These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#181 - 2013-01-15 06:48:19 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

All of this is circumvented by the "diminishing returns" of higher meta equipment.
Example: an imperial navy heat sink is easily 10x the cost of a t2 heat sink, but it is certianly not 10x as effective.
The super short version of what I'm getting as is that while you CAN pay a stupid ammount of rl iskies to get plex and then sell them for in game iskies, then buy a rifter and fit it with officer mods. The chance that those officer mods would enable you to win a fight THAT YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE LOST is nill.

No. A "diminishing return" is still a "return."

A return that you wouldn't have gotten if you didn't pay the $$$.

As long as you get ANYTHING that helps you win, as a result of paying $$$ (whether it is "diminished" or not), you are paying to help you win. I.e. P2W. Nobody ever said that it had to help you to win "as much as any other alternative income source." ... merely that it helps you win AT ALL.



Also, you are assuming that anybody who buys a PLEX will spend the isk on T2 modules, etc. You just made that up. Says who? I might spend it on 3 T1 battleships instead of 1 battleship that I would have afforded otherwise. As long as my playstyle involves crashing a lot of battleships, then there are no "diminishing" returns there. The second two battleships will be put to just as much good use as the first one. They allow me to, for example, spend 6 hours playing in fleet combat, which I enjoy, instead of 2.

That is a flat and linear return on investment, not a diminishing one.

Having 3 battleships is immaterial as you can only fly one of them at a time. So while you might be able to lose more of them than me, you have no combat advantage over me. And the isk discrepancy can easily be remedied by just PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#182 - 2013-01-15 06:55:02 UTC
cytheras wrath wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

You did not describe pay 2 win. You described currently existing assets in EVE being exchanged by mutual consent.
ISK changed hands. Trades and exchanges occurred between players inside the game.

Lolwut?

First of all, what you are describing is what most of us like to call "payment" :
Quote:
pay
/pā/
Verb

Give (someone) money that is due for work done, goods received, or a debt incurred.


In this case, you paid when you gave money (US dollars $$$) to somebody (CCP) in exchange for goods (game time). This is Step 1.
Step 2) That game time has a value in game. Currently about 580 million isk. yes, you have to trade for this.
Step 3) Use the isk you got to buy mods and ****.
Step 4) Win.


THUS:

You paid ... in order to help you win.
If you had NOT paid, then you would not have gotten the win (at not as easily)
It is a direct and CAUSAL relationship, regardless of the fact that there is a step in between the paying and the winning.

To suggest otherwise is the equivalent of suggesting that if I shoot a person, that I didn't actually murder them, because there were steps in between me pulling the trigger and their life ending (e.g., the gunpowder exploding, the bullet flying, wind affecting its trajectory, the paramedics being unable to save the guy, etc. etc.).

Thats stupid, and you should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, much less writing it down.


Quote:
For Pay 2 Win to be valid, the game company itself must sell or guarantee the sale of the desired items which are wanted by the cash using player. CCP guarantees nothing beyond that the PLEX can be redeemed for game time.


When I point a gun at somebody and pull the trigger, it isn't "guaranteed" that they will die, either. Yet if they DO IN FACT die, I will get charged for murder. Nobody gives a crap about "what might have happened." The insurance company doesn't. The spouse of the victim doesn't. The courts don't.

Similarly, if you DO IN FACT have a higher chance of winning, then you did, in fact, "pay to win." Whether or not there was a statistical possibility that you might not have won is irrelevant. Again, nobody gives a crap about whether this was "guaranteed" to happen, or whether it might not have happened. What matters is what did happen. It matters for subscriptions. It matters for gameplay quality. It matters for balance and other players' experiences. It matters for the economy. "what ifs" and fantasy realities don't matter for any of those things, and nobody cares about them but you.

What's more, by your supremely twisted logic, it would be impossible for any game EVER to actually be an example of pay 2 win, because there is always a slight chance that after I pay them, an asteroid will fall from space and destroy their computer servers and prevent me from winning the (no longer existing) game. Thus, there is no guarantee of winning, ever.

fail Fail FAIL


i pay ccp 15$ a month, i lose ships, thus do i pay monthly to lose? or Pay 2 Lose?

in reality, pay to win means this:
i am a noob, i buy 100$ worth of stuff, now i (with 0 or -9000 skill ) win everything i do.
or
i am a noob, i buy 100$ worth of stuff, now i ( with 0 play time ) am able to do endgame.

in eve:
i am a noob, i buy 2 plex's, now i ( in a frig ) am able to buy ships and stuff that i cant use, and have to wait to be able to use it.

i think eve auto-fix's the real pay to win issue. its more of like this:
i have less time to farm isk -> i spend money on PLEX cus i have a job -> i buy someones subscription, and they give me isk.
i have no money cuz i am a jobless bum that lives with my parents or friends -> i spend too much time in eve, and make billions of isk -> i buy plex's to keep playing.

as long as buying plex' and converting it into isk, is kept from unlocking noob players with more abilitys to use more equipment that they didnt spend time on, i dont care.



