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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#301 - 2013-01-15 20:58:13 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
Paint ball style conflict or other non lethal expressions come to mind more readily


*Eye roll* Seriously?

Okay, so then simply replace the very last bullet point:
"You get time in Prison for Murder = You get ISK"
with
"You eliminate an opposing player in your paintball game = You get ISK"


That changes nothing.
Anyway, I don't think you understand how analogies work, honestly, and it's time for me to get lunch and do some real work...

It changes everything.

It is no longer a criminal act, or one to be concealed like other games illicit currency sales.

They found a way to make it balanced, instead of black market.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#302 - 2013-01-15 20:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
This is not strictly true. You can exchange a PLEX for game time.

However, you would be a complete idiot if you did so, since a single PLEX costs like $17 bucks or something, and a single month's direct subscription costs like $12. You would be throwing away $5 for no reason.

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.

And yet ultimately, the point of PLEX IS to be converted into game time, regardless of how often it changes hands.

If you had a coupon for a free cheeseburger, does it ever become worth more than a cheeseburger?


Depends on if your selling it to an AIT student on a military base who hasn't seen one in 3 months....

They will pay ungodly ammounts of money for candy, Cigurettes, and liquer or fast food. I know I used to sell it to them.

So yea, I'd buy a ton of Double cheese burgers from Mcky D's for like 20.00 take them on base and sell them to the AIT guys for like 100.00

Damn straight I'd turn that into a profit.

And as I stated beofre the pint of a plex is not singular, for the person Buying it from CCP it is to Aquire ISK, For the person Buying it off theMarket it is to purchase Account services.

So for one Party, it is in fact Pay to win, and for the other it isn't.

It can be both.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#303 - 2013-01-15 21:00:40 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
This is not strictly true. You can exchange a PLEX for game time.

However, you would be a complete idiot if you did so, since a single PLEX costs like $17 bucks or something, and a single month's direct subscription costs like $12. You would be throwing away $5 for no reason.

So yes, anybody who is not brain dead is exchanging their PLEX they bought for either isk or aur, at least.

And yet ultimately, the point of PLEX IS to be converted into game time, regardless of how often it changes hands.

If you had a coupon for a free cheeseburger, does it ever become worth more than a cheeseburger?


Depends on if your selling it to an AIT student on a military base who hasn't seen one in 3 months....

They will pay ungodly ammounts of money for candy, Cigurettes, and liquer or fast food. I know I used to sell it to them.

So yea, I'd buy a ton of Double cheese burgers from Mcky D's for like 20.00 take them on base and sell them to the AIT guys for like 100.00

Damn straight I'd turn that into a profit.

Whew, I thought people were losing their business sense... Crimeo only wants to pay a nickel!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#304 - 2013-01-15 21:02:41 UTC
And as I stated beofre the pint of a plex is not singular, for the person Buying it from CCP it is to Aquire ISK, For the person Buying it off theMarket it is to purchase Account services.

So for one Party, it is in fact Pay to win, and for the other it isn't.

It can be both.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2013-01-15 21:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Nikk Narrel wrote:

It changes everything.

It is no longer a criminal act, or one to be concealed like other games illicit currency sales.

They found a way to make it balanced, instead of black market.


Yes, it changes everything with regard to CCP's business structure.

It does not, however, change anything with regard to the actual discussion we are having, which--as you seem to have forgotten--is about "pay 2 win," not about "CCP's strategies for avoiding black market gold buyers." Going to jail, or eliminating an opponent in paintball, are both examples of the eventual consequences of your initial actions in each of the two respective analogies. Thus, they both demonstrate how even when there are intervening steps, if action X leads to consequence Y, then X caused Y.

Buying PLEX from CCP thus causes you to get more isk, even though there are intervening steps along the way, just like buying the rifle and ammunition caused you to go to jail, or caused you to win your game of paintball, respectively, even though there are intervening steps.

