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Margin trading skill is a scam but no retribution.

Author
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#61 - 2013-01-13 05:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Grison
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Semantics.... Your suggestion is to ensure every buy order you sell to is 100% guaranteed....


Yup.

The point of margin trading is to let you perform more trading overall than you have the isk for at any one moment.

Making the change I suggested would do nothing to undermine that legitimate usage of margin trading. However, it would, as you say, allow traders to be confident in posted market orders, by eliminating a potentially undetectable scam. This would simply make trading in Eve that much less of a roll of the dice, and that much more of a game of skill.

And games are always more fun when they rely on skill over luck. That's why chess has survived for hundreds of years, and why nobody over the age of 5 plays chutes and ladders.

Why are you so afraid of a world where your success in the market is based on the choices you make, instead of the coins you flip?


A margin scam is never undetectable. If it was undetectable the scam wouldn't be worth anything.

a margin scam = super high price. /w the min volume set to the quantity of the order.

yes

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2013-01-13 05:51:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Alex Grison wrote:
A margin scam is never undetectable. If it was undetectable the scam wouldn't be worth anything.


I mean undetectable as in "completely indistinguishable from a legitimate trade."

It's not ALWAYS indistinguishable. Often, greedy people set it up in a way that is blatantly obvious if you know what to look for. But it can potentially be indistinguishable, if the scammer is more skilled and more patient.

For example, if there are three of some rare item for sale in your station for a modest 9% more than the recent market average, and there are three buy orders, in different nearby systems, one for 10% more than average, one for 17% more than average, and one for about average. The item is not very volatile, but at the same time, 10% swings are not unheard of for that item. The minimum buy order for the 3 items in your station is set to 1. Is that a scam?

You have no idea if it's a scam or not. It might be. A scammer could easily profit from that enough to make it worthwhile, depending. But then again, it could just be an item that somebody legitimately wants at the moment slightly more than people normally want that item for. I buy **** for 20% more than market all the time. Hell sometimes even 200% more if i'm especially lazy.

If you go for that trade, you are rolling dice, nothing more. There's no skill in rolling dice. There's just luck. And luck is less fun than skill.



ANOTHER example, this time totally different:

There's 10,000 units of item for sale in your station. The item is not so common that everybody deals in it, but it's not at all "Rare" either. For instance, perhaps some sort of faction ammunition, in an out of the way region. The minimum buy order is 1. The item in question is especially volatile, and recent history has it spiking and crashing several times in the last couple of months, sometimes suddenly. Currently, it is selling for 40% more than the 5 day average. However, you can see that this has happened before, and that it was a real shift in the past. Some other station in another region is buying the stuff for 60% more than the 5 day average.

Is that a scam? Again, you have no idea. It is quite possible for a margin scammer to make money off of a situation like this, even though the minimum buy order is 1. Yet it is also quite possible this is a legit trade. I make trades like this often, and they turn out to be legit.

Again, you're rolling the dice here, because no amount of knowledge or skill will tell you for sure if that's a scam or not.


Your simplistic set of rules:
Quote:
a margin scam = super high price. /w the min volume set to the quantity of the order.

would not save you from either of these potential scams, if they were in fact scams.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2013-01-13 14:22:37 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Why are you so afraid of a world where your success in the market is based on the choices you make, instead of the coins you flip?
Why are you? The choice people have now, is to check the market and be aware before they make an investment. No one would fall for this, if they did some price and history checking before hand.

The margin trading skill in this instance, is there to give information the seller wishes the buyer to believe. If the buyer doesn't do his homework and relies upon this information only, why is this the fault of that skill?

It looks like you now want this decision making, to be based on calling heads and flipping a two headed coin.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#64 - 2013-01-13 16:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
Sure, this particular skill does make it easier, but increasing the damage on T1 ships also makes it easier to suicide gank. Is this a problem? Would you thus also vote for T1 cruisers to be removed, because CCP is giving us tools to grief you?

The problem lies not within the skill itself. Players might as well be putting contracts up, and regular buy orders, and cancel them as soon as the contract gets completed. So the idea about the skill is pointless.