The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#183 - 2013-01-15 06:56:30 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

Bolded the important part
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#184 - 2013-01-15 07:00:41 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

All of this is circumvented by the "diminishing returns" of higher meta equipment.
Example: an imperial navy heat sink is easily 10x the cost of a t2 heat sink, but it is certianly not 10x as effective.
The super short version of what I'm getting as is that while you CAN pay a stupid ammount of rl iskies to get plex and then sell them for in game iskies, then buy a rifter and fit it with officer mods. The chance that those officer mods would enable you to win a fight THAT YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE LOST is nill.

No. A "diminishing return" is still a "return."

A return that you wouldn't have gotten if you didn't pay the $$$.

As long as you get ANYTHING that helps you win, as a result of paying $$$ (whether it is "diminished" or not), you are paying to help you win. I.e. P2W. Nobody ever said that it had to help you to win "as much as any other alternative income source." ... merely that it helps you win AT ALL.



Also, you are assuming that anybody who buys a PLEX will spend the isk on T2 modules, etc. You just made that up. Says who? I might spend it on 3 T1 battleships instead of 1 battleship that I would have afforded otherwise. As long as my playstyle involves crashing a lot of battleships, then there are no "diminishing" returns there. The second two battleships will be put to just as much good use as the first one. They allow me to, for example, spend 6 hours playing in fleet combat, which I enjoy, instead of 2.

That is a flat and linear return on investment, not a diminishing one.

Having 3 battleships is immaterial as you can only fly one of them at a time. So while you might be able to lose more of them than me, you have no combat advantage over me. And the isk discrepancy can easily be remedied by just PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.



Alright hows this:

We both are noobs who have been playing the game for .. 3 months, we both have the skills for Battleships, yet neither of us can afford them.

Your poor, so you realize you need to spend weeks grinding so you can get the isk to buy and fit your battleship correctly.


I on the other hand am decently wealthy, so I simply buy a plex, sell it and within 1 hour I have a fully fitted and rigged BS. I thin hunt you down and proceed to kill you in every ship you undock in, and since you don't have the isk to buy a decent ship with which to beat me, you die repeatedly, and I troll you and call you a noob, and say things like thnks for teh loot noob! You mad bro?


1. If I had not bought the plex, I would not have been able to ROFLstomp you into the ground. in fact wed have been on even footing and flying basically the same type of ship its even possible you would have ROFLstomped me.

2. Thus buying the Plex gave me an Unfair advantage over you.

3. Pay to Win.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#185 - 2013-01-15 07:01:34 UTC

Pay to Win

Inigo Montoya wrote:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


The colloquium "Pay to Win" does NOT mean "You pay RL Cash and gain stuff". It means you pay RL Cash and gain an advantage over other players.... More importantly, it usually means you pay RL cash and gain an unfair advantage over other players...

This is NOT the case with plex....

PLex does not SPAWN isk... Plex does not SPAWN Skillpoints... Plex does not SPAWN ships, or mods, or anything that gives you an advantage over me. It simply represents game time... NOTHING MORE....

Someone can earn isk in game, earn ships in game, earn skillpoints in game, earn modules in game.... but they cannot gain these items from out-of-game sources. Every SHIP, MODULES, SKILLPOINT, or ASSET in EvE is acquired by player activity...

I can earn isk, ships and modules, skillpoints exactly the same way as ANYONE ELSE IN GAME....

Plex does not make you magically fly a titan... It does not magically provide you a supercap... it does not provide you anything other than game time unless you can find someone willing to give up their game investments for that PLEX. How can you not understand that every item in game requires the same investment to ascertain, no matter WHO controls it. Plex does not change the investment needed to ascertain those assets., hence it is NOT pay to win.... Instead, PLEX is a bartering asset that allows you and me to trade pre-invested assets for future game time.