And since you have now confirmed my suspicion that you don't understand how analogies work, I definitely know its not worth my time to keep writing in this thread. Nom noms are to be had. Cheers.
Krotch Vader
Moonlit Bonsai
#306 - 2013-01-15 21:18:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Reading these forums for years and watching the game develop has been fun and interesting, however, it has also been a serious pain in the ass when they change certain aspect which force the player to spend months and sometimes years retraining, such as the nerfs they are giving the BC's in the upcoming patch will cause. (Among other things), and while perhaps not necessarily for the smaller items in game, when you start editing changing and nerfing the very functionality of ships which take years of training to fly properly, it is entirely inappropriate and unfair not to give the player some way to continue to play the game without the need for cross training or retraining of another ship.

Battleships are next on their chopping block from what I have read by the devs, and I suspect if this post is not given credit and this idea implemented, when they overhaul the battleships, demand for it will grow exponentially.

In leu of this, I believe it is high time the Developers finally added the Skill Reallocation feature to EvE.

* With this feature the player will no longer need to spend months training for another ship, item or whatever, simply because the devs decided to change something critical on a ship, item, weapon, whatever, which then made it useless for your play style, or ability.

* You will simply be able to open your skill chart, hit Respect and select the skills you wish to refund the SP for and then realocate it to another skill.

* This function already is setup and exists in EvE, the Devs have used it numerous times over the years. Its time they made it Optional and public for the player base itself.

* Restrictions of one or two respects per year could be implemented, such as with the attribute respects.

Are you insane?

My only hope of beating some of these here older pilots is that they may not be using something trained as good as me.
If I keep myself focused on one ship, and train it to the max, I got a shot against the older dude who maybe only trained it to 4 on his guns, or something.

You hand them this, and they will max out on every ship they expect to fly, and I won't be able to come close to beating any of em in a figth.

Aw heck no!
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#307 - 2013-01-15 21:22:40 UTC
Krotch Vader wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Reading these forums for years and watching the game develop has been fun and interesting, however, it has also been a serious pain in the ass when they change certain aspect which force the player to spend months and sometimes years retraining, such as the nerfs they are giving the BC's in the upcoming patch will cause. (Among other things), and while perhaps not necessarily for the smaller items in game, when you start editing changing and nerfing the very functionality of ships which take years of training to fly properly, it is entirely inappropriate and unfair not to give the player some way to continue to play the game without the need for cross training or retraining of another ship.

Battleships are next on their chopping block from what I have read by the devs, and I suspect if this post is not given credit and this idea implemented, when they overhaul the battleships, demand for it will grow exponentially.

In leu of this, I believe it is high time the Developers finally added the Skill Reallocation feature to EvE.

* With this feature the player will no longer need to spend months training for another ship, item or whatever, simply because the devs decided to change something critical on a ship, item, weapon, whatever, which then made it useless for your play style, or ability.

* You will simply be able to open your skill chart, hit Respect and select the skills you wish to refund the SP for and then realocate it to another skill.

* This function already is setup and exists in EvE, the Devs have used it numerous times over the years. Its time they made it Optional and public for the player base itself.

* Restrictions of one or two respects per year could be implemented, such as with the attribute respects.

Are you insane?

My only hope of beating some of these here older pilots is that they may not be using something trained as good as me.
If I keep myself focused on one ship, and train it to the max, I got a shot against the older dude who maybe only trained it to 4 on his guns, or something.

You hand them this, and they will max out on every ship they expect to fly, and I won't be able to come close to beating any of em in a figth.

Aw heck no!


And what happens when that one ship gets nerfed? Your going to wish you could respec.

Older players do not need to respec as much. we ahve cross trained in everything almost. So we are basically Nerf proof, You are not.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#308 - 2013-01-15 21:30:32 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
And what happens when that one ship gets nerfed? Your going to wish you could respec.

Older players do not need to respec as much. we ahve cross trained in everything almost. So we are basically Nerf proof, You are not.

That's it, tell him that older players are using better skills with everything already.

Twisted

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#309 - 2013-01-15 21:34:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
And what happens when that one ship gets nerfed? Your going to wish you could respec.

