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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#221 - 2013-01-15 09:39:45 UTC
Quote:

Indeed.


I remember that, I loved that cane. This one guy challenged me to a one on one, and I was killing him he couldn't even break my shield tank, then all his buddies warped in on me, took them all like 3 minuets to kill me.

They said they loved my fit and were going to use it, and complimented me on it... which was weird considering they just ganked me but meh....
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#222 - 2013-01-15 09:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them. And their ISK value once sold, because thats 580 Million ISK you would not have gotten within the 2 minuets it took you to sell the Plex.

Sure you might have assets you can sell fro the same amount, But when you Buy a Plex with Cash it "Creates" a new Item in game that was not previously there, and its Value is 580 Million ISK, therfore you create a 580 Million ISK deficit in game, of which Goes into your pocket once the plex is bought off the market. When the plex is Used it disappears thus leaving you with a 580 Million ISK which you did not Earn, But purchased with Cash through RMT services.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#223 - 2013-01-15 09:47:26 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

Indeed.


I remember that, I loved that cane. This one guy challenged me to a one on one, and I was killing him he couldn't even break my shield tank, then all his buddies warped in on me, took them all like 3 minuets to kill me.

They said they loved my fit and were going to use it, and complimented me on it... which was weird considering they just ganked me but meh....

It's a terrible fit. Most assautl frigates hit harder than that thing and on top of that you have no prop mod AND you die gloriously to the first person with enough brain cells to put a neut on you. (even without a neut your tank is pretty bad)
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-01-15 09:48:02 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them.

You can't buy a plex with a plex. Try again skippy.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#225 - 2013-01-15 09:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

Indeed.


I remember that, I loved that cane. This one guy challenged me to a one on one, and I was killing him he couldn't even break my shield tank, then all his buddies warped in on me, took them all like 3 minuets to kill me.

They said they loved my fit and were going to use it, and complimented me on it... which was weird considering they just ganked me but meh....

It's a terrible fit. Most assautl frigates hit harder than that thing and on top of that you have no prop mod AND you die gloriously to the first person with enough brain cells to put a neut on you. (even without a neut your tank is pretty bad)



You should fly it before you knock it. It may not work now since the pg and cpu nerf, but it was certain a great fit back then, It had a HUGE tank and 550 - 600+ DPS with my skills an implants.

That was actually a standard fit for many PvP fleet battles I flew in 0.0 also for Pandemic Legion, So yea, it was a good fit, you simply need to figure out why.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-01-15 09:54:41 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

Indeed.


I remember that, I loved that cane. This one guy challenged me to a one on one, and I was killing him he couldn't even break my shield tank, then all his buddies warped in on me, took them all like 3 minuets to kill me.

They said they loved my fit and were going to use it, and complimented me on it... which was weird considering they just ganked me but meh....

It's a terrible fit. Most assautl frigates hit harder than that thing and on top of that you have no prop mod AND you die gloriously to the first person with enough brain cells to put a neut on you. (even without a neut your tank is pretty bad)



You should fly it before you knock it. It may not work now since the pg and cpu nerf, but it was certain a great fit back then, It had a HUGE tank and 550 - 600+ DPS with my skills an implants.

That was actually a standard fit for many PvP fleet battles I flew in 0.0 also for Pandemic Legion, So yea, it was a good fit, you simply need to figure out why.

Because you can hero tank one dude for a few minutes and then fail to make any meaningful contrubution beyond that?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#227 - 2013-01-15 09:56:23 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them.

You can't buy a plex with a plex. Try again skippy.


You have to buy the Plex with cash for it to exist in the Eve market, which means if no one pays Cash for them, You can't buy them the free way.

You can get everything in Eve for free also, Just like in most games with RMT and microtransactions or Pay to Win, You can simply get them Faster by paying Cash for them. Which is what Buying a Plex lets you do, Get them Faster.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#228 - 2013-01-15 09:58:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them.

You can't buy a plex with a plex. Try again skippy.


You have to buy the Plex with cash for it to exist in the Eve market, which means if no one pays Cash for them, You can't buy them the free way.

You can get everything in Eve for free also, Just like in most games with RMT and microtransactions or Pay to Win, You can simply get them Faster by paying Cash for them. Which is what Buying a Plex lets you do, Get them Faster.


So you aren't actually gaining any advantage over someone who plays.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#229 - 2013-01-15 09:59:03 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

Indeed.


I remember that, I loved that cane. This one guy challenged me to a one on one, and I was killing him he couldn't even break my shield tank, then all his buddies warped in on me, took them all like 3 minuets to kill me.

They said they loved my fit and were going to use it, and complimented me on it... which was weird considering they just ganked me but meh....

It's a terrible fit. Most assautl frigates hit harder than that thing and on top of that you have no prop mod AND you die gloriously to the first person with enough brain cells to put a neut on you. (even without a neut your tank is pretty bad)



You should fly it before you knock it. It may not work now since the pg and cpu nerf, but it was certain a great fit back then, It had a HUGE tank and 550 - 600+ DPS with my skills an implants.

That was actually a standard fit for many PvP fleet battles I flew in 0.0 also for Pandemic Legion, So yea, it was a good fit, you simply need to figure out why.

Because you can hero tank one dude for a few minutes and then fail to make any meaningful contrubution beyond that?


8 vs 1 is not good Odds. Stick 5 of those canes against those same 8 people, The canes will win.

You really do not understand fittings or fleet combat do you? (Serious question). The fact that I could go 1v1 with another BC (A harbinger I think), and win with very little damage to myself until his buddies hoped in to rescue him, should tell you its a good fit.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-01-15 10:00:49 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


8 vs 1 is not good Odds. Stick 5 of those canes against those same 8 people, The canes will win.