Now quit being so DENSE....
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-01-15 07:03:26 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

All of this is circumvented by the "diminishing returns" of higher meta equipment.
Example: an imperial navy heat sink is easily 10x the cost of a t2 heat sink, but it is certianly not 10x as effective.
The super short version of what I'm getting as is that while you CAN pay a stupid ammount of rl iskies to get plex and then sell them for in game iskies, then buy a rifter and fit it with officer mods. The chance that those officer mods would enable you to win a fight THAT YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE LOST is nill.

No. A "diminishing return" is still a "return."

A return that you wouldn't have gotten if you didn't pay the $$$.

As long as you get ANYTHING that helps you win, as a result of paying $$$ (whether it is "diminished" or not), you are paying to help you win. I.e. P2W. Nobody ever said that it had to help you to win "as much as any other alternative income source." ... merely that it helps you win AT ALL.



Also, you are assuming that anybody who buys a PLEX will spend the isk on T2 modules, etc. You just made that up. Says who? I might spend it on 3 T1 battleships instead of 1 battleship that I would have afforded otherwise. As long as my playstyle involves crashing a lot of battleships, then there are no "diminishing" returns there. The second two battleships will be put to just as much good use as the first one. They allow me to, for example, spend 6 hours playing in fleet combat, which I enjoy, instead of 2.

That is a flat and linear return on investment, not a diminishing one.

Having 3 battleships is immaterial as you can only fly one of them at a time. So while you might be able to lose more of them than me, you have no combat advantage over me. And the isk discrepancy can easily be remedied by just PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.



Alright hows this:

We both are noobs who have been playing the game for .. 3 months, we both have the skills for Battleships, yet neither of us can afford them.

Your poor, so you realize you need to spend weeks grinding so you can get the isk to buy and fit your battleship correctly.


I on the other hand am decently wealthy, so I simply buy a plex, sell it and within 1 hour I have a fully fitted and rigged BS. I thin hunt you down and proceed to kill you in every ship you undock in, and since you don't have the isk to buy a decent ship with which to beat me, you die repeatedly, and I troll you and call you a noob, and say things like thnks for teh loot noob! You mad bro?


1. If I had not bought the plex, I would not have been able to ROFLstomp you into the ground. in fact wed have been on even footing and flying basically the same type of ship its even possible you would have ROFLstomped me.

2. Thus buying the Plex gave me an Unfair advantage over you.

3. Pay to Win.

I orbit you in a cruiser and kill you because your clumsy battleship can't track me.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#187 - 2013-01-15 07:03:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

Bolded the important part


Plexes can not be obtained by free means, They ONLY are placed in game when a PLAYER BUYS THEM with REAL CASH.

You can only Obtain them with ISK AFTER another Player PAYS REAL CASH for them.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#188 - 2013-01-15 07:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

All of this is circumvented by the "diminishing returns" of higher meta equipment.
Example: an imperial navy heat sink is easily 10x the cost of a t2 heat sink, but it is certianly not 10x as effective.
The super short version of what I'm getting as is that while you CAN pay a stupid ammount of rl iskies to get plex and then sell them for in game iskies, then buy a rifter and fit it with officer mods. The chance that those officer mods would enable you to win a fight THAT YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERWISE LOST is nill.

No. A "diminishing return" is still a "return."

A return that you wouldn't have gotten if you didn't pay the $$$.

As long as you get ANYTHING that helps you win, as a result of paying $$$ (whether it is "diminished" or not), you are paying to help you win. I.e. P2W. Nobody ever said that it had to help you to win "as much as any other alternative income source." ... merely that it helps you win AT ALL.



Also, you are assuming that anybody who buys a PLEX will spend the isk on T2 modules, etc. You just made that up. Says who? I might spend it on 3 T1 battleships instead of 1 battleship that I would have afforded otherwise. As long as my playstyle involves crashing a lot of battleships, then there are no "diminishing" returns there. The second two battleships will be put to just as much good use as the first one. They allow me to, for example, spend 6 hours playing in fleet combat, which I enjoy, instead of 2.

That is a flat and linear return on investment, not a diminishing one.

Having 3 battleships is immaterial as you can only fly one of them at a time. So while you might be able to lose more of them than me, you have no combat advantage over me. And the isk discrepancy can easily be remedied by just PLAYING THE DAMN GAME.



Alright hows this:

We both are noobs who have been playing the game for .. 3 months, we both have the skills for Battleships, yet neither of us can afford them.

Your poor, so you realize you need to spend weeks grinding so you can get the isk to buy and fit your battleship correctly.