Older players do not need to respec as much. we ahve cross trained in everything almost. So we are basically Nerf proof, You are not.

That's it, tell him that older players are using better skills with everything already.

Twisted


Well I mean.. we are.

But SP doesn't mean win. Its how you fly. Skills help yea, but their not what eve is about.

Another reason I proposed this Skill remap, to take the primary focus off "I must train for this etc" training your skills, and get it back on game play.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#310 - 2013-01-15 21:50:03 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


It is your opinion that it favors the old. But the old really have no use for it except to fix mistakes they made while training in the past, as most of us old players are cross trained into every race. So no the bennifit fit to us is only one of convenience.

However as Ive stated before the bennefit to a new player is very large, being able to fix a mistake in your training when you have very little SP effects you a lot more then when you have 100 million.

an SP remap might be the difference on whether a new player can fly his ship or not and have fun. An older player will simply fly something else in the mean time or remap to something they desire.

it is a Neccessity for younger players, and a luxurey for older ones.
No it is fact, that it will favour the old. Simply because of how high old players SP is, in relation to new.

Also, congrats on avoiding the difficult request and points. You're just too easy to read.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#311 - 2013-01-15 22:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Please point to where I lied. Either to you, or myself.

Anybody who is arguing that PLEX are not "pay 2 win" is probably doing so in order to convince themselves that when they buy PLEX for isk, they are not gaining any unfair advantage.

I can't say for certain that's the motivation of everybody here, but it is the only reason I can think of for being so illogical, and it is probably the motivation of at least some of the people arguing that.
I have never bought a Plex, to sell for ISK. I do however, think they are a great addition. Simply because it adds more players and revenue for CCP.

Also, I don't rely on spurious analogies, in order to try and make my point. I simply rely on the DEFINITION of what Pay2Win means. Pay2Win specifically refers to items, you CANNOT gain for free within normal game play.

As Malcorian is avoiding answering my request, I'll put it to you instead.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2013-01-15 22:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
But SP doesn't mean win. Its how you fly. Skills help yea, but their not what eve is about.

Assuming that your opponents suck, this is true. But given equal player ability, SP does mean win. If equally talented pilots go against each other in equivalent powered fits, then SP becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the one thing (other than lag) that can open up a margin for victory. People say that player skill and not SP is all that matters, but that's only true because there are always tons of awful players around. So yes, when you're up against dozens of bads every day, it doesn't matter much what you fly or how much SP you have; you will destroy them all if you're even somewhat good.

Put an all Vs character and a brand new, day zero Gallente toon into a couple of Velators and see how they compare. To start with, the all Vs character can get, for example, 125mm Railgun IIs on (barely), while the noob only has room for 75mm guns, and of course can't fit T2s at all. Set both of them up with the best guns they can get on, two magstabs in the lows, a small shield extender, and an afterburner.

The all Vs character will be doing double the damage, at twice the effective range, with 30% more EHP against kin/therm damage and 23% higher speed. That's an advantage that most definitely is "win." The vet will dictate range and blow the noob out of the sky before the noob even lands one shot. There literally is no way the noob is going to win, unless the vet is asleep at the wheel, because the noob can't even engage.

This is why corps that have a lot of new players and like to have in-corp tournaments always wind up having to set up some sort of "weight class" system by raw SP amount, because otherwise it just becomes a joke, and it's not fun for anyone when vets spend the whole time sitting around blowing the noobs away before they get a shot off. Within each SP class, then it actually does becomes a contest of player skill and tactics, because everyone has about the same amount of raw SP.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#313 - 2013-01-15 22:38:16 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
But SP doesn't mean win. Its how you fly. Skills help yea, but their not what eve is about.

Assuming that your opponents suck, this is true. But given equal player ability, SP does mean win. If equally talented pilots go against each other in equivalent powered fits, then SP becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the one thing (other than lag) that can open up a margin for victory. People say that player skill and not SP is all that matters, but that's only true because there are always tons of awful players around. So yes, when you're up against dozens of bads every day, it doesn't matter much what you fly or how much SP you have; you will destroy them all if you're even somewhat good.