As for the identity/retribution part... well. Just use the name of the contractor who sold you these items in the first place. Those are the same people who put up the margin buy orders for the same items. Either you haven't thought this through clearly, or already realized one important thing:

People who scam use alts. People who do trading/contract/market scams most definitely use alts. And more to the points: these alts never undock. I'm really not sure what you are trying to accomplish, other than venting steam because you apparently got margin trading scammed, and did not bother to check price histories and assess the value yourself.

If you let a single player tell you how much an item is - be it verbally in a chat, or indirectly in the market window - and take his word for it, you deserve to be scammed.
Kuro Bon
Test Corp 123
#65 - 2013-01-13 17:58:58 UTC
Alex Grison wrote:

A margin scam is never undetectable. If it was undetectable the scam wouldn't be worth anything.

a margin scam = super high price. /w the min volume set to the quantity of the order.


This is just wrong. Very expensive items that trade in volume-1 can be undetectably margin-trading scammed.

Place an uncovered margin-trading buy order for a Carrier at the going rate when you don't have sufficient funds to cover the trade. It's undetectable and the seller (a) incurs the risk of moving a Carrier to said-location, and (b) will be charged a broker fee even though the trade does not go through.

Personally, I think margin-trading would be 'acceptable' if the seller was not charged the broker fee for the failed order.

Protip: 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour.

Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#66 - 2013-01-13 17:59:39 UTC
The main problem I have with the MT scam, is that it requires someone to perform a certain specific set of actions, in order to cause the market to fail. It's a really iffy grey area, and there's past history with CCP not liking that sort of thing. If you're aware of the "tracking exploit", it falls in the same book to me. Players perform a specific set of actions to cause the system to fail, for their benefit. To continue the analogy, there's no reason anyone should die from people using the tracking exploit, because it's really obvious if you see someone using it, so you can just avoid them.

The easy solution to it already exists in game, just allow a wallet to go negative on margin trades.

www.minerbumping.com

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2013-01-13 18:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Mag's wrote:
Why are you?

I explained why. Because luck is not as fun as skill. Almost all of the most classic games that have survived the ages are pure skill games. Go, Chess, Mancala, Nine Men's Morris, etc.

Having a little bit of luck is okay now and then as a crutch, when skill is too inconvenient. Like for instance, whether your weapons hit beyond optimal range. Making this skill based would require making Eve a first person shooter, which would be much too high of a cost and would screw up everything. So instead, they just work on luck, because that's the best we can do.

However, when you have the opportunity to remove luck from the game with a trivially easy coding fix, and with zero negative side effects to non-scammers, you should take it, because the game will be improved.


Quote:
The choice people have now, is to check the market and be aware before they make an investment. No one would fall for this, if they did some price and history checking before hand.

The margin trading skill in this instance, is there to give information the seller wishes the buyer to believe. If the buyer doesn't do his homework and relies upon this information only, why is this the fault of that skill?

Because this is simply wrong. Doing your homework will NOT save you if the scam is done well.

I already gave two EXPLICIT examples earlier, with example prices and everything, of situations that are ambiguous.

By all means, explain how "doing your homework" would help you in either of those cases. Then we can talk.

Quote:
The problem lies not within the skill itself. Players might as well be putting contracts up, and regular buy orders, and cancel them as soon as the contract gets completed. So the idea about the skill is pointless.

This is not a viable replacement. Yes, you could do that, but most margin trading scammers would likely have multiple scams seeded at once (you can have up to 3 per character with no danger of accidentally having a successful buy order go through), and the orders will often sit there for several days, with only a few minutes sometime during which you have the opportunity to manually cancel.

Nobody is going to sit there and check their computer every 5 minutes for 3 days straight just in case somebody takes the bait. You have to, like, you know, sleep and stuff...