I on the other hand am decently wealthy, so I simply buy a plex, sell it and within 1 hour I have a fully fitted and rigged BS. I thin hunt you down and proceed to kill you in every ship you undock in, and since you don't have the isk to buy a decent ship with which to beat me, you die repeatedly, and I troll you and call you a noob, and say things like thnks for teh loot noob! You mad bro?


1. If I had not bought the plex, I would not have been able to ROFLstomp you into the ground. in fact wed have been on even footing and flying basically the same type of ship its even possible you would have ROFLstomped me.

2. Thus buying the Plex gave me an Unfair advantage over you.

3. Pay to Win.

I orbit you in a cruiser and kill you because your clumsy battleship can't track me.


Heavy neuts, Web/scram or disrupt and torps kills you. And your cruiser would never break my Shield BS's tank.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#189 - 2013-01-15 07:07:21 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

Bolded the important part


Plexes can not be obtained by free means, They ONLY are placed in game when a PLAYER BUYS THEM with REAL CASH.

You can only Obtain them with ISK AFTER another Player PAYS REAL CASH for them.

You can't kill me with a plex, or mine stuff with it, or use it to ferry cargo around. All you can do with it is either, add game time (which is more expensive than buying gametime directly) or sell it for isk (which I can get by simply playing the game, or selling stuff)
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#190 - 2013-01-15 07:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

Bolded the important part


Plexes can not be obtained by free means, They ONLY are placed in game when a PLAYER BUYS THEM with REAL CASH.

You can only Obtain them with ISK AFTER another Player PAYS REAL CASH for them.

You can't kill me with a plex, or mine stuff with it, or use it to ferry cargo around. All you can do with it is either, add game time (which is more expensive than buying gametime directly) or sell it for isk (which I can get by simply playing the game, or selling stuff)



let me ask you something:

Can you.. sell a plex for isk?

Can you buy ships items, and gear with ISK?



You see, in my combat example the only difference between me ROFLstomping you, and not, is the ISK to buy and fit the proper ships. If I was not able to sell PLEX for ISK, It would not have happened.

Therfore by doing such, I gained an Unfair advantage over you.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#191 - 2013-01-15 07:11:22 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:



let me ask you something:

Can you.. sell a plex for isk?

Can you buy ships items, and gear with ISK?

What is stopping me from simply earning the isk by playing the game?
cytheras wrath
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-01-15 07:15:23 UTC
Quote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.


you made me laugh very very hard when i saw this:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

with your definition from wikipedia (LOL) your saying that a Plex is:
...can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

when you can obtain a plex by free means... by doing:
missions > buying on market from reward/bounty payout
mining > selling ore or minerals and buying on market
exploration > selling junk and buying stuff on market

essentually you can get isk from some means in eve ( Free ) and buy a plex. so a plex is NOT a pay-2-win item.
and the last time i payed for a Plex in eve, i don't recall winning, i just lost more stuff....faster because i had more isk to dump.

Also, a tip to not make people laugh, when your basing your entire belief of something on a webpage that any average/dumbassmotherfracker can post to make their own ideas true... well its just stupid lol
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#193 - 2013-01-15 07:18:42 UTC
cytheras wrath wrote:
Quote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.


you made me laugh very very hard when i saw this:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

with your definition from wikipedia (LOL) your saying that a Plex is:
...can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

when you can obtain a plex by free means... by doing:
missions > buying on market from reward/bounty payout
mining > selling ore or minerals and buying on market
exploration > selling junk and buying stuff on market

essentually you can get isk from some means in eve ( Free ) and buy a plex. so a plex is NOT a pay-2-win item.
and the last time i payed for a Plex in eve, i don't recall winning, i just lost more stuff....faster because i had more isk to dump.

Also, a tip to not make people laugh, when your basing your entire belief of something on a webpage that any average/dumbassmotherfracker can post to make their own ideas true... well its just stupid lol
My biggest issue is he appears to believe that a bigger ship is the be-all-end-all of combat.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#194 - 2013-01-15 07:18:53 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:



let me ask you something:

Can you.. sell a plex for isk?

Can you buy ships items, and gear with ISK?

What is stopping me from simply earning the isk by playing the game?



Nothing.

But you wont get it in 1 hour or 5 minuets as a new player (or even an old player with no ISK in their wallet), Like I could If I bought and sold a Plex.


You see in war, the loser generally loses not because of skill or numbers although these are factors but because of attrition, or economical reasons.