Put an all Vs character and a brand new, day zero Gallente toon into a couple of Velators and see how they compare. To start with, the all Vs character can get, for example, 125mm Railgun IIs on (barely), while the noob only has room for 75mm guns, and of course can't fit T2s at all. Set both of them up with the best guns they can get on, two magstabs in the lows, a small shield extender, and an afterburner.

The all Vs character will be doing double the damage, at twice the effective range, with 30% more EHP against kin/therm damage and 23% higher speed. That's an advantage that most definitely is "win." The vet will dictate range and blow the noob out of the sky before the noob even lands one shot. There literally is no way the noob is going to win, unless the vet is asleep at the wheel, because the noob can't even engage.

This is why corps that have a lot of new players and like to have in-corp tournaments always wind up having to set up some sort of "weight class" system by raw SP amount, because otherwise it just becomes a joke, and it's not fun for anyone when vets spend the whole time sitting around blowing the noobs away before they get a shot off. Within each SP class, then it actually does becomes a contest of player skill and tactics, because everyone has about the same amount of raw SP.


this is not wow, Its not warrior vs warrior with level 85 epics.

You can tell 20 people to fit a Megathron, and you will end up with 10-15 different fits, and all 20 of the megs will have a different tier modual of the same "Type".

I know a 3 day old player can kill a 10 year vet, because I've done it on alts. They didnt suck and they awere in a better ship, its a matter of knowing what you are doing, Knowledge is Power in eve, not your SP.

Sp helps like I Said earlier, but the purpose of Eve does not revolve around your SP total. Eve would suck if it did and old vets would never die. (Except maybe to each other)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#314 - 2013-01-15 22:41:27 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
But SP doesn't mean win. Its how you fly. Skills help yea, but their not what eve is about.

Assuming that your opponents suck, this is true. But given equal player ability, SP does mean win. If equally talented pilots go against each other in equivalent powered fits, then SP becomes the only thing that matters, because it's the one thing (other than lag) that can open up a margin for victory. People say that player skill and not SP is all that matters, but that's only true because there are always tons of awful players around. So yes, when you're up against dozens of bads every day, it doesn't matter much what you fly or how much SP you have; you will destroy them all if you're even somewhat good.

Put an all Vs character and a brand new, day zero Gallente toon into a couple of Velators and see how they compare. To start with, the all Vs character can get, for example, 125mm Railgun IIs on (barely), while the noob only has room for 75mm guns, and of course can't fit T2s at all. Set both of them up with the best guns they can get on, two magstabs in the lows, a small shield extender, and an afterburner.

The all Vs character will be doing double the damage, at twice the effective range, with 30% more EHP against kin/therm damage and 23% higher speed. That's an advantage that most definitely is "win." The vet will dictate range and blow the noob out of the sky before the noob even lands one shot. There literally is no way the noob is going to win, unless the vet is asleep at the wheel, because the noob can't even engage.

This is why corps that have a lot of new players and like to have in-corp tournaments always wind up having to set up some sort of "weight class" system by raw SP amount, because otherwise it just becomes a joke, and it's not fun for anyone when vets spend the whole time sitting around blowing the noobs away before they get a shot off. Within each SP class, then it actually does becomes a contest of player skill and tactics, because everyone has about the same amount of raw SP.


I'll concede in a heads up match, with equal fits and equal player skill, then skillpoints play a role in the outcome... but not entirely... RNG is Random, and hit quality is RNG based!

In reality, you don't have "equal fits" nor "equal player skill" even if you do get a 1v1. That scenario is a myth that doesn't actually happen outside of very rare circumstances.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#315 - 2013-01-15 22:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mag's wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Please point to where I lied. Either to you, or myself.

Anybody who is arguing that PLEX are not "pay 2 win" is probably doing so in order to convince themselves that when they buy PLEX for isk, they are not gaining any unfair advantage.