Also, if you screw up and miss it, and somebody slips by, that can make you lose so much money that it would take multiple successful scams to make up for it. Without margin trading being able to help, it would just be way too risky and labor intensive, compared to other simpler scams (that ARE detectable and aren't a threat to Eve), like "double your money" etc. Or just mining or something legitimately.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-01-13 19:30:18 UTC
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
The main problem I have with the MT scam, is that it requires someone to perform a certain specific set of actions, in order to cause the market to fail. It's a really iffy grey area, and there's past history with CCP not liking that sort of thing. If you're aware of the "tracking exploit", it falls in the same book to me. Players perform a specific set of actions to cause the system to fail, for their benefit. To continue the analogy, there's no reason anyone should die from people using the tracking exploit, because it's really obvious if you see someone using it, so you can just avoid them.

The easy solution to it already exists in game, just allow a wallet to go negative on margin trades.


That doesn't make much sense. Pretty much everything requires you to perform a specific set of actions to cause something to happen. Sometimes it's to succeed at something and sometimes it's to cause a failure. It's a terrible thing to use to judge things, since it's incapable of making any meaningful demarkation lines between the actions you want to include and the actions you want to exclude. The tracking exploit allowed infinite tracking, which shouldn't be possible in any circumstance. With margin trading you have a market order failing due to insufficient funds, which is exactly what is supposed to happen in such situations. It's a clever use of a working as intended mechanic, which causes issues to people who don't know the proper value of the items they are trading in.

Your easy solution is like most easy solutions. Absolutely god awful and would make the situation much worse then the marging trading scam ever even theoretically could. A negative wallet isn't like having some debt. It's practical incapability to do almost anything in the game and would mean the system creates ISK out of nothing to pay the seller. You could easily manipulate that free payout to be huge, which means infinite free money for anyone who does it. You would be risking breaking the entire game for everyone in order to address a minor inconvenience in the market system.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2013-01-13 19:39:34 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
The main problem I have with the MT scam, is that it requires someone to perform a certain specific set of actions, in order to cause the market to fail. It's a really iffy grey area, and there's past history with CCP not liking that sort of thing. If you're aware of the "tracking exploit", it falls in the same book to me. Players perform a specific set of actions to cause the system to fail, for their benefit. To continue the analogy, there's no reason anyone should die from people using the tracking exploit, because it's really obvious if you see someone using it, so you can just avoid them.

The easy solution to it already exists in game, just allow a wallet to go negative on margin trades.


That doesn't make much sense. Pretty much everything requires you to perform a specific set of actions to cause something to happen. Sometimes it's to succeed at something and sometimes it's to cause a failure. It's a terrible thing to use to judge things, since it's incapable of making any meaningful demarkation lines between the actions you want to include and the actions you want to exclude. The tracking exploit allowed infinite tracking, which shouldn't be possible in any circumstance. With margin trading you have a market order failing due to insufficient funds, which is exactly what is supposed to happen in such situations. It's a clever use of a working as intended mechanic, which causes issues to people who don't know the proper value of the items they are trading in.

Your easy solution is like most easy solutions. Absolutely god awful and would make the situation much worse then the marging trading scam ever even theoretically could. A negative wallet isn't like having some debt. It's practical incapability to do almost anything in the game and would mean the system creates ISK out of nothing to pay the seller. You could easily manipulate that free payout to be huge, which means infinite free money for anyone who does it. You would be risking breaking the entire game for everyone in order to address a minor inconvenience in the market system.


Agreed, that's a godawful solution.

Fortunately, though, there is already a different solution on the table that is not godawful, and in fact has no side effects: requiring you to have enough isk in your wallet to cover your one largest buy order at any time.

Considering the fact that not one person has actually given any reason why that solution would break anything, it's pretty safe to say that this discussion is no longer about the solution. We already have a perfect solution. Instead, the discussion at the moment is is about people arguing whether the problem philosophically SHOULD be solved in the first place.
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#70 - 2013-01-13 19:43:56 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Lovely Dumplings wrote:
The main problem I have with the MT scam, is that it requires someone to perform a certain specific set of actions, in order to cause the market to fail. It's a really iffy grey area, and there's past history with CCP not liking that sort of thing. If you're aware of the "tracking exploit", it falls in the same book to me. Players perform a specific set of actions to cause the system to fail, for their benefit. To continue the analogy, there's no reason anyone should die from people using the tracking exploit, because it's really obvious if you see someone using it, so you can just avoid them.