You can kill entire alliances if you can manage to cut off their supply of weapons, arms and armor. Stop them from making ISK and they can't buy ships. If they can't buy ships, they can't defend their space.

If I allow you to Buy Plex for cash and sell them for ISK, well... That allows you to thrive, and survive and possibly even win where in any other circumstance, you would have Lost.

ISK is the deciding factor in 99.9% of all wars.

You can have absolutely no skill, and put noobs in Frigates and own the battlefield, so long as you have a continuous and steady supply of Frigates, Goon does it and did it and it works fantastically.

So you see, by allowing the almost instantaneous accumulation of ISK through a CASH system which excepts real money for ISK basically (Because that's what your doing), It gives you a clear advantage over the state you would be in otherwise.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#195 - 2013-01-15 07:19:06 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

Bolded the important part


Plexes can not be obtained by free means, They ONLY are placed in game when a PLAYER BUYS THEM with REAL CASH.

You can only Obtain them with ISK AFTER another Player PAYS REAL CASH for them.

You can't kill me with a plex, or mine stuff with it, or use it to ferry cargo around. All you can do with it is either, add game time (which is more expensive than buying gametime directly) or sell it for isk (which I can get by simply playing the game, or selling stuff)



let me ask you something:

Can you.. sell a plex for isk?

Can you buy ships items, and gear with ISK?


You cannot sell plex for isk....
You can swap with another player plex for isk.... There is subtle difference I don't think you understand.

Isk is acquired not from plex, but from an investment of energy in eve. You have to rat, run missions, do whatever to gain isk... Players can then chose to swap that isk for a plex, but no-one just "gets" isk for plex.... Do you understand?

All in game assets require in-game effort to ascertain.... All skillpoints require an investment in time to ascertain.. Plex does NOTHING to bypass this effort and/or time.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#196 - 2013-01-15 07:22:45 UTC
cytheras wrath wrote:
Quote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.


you made me laugh very very hard when i saw this:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

with your definition from wikipedia (LOL) your saying that a Plex is:
...can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

when you can obtain a plex by free means... by doing:
missions > buying on market from reward/bounty payout
mining > selling ore or minerals and buying on market
exploration > selling junk and buying stuff on market

essentually you can get isk from some means in eve ( Free ) and buy a plex. so a plex is NOT a pay-2-win item.
and the last time i payed for a Plex in eve, i don't recall winning, i just lost more stuff....faster because i had more isk to dump.

Also, a tip to not make people laugh, when your basing your entire belief of something on a webpage that any average/dumbassmotherfracker can post to make their own ideas true... well its just stupid lol



Answer me one Question:

Does a player need to buy a Plex with real Money, in order for it to end up on the market, so you can buy it with ISK?

If your answer to that is Yes, the your entire post is invalid. As you Admit that the only way a Plex can end up in game is through an RMT transaction.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#197 - 2013-01-15 07:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Quote:
You cannot sell plex for isk....
You can swap with another player plex for isk.... There is subtle difference I don't think you understand.

Isk is acquired not from plex, but from an investment of energy in eve. You have to rat, run missions, do whatever to gain isk... Players can then chose to swap that isk for a plex, but no-one just "gets" isk for plex.... Do you understand?

All in game assets require in-game effort to ascertain.... All skillpoints require an investment in time to ascertain.. Plex does NOTHING to bypass this effort and/or time.



I put a plex on the market in the "SELL" orders for 580 million ISK. Someone 'BUYs" it from me....

Yep looks like I just Sold a Plex for ISK.



I put a Batlleship on the market for 150 million ISK in the "SELL" orders, Someone "Buys" it from me.

I just sold a Battleship for ISK.


Is there a difference in reality between these 2? Nope. They both got sold for ISK profit. Except One required an RMT transaction for real money in order for me to obtain 580 million ISK. and the Other Did not.

=== Pay to win.
cytheras wrath
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-01-15 07:44:32 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Nothing.

But you wont get it in 1 hour or 5 minuets as a new player (or even an old player with no ISK in their wallet), Like I could If I bought and sold a Plex.

Yes, but i dont see that new player taking advantage of a fat wallet... what are they going to buy? skill books? civi weapons?

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

You can kill entire alliances if you can manage to cut off their supply of weapons, arms and armor. Stop them from making ISK and they can't buy ships. If they can't buy ships, they can't defend their space.