I can't say for certain that's the motivation of everybody here, but it is the only reason I can think of for being so illogical, and it is probably the motivation of at least some of the people arguing that.
I have never bought a Plex, to sell for ISK. I do however, think they are a great addition. Simply because it adds more players and revenue for CCP.

Also, I don't rely on spurious analogies, in order to try and make my point. I simply rely on the DEFINITION of what Pay2Win means. Pay2Win specifically refers to items, you CANNOT gain for free within normal game play.

As Malcorian is avoiding answering my request, I'll put it to you instead.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.


Actually, no where in the definition of pay to Win does it state that the Item "must not be available in game".

In fact it specifically states that a Pay to win game is defined by micro transactions which allow you to attain gear, weapons, currency or other items, which give you an advantage over others. It also goes on to state that generally these same items are available in game for free to players who put the time and effort in to get them.

However, it is considered a Pay to win game because you can get these items, gear, and weapons, BEFORE someone else who can not pay cash for them. Which puts them at a distinct disadvantage to you who paid cash for said weapons.


That is Pay to win, and that is EXACTLY what buying a Plex allows you to do.


A NON pay to win game only offers Cosmetic, and Asthetic items in their cash shop which do not and have 0 effect on the game itself.

NON pay to win games:

Starwars the Old republic
Fallen Earth
Guild Wars 2
WoW
etc


PAY to win games:

Planetside 2
Eve Online
Perpetuum (Robot version of Eve online) They use ICE instead of PLEX
Tribes Ascend
Diablo 3
etc
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#316 - 2013-01-15 22:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
I always find it hilarious how armchair game developers try to tell everyone about their vision of how microtransactions and F2P work.

-Liang

Ed: Also, Eve is not P2W.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#317 - 2013-01-15 22:57:34 UTC

This is a 100m sp character.... I'm giving it to my sister. Did this character gain an unfair advantage over you?

The answer is NO.... this character exists in game already... all it's assets exist in game already... Me giving her that character does NOT change your position, nor this characters position in the EvE universe.

So, if, to get that character, I have her pay for my account for the next year.... why is it suddenly pay to win?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#318 - 2013-01-15 22:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Liang Nuren wrote:
I always find it hilarious how armchair game developers try to tell everyone about their vision of how microtransactions and F2P work.

-Liang

Ed: Also, Eve is not P2W.


Taken from wikkiapedia:

Specifically this section:

Quote:
Free-to-play games that include a microtransaction model are sometimes referred to as "freemium",[1] although applications offering microtransactions should not be confused with free applications that offer additional features via subscription services. "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means, although in some games the model applies to to free items available to all players with time and effort, which can be attained instantaneously through microtransactions The objective with a free-to-play microtransaction model is to get more players into the game and provide desirable items or features that players can purchase if they are interested in them - it is hoped that in the long-term the profits from a microtransaction system will outweigh the profits from a one-time-purchase game.
Items and features available by microtransaction can range from cosmetic (such as decorative character attire) to functional (such as weapons and items).[2] Some games allow players to acquire items that can be purchased through normal means, while others include items that can only be obtained through microtransaction.


Eve is a Free to play game, as you can download it for free, buy a plex off the market, and never pay a dime to CCP in order to play. And since plex can be used to buy any item in game instantaneously once it is sold for ISK, Eve is by Definition PAY TO WIN.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#319 - 2013-01-15 23:03:28 UTC
What a horrible sugestion.

The Tears Must Flow
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#320 - 2013-01-15 23:08:51 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
"Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means, although in some games the model applies to to free items available to all players with time and effort, which can be attained instantaneously through microtransactions

Eve is a Free to play game, as you can download it for free, buy a plex off the market, and never pay a dime to CCP in order to play.


EvE is NOT free to play.... nor is it Pay to Win...

You can ONLY play eve by PURCHASING game time from CCP. CCP does NOT allow you to play UNLESS you purchase game time from them.

Just because another player can purchase that game time from CCP and give it to you doesn't change the fundamental fact that you cannot play without purchasing gametime from CCP. Even if you never pay a cent of RL cash for your account, someone did.. .which makes this NOT free to play!!!