The easy solution to it already exists in game, just allow a wallet to go negative on margin trades.


That doesn't make much sense. Pretty much everything requires you to perform a specific set of actions to cause something to happen. Sometimes it's to succeed at something and sometimes it's to cause a failure. It's a terrible thing to use to judge things, since it's incapable of making any meaningful demarkation lines between the actions you want to include and the actions you want to exclude. The tracking exploit allowed infinite tracking, which shouldn't be possible in any circumstance. With margin trading you have a market order failing due to insufficient funds, which is exactly what is supposed to happen in such situations. It's a clever use of a working as intended mechanic, which causes issues to people who don't know the proper value of the items they are trading in.

Your easy solution is like most easy solutions. Absolutely god awful and would make the situation much worse then the marging trading scam ever even theoretically could. A negative wallet isn't like having some debt. It's practical incapability to do almost anything in the game and would mean the system creates ISK out of nothing to pay the seller. You could easily manipulate that free payout to be huge, which means infinite free money for anyone who does it. You would be risking breaking the entire game for everyone in order to address a minor inconvenience in the market system.


Agreed, that's a godawful solution.

Fortunately, though, there is already a different solution on the table that is not godawful, and in fact has no side effects: requiring you to have enough isk in your wallet to cover your one largest buy order at any time.

Considering the fact that not one person has actually given any reason why that solution would break anything, it's pretty safe to say that this discussion is no longer about the solution. We already have a perfect solution. Instead, the discussion at the moment is is about people arguing whether the problem philosophically SHOULD be solved in the first place.


CCP Isn't going to change anything. This thread is totally dead. Just a bunch of people running in circles.

yes

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-01-13 19:47:42 UTC
Quote:
CCP Isn't going to change anything. This thread is totally dead. Just a bunch of people running in circles.

"CCP hasn't changed X yet" does not logically lead to "CCP will never change X."

The whole point of this entire forum is to discuss things that CCP haven't changed yet...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#72 - 2013-01-13 20:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
I explained why. Because luck is not as fun as skill. Almost all of the most classic games that have survived the ages are pure skill games. Go, Chess, Mancala, Nine Men's Morris, etc.

Having a little bit of luck is okay now and then as a crutch, when skill is too inconvenient. Like for instance, whether your weapons hit beyond optimal range. Making this skill based would require making Eve a first person shooter, which would be much too high of a cost and would screw up everything. So instead, they just work on luck, because that's the best we can do.

However, when you have the opportunity to remove luck from the game with a trivially easy coding fix, and with zero negative side effects to non-scammers, you should take it, because the game will be improved.
Luck on who's side? Because if you take your time and check before hand, you don't fall for this. I never have, never will. Simply because I do my homework first, before thinking something is great and I'll make a large profit on it.

But let's face it, luck has no relevance here and is merely an emotional response. But if you insist on saying it is a part of this, then the scammer relies on it far more than the buyer.

Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Because this is simply wrong. Doing your homework will NOT save you if the scam is done well.

I already gave two EXPLICIT examples earlier, with example prices and everything, of situations that are ambiguous.

By all means, explain how "doing your homework" would help you in either of those cases. Then we can talk.
Your first example, already involves obvious risky trading from the start. You cannot blame the MT skill, for not getting more information over a longer period, or believing you have enough and simply going for it. Risky trade, is risky trade. A prime example of buyer beware, even without the MT skill.

Not sure what you're going on about in the second example. Too high a price, is too high a price. This scam relies upon you buying something, at an inflated price. If there is a buy order that is even higher, then alarm bells should start ringing. But instead people that fall for it, think it's cash tills they can hear.

Lack of knowledge on the real average price of an item, is NOT the fault of the MT skill. It's the fault of not finding the information. Then there's simply either not having it or accepting you don't have all the facts and going for it anyway.
None of which, are the fault of the MT skill.

The thing that drives this and always will, is peoples greed. People still spam Jita with the double your ISK scams. Why? Because even though they are so obvious, people's greed gets the better of them and they still try it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2013-01-13 22:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Mag's wrote:
Your first example, already involves obvious risky trading from the start. You cannot blame the MT skill, for not getting more information over a longer period, or believing you have enough and simply going for it. Risky trade, is risky trade. A prime example of buyer beware, even without the MT skill.