Yes and no, this is a game, these alliance have something called 'Alts' who sit in highsec and do missions all day, and if they run out of money, they log onto these 'Alts' and wire isk to their 'mains'. a difficult concept i know, but trust me, its very very advanced!
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


ISK is the deciding factor in 99.9% of all wars.


No, wrong, quit your arguement now, infact most wars are 'won and lost' in eve based solely on how fast you can keep people from participating in the war, or leaving the said group you are fighting.

99.9% of the time, everyone has isk to put together a simple tackler frig to partake in war, and if they have bad leadership that causes them to seek out losing battles, its their fault.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

You can have absolutely no skill, and put noobs in Frigates and own the battlefield, so long as you have a continuous and steady supply of Frigates, Goon does it and did it and it works fantastically.


actually, goons just have so many people online that when people decide to attack goons, they get overwhelmed, not because goons have loads of cash, but because they have very very rediculusly high numbers of participating combatents to the point where people can miss a CTA and not get yelled at because the sheer volume of people that initially went was more then enough to scare a fleet away.

now goons typically run the flavor of the week setups in BC's, or other cheaper ships.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

So you see, by allowing the almost instantaneous accumulation of ISK through a CASH system which excepts real money for ISK basically (Because that's what your doing), It gives you a clear advantage over the state you would be in otherwise.

No, it does not give any advantage except the ability to continue to play and participate in a said event at the level you wish to assert yourself at. with 600m isk, if i wanted to fly T1 frigs into war, i can survive hundreds of loss's before i need to get more isk, but if i flew battleships or battlecruisers, i can maybe handle 1 or 2 deaths and be 'forced' to drop my size in the fleet to a cruiser.
based on your views of war, its very 1 sides and without the overall picture. a smart gang in all frigs totaling of 20m isk fielded can and will succeed in finding and destroying more isk then what they fielded, due to people underestimating frigs.

any person who has participated in atleast 1-3 lagitimate wars in eve ( constant fighting and both sides participating in a fight 1-2 times a day atleast ) will know what you are saying is false, and biased on someone applying real life war tactics to a virtual universe where ISK = power, and manpower is the only limiting factor.

-Had to cut off 2 of the lease importalt facts-
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#199 - 2013-01-15 07:44:48 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
cytheras wrath wrote:
Quote:
The definition of Pay to win is cut and dry, your opinion of what it SHOULD mean is irrelevant.

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.


you made me laugh very very hard when i saw this:

Pay to win means:

(Again): "Pay-to-win" is sometimes used as a derogatory term to refer to games where paying for in-game items can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

taken from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtransaction


THAT is the definition. and by that definition, Plexes are in fact Pay to win items.

with your definition from wikipedia (LOL) your saying that a Plex is:
...can give the player an advantage over other players, particularly if the items cannot be obtained by free means.

when you can obtain a plex by free means... by doing:
missions > buying on market from reward/bounty payout
mining > selling ore or minerals and buying on market
exploration > selling junk and buying stuff on market

essentually you can get isk from some means in eve ( Free ) and buy a plex. so a plex is NOT a pay-2-win item.
and the last time i payed for a Plex in eve, i don't recall winning, i just lost more stuff....faster because i had more isk to dump.

Also, a tip to not make people laugh, when your basing your entire belief of something on a webpage that any average/dumbassmotherfracker can post to make their own ideas true... well its just stupid lol
My biggest issue is he appears to believe that a bigger ship is the be-all-end-all of combat.



A larger ship is not the end all be all of combat.... But, Since I fly a Shield tanking BS, and kill everything from frigs to t3 cruisers, to other battleships in it, with Neuts, webs and torps which hit out to 30k and 60k depending on my ammo. Perhaps when fit right, they are. Or perhaps it's simply my play style.
cytheras wrath
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-01-15 07:53:29 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

A larger ship is not the end all be all of combat.... But, Since I fly a Shield tanking BS, and kill everything from frigs to t3 cruisers, to other battleships in it, with Neuts, webs and torps which hit out to 30k and 60k depending on my ammo. Perhaps when fit right, they are. Or perhaps it's simply my play style.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Malcorian+Vandsteidt#losses

your arguement is invalid, you sir, are a nullsec lacky, basicly a filler in a fleet of numbers.

in a fleet of number, if you add 100 dps or 1000 dps, you only apply your dps for a set amount of time, and then get a kill mail and some experiance. and since your in nullsec, the people you face are either solo, or small gang pirates looking for nullsec miners or ratters to kill.

do some 'real' pvp where you actually find, and kill a person 1 on 1. then come back and comment.