referring to Attributes, I was referring to SP.


I don't care what you were referring to. I was explaining to you what was said because you obviously didn't get it.

Quote:

2. Learning skills would just take up more time training, the purpose of a skill remap is to reduce it, by allowing you to switch your SP pools between skills. Rather then forcing you to train entirely new sets of skills over time while not using the Old skills you do not want anymore. Your solution fro training Learning skills simply wastes more time and SP (in the short term, though would be beneficial to have in the long run, but we are talking about the short term here)

This also Does not solve the Issues present in my Original Post.

* You meant this is what I would introduce with this, No where did I suggest new learning skills, You did, and I stated a small teak to several skills could easily fix the issue and make it Irrelevant.


You don't seem to understand. You are not directly suggesting the introduction of new learning skills. You are suggesting the equivalent of new learning skills. The new learning skill is as such:
- Remap your attributes to Perc/Wil
- Dock up for 6 months
- Train to Gallente BS 5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Retrain Gallente BS5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Retrain Gallente BS5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Finally undock

Quote:

3. Who gives a fap? If people want to fly a certain ship let them, It's Eve. I wont be remapping to simply chase an FOTM, and I am pretty positive the vast majority of the player base wont either, we have more important things to do in Eve then chase the Newest Fad.


CCP gives a fap because it's bad for CCP's game. CCP's employees give a fap because their family eating depends on having a healthy game. Many of Eve's players care because we enjoy spending our time and money on Eve.

Quote:

4. Wrong, You still have to set a goal, you still have to train your skills, Maybe your goal is to fly a dread and you have 30 Mil SP, but you don't feel like waiting a year to get into it when you have other skills you need to work on also, so you never train it, "CCP introduces the Skill Remap" BOOM, Oh hell yea, Goal Met baby!

Also remember that people start with very little SP. So they can't Instantaneously do anything, they have to train for it just like now, The Instantaneous Benefits would be to Vets and Players as they Become Vets due to their High SP. But it would be a one time Bonus really, because once you remap your skills the first time your not going to have anymore "Wasted" skills to instantly put somewhere else.


Yes, you will instantly meet your goal. Unfortunately, you lose the satisfaction derived from it. People do not value things that are that easy to come by - which is one of the reasons why time reengagement mechanics are so successful.

Quote:

5. Right... Put the crack pipe down. Eve has plenty of this, too much really and it makes people not want to play the game when they try it out. Nerfing this a bit Might actually get more people into Eve,and like I said before, I guarantee you wont even Notice this SP remap in the game, Just like you all Don't notice the Attr Remap anymore.

What you will notice is more people playing the game, A lot more.


No, actually not. We've A/B tested this at work repeatedly. It turns out that basic human psychology is pretty correct.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#423 - 2013-01-16 21:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Quote:



You don't seem to understand. You are not directly suggesting the introduction of new learning skills. You are suggesting the equivalent of new learning skills. The new learning skill is as such:
- Remap your attributes to Perc/Wil
- Dock up for 6 months
- Train to Gallente BS 5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Retrain Gallente BS5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Retrain Gallente BS5
- Redistribute your skill points
- Finally undock



1. You do realize since you can only redistribute Once per year that it would take you... 4 years to complete that cycle yes? If you want to waste your time with it, more power to you.

2. And as "I" said (Twice actually) A simple tweak could be added to those skills to fix that problem, if it was one, which since it takes 4 years to do what you suggested your supposition is Illogical, and Irrational.


Quote:

CCP gives a fap because it's bad for CCP's game. CCP's employees give a fap because their family eating depends on having a healthy game. Many of Eve's players care because we enjoy spending our time and money on Eve.


Do you work for CCP? Are you a Mind reader? Do you view CCP's Fiscal reports every quarter? Didn't think so.

You "assume" this will be game ending. Just like people assume the world will end every time a new Doomsday prophecy gains popularity.