Not sure what you're going on about in the second example. Too high a price, is too high a price. This scam relies upon you buying something, at an inflated price. If there is a buy order that is even higher, then alarm bells should start ringing. But instead people that fall for it, think it's cash tills they can hear.
'

You didn't answer my question, for either of the two examples. I didn't ask you "Are these risky trades?" I asked you whether they were scams or not.

It's a critical difference, because a trade simply being "risky" for normal reasons is not necessarily a reason to avoid it. Risky trades are valid and logical trades to pursue sometimes and they should form a portion of any balanced investment portfolio. You shouldn't rely entirely on them, but to avoid all risk entirely is to avoid all profit.

Scams, on the other hand, should never be pursued, because you'll always lose, if you know it's a scam.


So again, I ask you, "How can you determine whether either of those two situations is or is not a scam?" Feel free to assume that you have perfect knowledge of both situations: everything that would potentially be available to you as a trader in the game considering the trade. if you require some sort of data that I haven't provided to answer the question, just ask, and I'll give you the numbers.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#74 - 2013-01-14 00:35:52 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Alex Grison wrote:
A margin scam is never undetectable. If it was undetectable the scam wouldn't be worth anything.


I mean undetectable as in "completely indistinguishable from a legitimate trade."

It's not ALWAYS indistinguishable. Often, greedy people set it up in a way that is blatantly obvious if you know what to look for. But it can potentially be indistinguishable, if the scammer is more skilled and more patient.

For example, if there are three of some rare item for sale in your station for a modest 9% more than the recent market average, and there are three buy orders, in different nearby systems, one for 10% more than average, one for 17% more than average, and one for about average. The item is not very volatile, but at the same time, 10% swings are not unheard of for that item. The minimum buy order for the 3 items in your station is set to 1. Is that a scam?

You have no idea if it's a scam or not. It might be. A scammer could easily profit from that enough to make it worthwhile, depending. But then again, it could just be an item that somebody legitimately wants at the moment slightly more than people normally want that item for. I buy **** for 20% more than market all the time. Hell sometimes even 200% more if i'm especially lazy.

If you go for that trade, you are rolling dice, nothing more. There's no skill in rolling dice. There's just luck. And luck is less fun than skill.



ANOTHER example, this time totally different:

There's 10,000 units of item for sale in your station. The item is not so common that everybody deals in it, but it's not at all "Rare" either. For instance, perhaps some sort of faction ammunition, in an out of the way region. The minimum buy order is 1. The item in question is especially volatile, and recent history has it spiking and crashing several times in the last couple of months, sometimes suddenly. Currently, it is selling for 40% more than the 5 day average. However, you can see that this has happened before, and that it was a real shift in the past. Some other station in another region is buying the stuff for 60% more than the 5 day average.

Is that a scam? Again, you have no idea. It is quite possible for a margin scammer to make money off of a situation like this, even though the minimum buy order is 1. Yet it is also quite possible this is a legit trade. I make trades like this often, and they turn out to be legit.

Again, you're rolling the dice here, because no amount of knowledge or skill will tell you for sure if that's a scam or not.


Your simplistic set of rules:
Quote:
a margin scam = super high price. /w the min volume set to the quantity of the order.

would not save you from either of these potential scams, if they were in fact scams.


But you can identify if these are scams when you understand why the price is varying.... In these cases, you need more metagaming knowledge than you get from the Market history window. Price spikes are caused by shortages of materials, changes in demand, market manipulation, and more... If you don't understand why the price varies on volatile item, then maybe you should stick to buying and selling stuff you do understand. That's my point... You want to buy/sell volatile goods without understanding their volatility. You want to turn making a profit off of the market into a very simple buy-goods low, sell goods higher system. I personally enjoy the nuances and complexities of the EvE market!


Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2013-01-14 00:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

But you can identify if these are scams when you understand why the price is varying.... In these cases, you need more metagaming knowledge than you get from the Market history window. Price spikes are caused by shortages of materials, changes in demand, market manipulation, and more... If you don't understand why the price varies on volatile item, then maybe you should stick to buying and selling stuff you do understand.