You really do not understand fittings or fleet combat do you? (Serious question). The fact that I could go 1v1 with another BC (A harbinger I think), and win with very little damage to myself until his buddies hoped in to rescue him, should tell you its a good fit.
I can prove your fit isn't nearly as good as you think it is.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#231 - 2013-01-15 10:01:07 UTC


Quote:
So you aren't actually gaining any advantage over someone who plays.


You are gaining a time advantage. It may take them weeks to get that much ISK, Buying a Plex lets you do it in minuets.

And Eve is all about time. and An 'Advantage" is an "Advantage" One which someone who can not aford to buy a plex does not have.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#232 - 2013-01-15 10:03:14 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

A Plex:

A. Is bought with real world money, this is the only way to attain one. All Plexes in game were purchased with RL Money.


This is where you went wrong. A player needs 0 real world money to attain a PLEX. They are available as ingame items in the free market. Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item, but that makes no difference to the buyer.

Secondly, you define winning as having ISK. Now you should realize that the person who can afford to pay for his subscription with ingame currency by buying PLEXes has already won the person who has to buy them from CCP with RL money.

The advantage you imagine is exactly the opposite. PLEX can't buy you an advantage over people who are already richer than you ingame, it does not open the doors of some Platinum Gear Store with special items.

.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#233 - 2013-01-15 10:03:47 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


8 vs 1 is not good Odds. Stick 5 of those canes against those same 8 people, The canes will win.

You really do not understand fittings or fleet combat do you? (Serious question). The fact that I could go 1v1 with another BC (A harbinger I think), and win with very little damage to myself until his buddies hoped in to rescue him, should tell you its a good fit.
I can prove your fit isn't nearly as good as you think it is.


Well with all the recent nerfs to the Cane I'm sure you can. I'm pretty sure that fit wont even "fit" on a cane anymore because of said nerfs and the upcoming one will remove a highslot and several other subtle functions which will make the cane sub par to what it "was" when that one you linked was killed.

I mean really that kill was like a year ago.



Why do you think I fly a rattler these days?
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#234 - 2013-01-15 10:06:56 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


8 vs 1 is not good Odds. Stick 5 of those canes against those same 8 people, The canes will win.

You really do not understand fittings or fleet combat do you? (Serious question). The fact that I could go 1v1 with another BC (A harbinger I think), and win with very little damage to myself until his buddies hoped in to rescue him, should tell you its a good fit.
I can prove your fit isn't nearly as good as you think it is.


Well with all the recent nerfs to the Cane I'm sure you can. I'm pretty sure that fit wont even "fit" on a cane anymore because of said nerfs and the upcoming one will remove a highslot and several other subtle functions which will make the cane sub par to what it "was" when that one you linked was killed.

I mean really that kill was like a year ago.



Why do you think I fly a rattler these days?

Because you think 6 sprs in the lowslots is teh awesomes?
Also your incredibly idiotic hurricane fit still fits. Though you probably have to downgrade the guns. (not like you were really using them anyway)
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#235 - 2013-01-15 10:08:00 UTC
Roime wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

A Plex:

A. Is bought with real world money, this is the only way to attain one. All Plexes in game were purchased with RL Money.


This is where you went wrong. A player needs 0 real world money to attain a PLEX. They are available as ingame items in the free market. Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item, but that makes no difference to the buyer.

Secondly, you define winning as having ISK. Now you should realize that the person who can afford to pay for his subscription with ingame currency by buying PLEXes has already won the person who has to buy them from CCP with RL money.

The advantage you imagine is exactly the opposite. PLEX can't buy you an advantage over people who are already richer than you ingame, it does not open the doors of some Platinum Gear Store with special items.


Going to quote you:

Quote:
Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item,


1. If that had not happened the plex would not be available in game, PERIOD. End of story.

2. I do not define winning as having ISK, everyone defines winning as something Individual, which is the point. A plex which is worth ISK allows you to accomplish your goals quicker and far easier then an individual who could not purchase them.

Which IS the point.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#236 - 2013-01-15 10:10:11 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Roime wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

A Plex:

A. Is bought with real world money, this is the only way to attain one. All Plexes in game were purchased with RL Money.


This is where you went wrong. A player needs 0 real world money to attain a PLEX. They are available as ingame items in the free market. Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item, but that makes no difference to the buyer.

Secondly, you define winning as having ISK. Now you should realize that the person who can afford to pay for his subscription with ingame currency by buying PLEXes has already won the person who has to buy them from CCP with RL money.

The advantage you imagine is exactly the opposite. PLEX can't buy you an advantage over people who are already richer than you ingame, it does not open the doors of some Platinum Gear Store with special items.


Going to quote you:

Quote:
Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item,


1. If that had not happened the plex would not be available in game, PERIOD. End of story.

2. I do not define winning as having ISK, everyone defines winning as something Individual, which is the point. A plex which is worth ISK allows you to accomplish your goals quicker and far easier then an individual who could not purchase them.

Which IS the point.


Plex does not enable you to do anything you cannot already do. You sell a plex for 600? I sell a deadspace hardener for 1.6 billion. The only difference is I was actually playing the game to earn the money.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#237 - 2013-01-15 10:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex from CCP with Cash and sell them in the market, and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#238 - 2013-01-15 10:12:42 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex and sell them and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.

How are you going to fly the freighter? You don't have the skill.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#239 - 2013-01-15 10:13:27 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex and sell them and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.

How are you going to fly the freighter? You don't have the skill.


yes I do actually. But the goal said nothing about "flying" it. Simply to buy it.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#240 - 2013-01-15 10:16:16 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex and sell them and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.

How are you going to fly the freighter? You don't have the skill.


yes I do actually. But the goal said nothing about "flying" it. Simply to buy it.

But you started with 0 isk. How can you start with 0 isk if you aren't a new character?