You don't know what the future holds, and you Don't know that it will have a negative effect on Eve, or even how the players will react, You think you do, Thats it.

This is simply you being Peranoid, and Screaming QUICK ! Get into the Cave before the Nuke hits! Stay in the Cave! Don't Leave it. And attempting to kill anyone who does for their own good.

Even though outside the cave the world goes on as normal and hey.. No nuke hit.



Quote:


Yes, you will instantly meet your goal. Unfortunately, you lose the satisfaction derived from it. People do not value things that are that easy to come by - which is one of the reasons why time reengagement mechanics are so successful.


Who are you to tell me what I gain or lose satisfaction in? I decide that for myself NOT you. Just like every player in Eve decides what gives them satisfaction.

* People quit Eve because they are not satisfied with the current system. That's a Fact.

Quote:


No, actually not. We've A/B tested this at work repeatedly. It turns out that basic human psychology is pretty correct.



As a psychology Major I am going to say one thing.... Your full of ****.

Human psychology varies VASTLY depending on the individual. Just because YOU might FOTM it up, does not mean every one else will. Yea some will, but I wont. And neither will the vast majority of Individuals who play Eve for more reasons then to "Fly the best Shiny".

And what are you going to do spend your once a year remap to train for that months FOTM,and then be screwed the rest of the year because your a dumbass for being so short sighted?

I'd rather Mine, and Build the Best shiny and then sell it to you and your FOTM nutcases for vasts amount of ISK.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2013-01-16 21:21:47 UTC
These threads are full of game programmers and psychology majors.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#425 - 2013-01-16 21:26:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

Again though, if there is a FOTM issue causing players to reallocate skills into predominant ships, then this (like trained skills) is not the players fault.

If CCP balanced the ships properly in the first place there wouldn't be a FOTM.


You don't seem to understand that "fault" doesn't matter.

-Liang


The "fault" is CCP's.

I shouldn't have to research, experiment, compare, ask, contribute, etc. etc. etc. in order to fly a ship.

If I like the ship, I fly it.

If CCP determines the ship is too powerful and nerfs it in a way that negates the very reason why I trained, bought, and faction fitted the ship, well, I should have the option to be reimbursted that SP.

Prime example. (not a literal example)


Take Marauders as an example.

They're designed to spam the crap out of missions with relative ease.

However, if CCP changed their role and made them more of a pvp focused ship, would those players deserve that SP back?

I mean, they invested in a pve focused ship and though the ship is still effective at something, do they not deserve a refund considering the ship would no longer be what they had invested all their SP and isk into?
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2013-01-16 21:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
These threads are full of game programmers and psychology majors.


Lol, I have spent several hundred hours programming games and am a psychology doctoral student. Are you outside hiding in my yard or something?

Also, now that the conversation has swung back to SP reallocation instead of Pay2Win, I would like to reiterate that I think reallocation of any sort is a pretty bad idea, having been convinced earlier on.


The most convincing argument was something along the lines of:

"You have no entitlement to having OP skills. If you trained OP missiles, and then missiles get nerfed to become balanced with other weapons systems, then you didn't get anything UNFAIRLY taken away from you. You are simply no longer getting your unfair bonus anymore, that you never deserved in the first place. If missiles had been balanced from the start, then they still would have been just as good of a system as any other weapon, and you may still have chosen to train them, so you have no argument for getting those points back. Be thankful for the time you did have when your skills were OP."
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#427 - 2013-01-16 21:34:22 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

1. You do realize since you can only redistribute Once per year that it would take you... 4 years to complete that cycle yes? If you want to waste your time with it, more power to you.

2. And as "I" said (Twice actually) A simple tweak could be added to those skills to fix that problem, if it was one, which since it takes 4 years to do what you suggested your supposition is Illogical, and Irrational.


You don't seem to understand that the core mechanics problem behind the periodic remapping of skill points implicitly creates a repeatable cycle of learning skills. Except now instead of training learning skills once, people would be doing it all the time - to the continual benefit of people who are older in the game with more SP.