Yes, if you had such perfect knowledge, you could identify it as a scam or not. But we aren't superhuman, so we don't.

Meta-knowledge is key to being a good trader, but it doesn't work the way you are implying. Meta knowledge usually allows you to predict a future change in price, NOT the other way around (explaining a change in price that happened unexpectedly). Why? Because you can predict a change with just one solid piece of intel. For instance, if you know that Hulkaggedon is about to happen, you know that there may be a measurable drop in mineral availability soon. This allows you to predict a rise in prices for lots of things in high sec. But you only needed to know that one thing, not every single thing about the market.

However, to explain an unexpected price change that happened in the past is vastly more difficult. The only way you can be sure it is a scam is if you are fully knowledgeable about every single possible thing that might explain that price change, and know for sure that NONE of them could have caused it. That never ever happens, unless you are a crazy business tycoon and have a complete monopoly on some commodity.

Quote:
That's my point... You want to buy/sell volatile goods without understanding their volatility. You want to turn making a profit off of the market into a very simple buy-goods low, sell goods higher system. I personally enjoy the nuances and complexities of the EvE market!

The change I suggested would do no such thing. Meta-knowledge and market manipulations and intimidating your business competitors with mercenary corps, and all that crazy crap would still be part of the trading game, and it would sitll be infinitely complex and creative and nuanced.

Suggesting that any of this would go away just by requiring people to cover their largest buy order is silly. It's a big fluffy strawman with a flannel shirt.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2013-01-14 06:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Liang Nuren wrote:
I can't help but feel that you guys have never done any margin trading scams. There's actually costs associated with it - and people don't always fall for your scam. You got greedy and fell for a scam that preyed upon your greed... wheeeeee.

-Liang

Speaking of which, prior to ever hearing of the margin trading scam I reverse engineered it by staring at my screen long enough and learned a few potent indicators in the process.

Was the item linked in local? Yes, first thing that triggered both the initial interest and suspicion.

Are you dealing in an item rarely used? In my case a Talocan Stasis Inverter.

Is there some available for purchase on the market with a price lower than the buy order? Yes.

Possibly the easiest to spot indicator, is the buyer only interested in large quantities of expensive items?

In this case the order was for 100 units with a minimum quantity of 100 units. Asking for a minimum quantity of 500000 units of tritanium on a region wide order makes sense because it cuts down the legwork required to pick it all up and you're not going out of your way to pick up 1 tritanium. If that was a margin trading scam it would be a very poor one as well, as the tritanium is very easily sold to another buyer but requiring 100 units of Talocan Stasis Inverters on a region wide order where the buy price is 40 million looks very suspicious and leads to follow up question.

With Talocan Stasis Inverters being so uncommon why would the buyer not accept whatever I had and insist instead on me filling the full order?

The answer is because the money he has to put up front to place to order would be enough to buy several units and he doesn't want your items just your money from buying the rarely used item from his alt in the first place. I may be slightly off on how the money is removed from the margin trader's wallet but it makes no difference, my reasoning on the the desired outcome still leads me to the correct side of the scam from my perspective.

This was the process my mind went through seeing something too good to be true and using the knowledge I had from my own market alt, though since I hadn't ever used it to scam in this way the scam was not immediately obvious to me (took about 5 mins), which leads me to the fact that my market alt has not ever been used to scam and the margin trading skill greatly amplifies my ability to make money with it. The legitimate uses of margin trading justify it's continued existence regardless of the fact some people will get greedy and bite instantly when presented with the "opportunity" to make XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ISK instantly and for no effort.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#77 - 2013-01-14 14:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
You didn't answer my question, for either of the two examples. I didn't ask you "Are these risky trades?" I asked you whether they were scams or not.

It's a critical difference, because a trade simply being "risky" for normal reasons is not necessarily a reason to avoid it. Risky trades are valid and logical trades to pursue sometimes and they should form a portion of any balanced investment portfolio. You shouldn't rely entirely on them, but to avoid all risk entirely is to avoid all profit.

Scams, on the other hand, should never be pursued, because you'll always lose, if you know it's a scam.


So again, I ask you, "How can you determine whether either of those two situations is or is not a scam?" Feel free to assume that you have perfect knowledge of both situations: everything that would potentially be available to you as a trader in the game considering the trade. if you require some sort of data that I haven't provided to answer the question, just ask, and I'll give you the numbers.
I did answer, but do think it's a loaded scenario.

As such, I said that the first example was already a risky trade. This requires far more information be gathered, before you can make a judgement on what the average price is. This may involve meta gaming, as already suggested, but it requires far more time to gather.
But you can detect what would be bad investments. Because that's what this scam boils down to, a bad investment. If after looking I noticed a buy order for a set amount, for a higher price. Then scam would be my conclusion, so yes in this instance.

Risky investments should never be pursued, unless you have gathered all the relevant information. To do so without is folly, whether a scam or not.
Are you suggesting CCP should change this skill, based on rare items and trades that could be bad investments?

You'll have to clarify your second example, I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. But I did say that too high a price, is too high a price. This makes it a bad investment, but to know this requires you to gather the information first.
This doesn't mean simply relying upon the price of a buy order, to tell me the average price of that item.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

MortisLegati
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-01-14 14:46:22 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:

Want this to be fixed? Players should be capable of running up debt.


Margin trading is a relatively expensive skill with a bit of skills behind it. Throwaway alts for this purpose would be difficult to make, but that would still count as 'printing ISK' if the ISK was created in order to fill the debt. If the player who got their items 'stolen' by margin scams got ISK back when they player paid off the debt it would be workable.
Mike Milkem
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-21 22:41:59 UTC
My reply to a CCP customer service rep, regarding the use of "escrow" and EvE's broker fees.

I understand your explanation but would question what is the use of the escrow then, if the sale can be invalidated for not having the full amount for the purchase? In other words, I should at least have the option to recieve the escrow amount held, not have the sale invalidated, because having an escrow at all is uselss if it just goes back to the posted purchaser. This is not what an escrow is used for in contract law. The escrow amount held in contract law is provided by the first party to protect the second party and is a good faith bond held by a third party (broker). The broker does not just invalidate a transaction and return the escrow to the first party without the second party's consent. If they did (as you say Eve does) what is the point of calling it an escrow?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow
A country's law may vary but the word conveys legal standards.

I would also like to add that I am not asking you to interfere with the game, I am saying this portion of the game is poorly designed and that EVE itself has profited (yes a mere 32M) by taking a broker fee for a buy order that the game itself posted, held escrow for and invalidated. Basically a tax for nothing.
I had a profit selling the items in local, so it's not a loss for me but the point. CCP should have either kept the escrow and refunded my "tax" or have given me the otion to sell at the escrow price.

Weasel Juice
Mayhem and Destruction
#80 - 2013-02-22 14:57:31 UTC
Mike Milkem wrote:
My reply to a CCP customer service rep, regarding the use of "escrow" and EvE's broker fees.

I understand your explanation but would question what is the use of the escrow then, if the sale can be invalidated for not having the full amount for the purchase? In other words, I should at least have the option to recieve the escrow amount held, not have the sale invalidated, because having an escrow at all is uselss if it just goes back to the posted purchaser. This is not what an escrow is used for in contract law. The escrow amount held in contract law is provided by the first party to protect the second party and is a good faith bond held by a third party (broker). The broker does not just invalidate a transaction and return the escrow to the first party without the second party's consent. If they did (as you say Eve does) what is the point of calling it an escrow?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escrow
A country's law may vary but the word conveys legal standards.

I would also like to add that I am not asking you to interfere with the game, I am saying this portion of the game is poorly designed and that EVE itself has profited (yes a mere 32M) by taking a broker fee for a buy order that the game itself posted, held escrow for and invalidated. Basically a tax for nothing.
I had a profit selling the items in local, so it's not a loss for me but the point. CCP should have either kept the escrow and refunded my "tax" or have given me the otion to sell at the escrow price.



CCP does not gain profits from taxes. They are effectively providing an isk sink to balance inflation by destroying isk.