Quote:

Do you work for CCP? Are you a Mind reader? Do you view CCP's Fiscal reports every quarter? Didn't think so.


I work in the gaming industry, but I do not work at CCP. However, I know many people who do work there and I don't feel that it's even remotely stretching or reaching for me to make the assertions that I did.

[quote]
Who are you to tell me what I gain or lose satisfaction in? I decide that for myself NOT you. Just like every player in Eve decides what gives them satisfaction.

* People quit Eve because they are not satisfied with the current system. That's a Fact.
...
As a psychology Major I am going to say one thing.... Your full of ****.


Yes, they absolutely quit because they are not satisfied with the current game. However, there's no guarantee that your suggestion would improve that satisfaction and there's quite a lot of data that would say it doesn't. Like I said, many many game companies have A/B tested this human behavior with regards to time based reengagement.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#428 - 2013-01-16 21:36:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

I shouldn't have to research, experiment, compare, ask, contribute, etc. etc. etc. in order to fly a ship.

If I like the ship, I fly it.


So you basically just want to remove skill points from the game. I'm sorry, please go play a different game to fulfill that particular desire. The X3 series is pretty good, if I may make a suggestion.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#429 - 2013-01-16 21:50:30 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
These threads are full of game programmers and psychology majors.


http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/python-json-performance/

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2013-01-16 22:30:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
These threads are full of game programmers and psychology majors.


http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/python-json-performance/

-Liang

I apologize if I inadvertently offended you, I have seen you prove yourself on numerous occasions and the comment was not directed at you but as a general observation of the rebuttals when people can no longer defend their ideas from a true programming or the actual knowledge of psychology.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#431 - 2013-01-16 22:32:30 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
These threads are full of game programmers and psychology majors.


http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/python-json-performance/

-Liang

I apologize if I inadvertently offended you, I have seen you prove yourself on numerous occasions and the comment was not directed at you but as a general observation of the rebuttals when people can no longer defend their ideas from a true programming or the actual knowledge of psychology.


No worries <3

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#432 - 2013-01-16 23:08:34 UTC

There are a lot of programmers and psychologists in this thread...

I too am a programmer, although I can't claim to be a psychologist...
Lol Instead I'm pursuing my doctorate in a "Real" Science... Lol
-- side note: I think we need a lot more psychologists in this world, because there is a woeful lack of funding/research/understanding on Mental Illnesses!

Back on topic:
I have yet to see a good reason to allow SP remapping...
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

* With this feature the player will no longer need to spend months training for another ship, item or whatever, simply because the devs decided to change something critical on a ship, item, weapon, whatever, which then made it useless for your play style, or ability.


Your "spend months of training for another ship" line is completely over-the-top. There are very few ships that require months to train for... and you can almost always fly it well before you have it max-skilled.

More importantly, EvE online is a continually evolving game... at NO point in it's history did CCP guarantee that your precious ship would remain the optimal ship to fly. Adapt or die...

Reasons why you should not be able to respec:

1.) It's increases the general skillpoint training rate for higher skillpoint players: They just train Titan V all year at max training, and then respec those skills to something else they desire... You can easily find 1-year worth of Per-Will skills that to do this with...

2.) You've already benefited from those SP... and can continue to benefit from them in the future. Your current SP is being utilized when you do what you do... If tomorrow, you decide you want to swap areas of the game... you've already benefited from your current SP, even if you don't ever use them again.... why should you be able to refocus that SP to instantly be good in another area of the game? This seems detrimental to the game... and in no way a good thing...

3.) You don't deserve it... Never did CCP guarantee you that your current ship will remain the same, both in terms of power spectrum, utility, etc.. Never did CCP guarantee you that your play style today will be valid tomorrow... And in light of past and future changes, your suggestion really comes across as "since I'm a vet with lots of SP I should be able to remap them to try a new area of the game... without going through the growing pains in becoming efficient "skillwise" at it. As a vet, I oppose this attitude (and think it comes across as obnoxiously entitled).

Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#433 - 2013-01-17 00:34:19 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

I use Vulcun 220 2's there is no smaller guns. Vulcan is the lowest class of Gun on a cane and is generally Standard fit weapon type for vet cane pilots. Due to the massive tracking and rate of fire.

Unless you did something stupid and put 2-3 armor plates on it should still fit. Also you forgot about dual 180mm autos.

For a guy who has been playing EVE "for 10 years" you seem to be wrong an astounding amount of the time.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#434 - 2013-01-17 01:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.

There is only one way to determine if you're going to be happy with a specific ship, and that is to train for it.

Eve provides no other means to do so unless a friend allows you to use their account, which CCP frowns upon and is actually against the Eula.

So, this means that if you are unhappy with what you spent possibly years training for... Oh well, suck it up Sally.

It's a game... We pay to enjoy it the way we want as long as it's within the parameter of the game.

You must spend time, and thus money in order to experience a new ship.
If you're not happy with the outcome, you deserve a refund.

However, we're not suggesting a refund, but instead a once a year opportunity to recoup said SP.

I personally feel it should cost you the skillbook you premove the SP from, and given to the player as loose SP.
Thus, they would have to purchase new books to apply SP to if they didn't already own, or have the skills injected.

This would be entirely to keep it from being taken advantage of, such as remapping to train a specific set of skills rapidly, spamming those skills, and then reallocating that SP, like another player had suggested.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#435 - 2013-01-17 01:24:42 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.

There is only one way to determine if you're going to be happy with a specific ship, and that is to train for it.


Eh?

You can figure out if you'll be happy with a specific ship by just looking up its stats.

There isn't anything about a ship that you can only discover by flying it. You can know everything relevant before you train even your first SP toward that ship. No surprises.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#436 - 2013-01-17 02:04:34 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.


So you're telling me that the standard advice to noobs for the first 7 years of the game wasn't to just dock up for 4 months and train learning skills... Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#437 - 2013-01-17 02:09:54 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.

There is only one way to determine if you're going to be happy with a specific ship, and that is to train for it.


Eh?

You can figure out if you'll be happy with a specific ship by just looking up its stats.

There isn't anything about a ship that you can only discover by flying it. You can know everything relevant before you train even your first SP toward that ship. No surprises.


Just because I know everything about a ship doesn't mean I know whether I'll enjoy it or not.

Example...

I might know everything about a Machariel, but I won't know whether I like it until I fly it.
Maybe I'm the type of player that likes to sit in one place... Maybe not...
I personally know that I enjoy sitting in one place and blowing everything up before it reaches me, and that's why I fly a nightmare.
However, I've never flown a Macharial.. I might enjoy the constant movement and control of my ship, and close range weapons.

The only way I'll know for sure it to train for it, however, if I train for it and don't enjoy it, that means I just waisted time and SP to be dissapointed.

In my case this is very much the case with gallente ships and hybrid weapons.
I dont' like them. Yet, I only found this out because I trained for and attempted to fly them.

I also didn't know that I didn't like armor tanking until I tried it. I'm a shield tanker through and through and the only way I found this out was to try an armor tanked ships, which requried SP....

So, if I was soo disappointed with something that I'll never fly it, don't I deserve to get that SP back so I can use it on something I do enjoy, or perhaps my next venture?
I'm certain I will never use gallente ships, hybrid weapons, or armor tanking, so why can't I get that SP back?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#438 - 2013-01-17 02:14:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.


So you're telling me that the standard advice to noobs for the first 7 years of the game wasn't to just dock up for 4 months and train learning skills... Roll

-Liang



lol, what???

What does this have to do with anything??

Actually, I take that back.. What you just said is better at pushing our point.

Players, as well as CCP weren't happy with learning skills.
CCP removed them and reimbursed the SP to the players.

While this was done on a global level, it's the very same concept as what we're suggesting, only what we're suggesting is on an individual level..

if CCP is unhappy with a skill and thus thinks a player deserves to be reimbursed for it, then why can't a player decide which skills they're unhappy with every once in a while and get reimbursed for them.

Thanks for helping our cause.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#439 - 2013-01-17 02:14:04 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Some people are looking too deeply into this.

Most players wouldn't use this to completely rearrange their skills, but would merely use it to recoup sp they're not happy with.

There is only one way to determine if you're going to be happy with a specific ship, and that is to train for it.

Eve provides no other means to do so unless a friend allows you to use their account, which CCP frowns upon and is actually against the Eula.

So, this means that if you are unhappy with what you spent possibly years training for... Oh well, suck it up Sally.

It's a game... We pay to enjoy it the way we want as long as it's within the parameter of the game.

You must spend time, and thus money in order to experience a new ship.
If you're not happy with the outcome, you deserve a refund.

However, we're not suggesting a refund, but instead a once a year opportunity to recoup said SP.

I personally feel it should cost you the skillbook you premove the SP from, and given to the player as loose SP.
Thus, they would have to purchase new books to apply SP to if they didn't already own, or have the skills injected.

This would be entirely to keep it from being taken advantage of, such as remapping to train a specific set of skills rapidly, spamming those skills, and then reallocating that SP, like another player had suggested.


ppl will definately use this to re-arrange large amounts of SP's. (i dont say compeltely re-arrange skills because because ,like ppl have been saying, many support skills are transferable)

just look at the OP, he can fly a rorqual, but is now a hi-sec dweller, so he'll be re-arranging all those skills. he skileld specifically for the cane, but now thinks its useless, so he'll be respeccing them too. he also didnt like the change to missiles, so thers more respec there. and these are just the ones hes mentioned.

also joe, u thought that doing research before committing to something was an unfair expectation? it really isnt. Eve is such a complex game u should be doing reading into as many things as u can before u make commitements. i read up on this game for months before my first subscription and doing so prevented me from making many of the noob errors other ppl must have made.

but the fact that someone told u to train the tengu because it was good, must have meant u understood that it was better than other ships. maybe u didnt realise it was as overpowered as it was, but u at least knew it had quite the advantage.

and as everyone will tell u, if u train for one ship, and just one ship, its YODAF (your own dumb ass fault) when that ship gets nerfed and theres nothing else u can fly

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#440 - 2013-01-17 02:14:35 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

Just because I know everything about a ship doesn't mean I know whether I'll enjoy it or not.

Example...

I might know everything about a Machariel, but I won't know whether I like it until I fly it.
Maybe I'm the type of player that likes to sit in one place... Maybe not...
I personally know that I enjoy sitting in one place and blowing everything up before it reaches me, and that's why I fly a nightmare.
However, I've never flown a Macharial.. I might enjoy the constant movement and control of my ship, and close range weapons.

The only way I'll know for sure it to train for it, however, if I train for it and don't enjoy it, that means I just waisted time and SP to be dissapointed.

In my case this is very much the case with gallente ships and hybrid weapons.
I dont' like them. Yet, I only found this out because I trained for and attempted to fly them.

I also didn't know that I didn't like armor tanking until I tried it. I'm a shield tanker through and through and the only way I found this out was to try an armor tanked ships, which requried SP....

So, if I was soo disappointed with something that I'll never fly it, don't I deserve to get that SP back so I can use it on something I do enjoy, or perhaps my next venture?
I'm certain I will never use gallente ships, hybrid weapons, or armor tanking, so why can't I get that SP back?


Step 1) Spend less than 1 day of training, if that, and then go fly some level one missions with a kiting frigate vs. a tanking frigate. You now know which battle style you prefer!

Step 2) Train for whichever type of battleship matches the playstyle you enjoyed in your test case.