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Margin trading skill is a scam but no retribution.

Author
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#21 - 2013-01-09 16:47:01 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Felsusguy wrote:
The only time people sell to buy orders, realistically, is when it is a general commodity. No one pays attention to buy orders for the most part. Either way, no one would (or should) spend more ISK on something than it is sold for normally, and thus if the buy failed they could recoup most of their investment by selling it normally.

Margin Trading, however, is one of the most useless skills out there. The only purpose it serves is to make an order before you can pay for it, which fails anyway if you don't get enough ISK to buy it. By the time you get enough ISK, you could have just made the order then. Why would anyone need to make an order before they could pay for it if it doesn't serve a purpose if they can't pay for it anyway?


This has been explained, ad naseum, all over the forums.

The problem isn't the skill. The problem is the human hubris that drives people to make poor decisions with lots of money.



WHO CARES IF IT IS OVERPRICED!?!?!?. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 450,000,000 IN INSTANT PROFIT

yes

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-01-10 19:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Quote:
Margin trading is working exactly how CCP intends it to. We know this because they haven't changed it.

I had a GM explicitly tell me to post about the scam once a good while ago, when I fell for it after playing for a week or so and submitted a report thinking that it was a coding bug (for the buy order not to go through).

He made it pretty clear that he thought it was an abnormal scam and that it should not be endorsed like other scams, due to its illogicalness and difficulty to detect.

Although he didn't explicitly comment on the current thoughts of the devs, asking me to post about it to change their minds and the way he asked it made it seem pretty likely that they are either ambivalent and haven't thought about it much either way (thus publicity might sway them), or there are one or two devs that agree, or something like that. Certainly didn't act like it was a lost cause.

That is just a GM though, for whatever it is worth.



Quote:
This has been explained, ad naseum, all over the forums.

The problem isn't the skill. The problem is the human hubris that drives people to make poor decisions with lots of money.

The problem is how it is implemented. There is at least one painfully simple fix, that would squash the scam (or at least make it much more difficult), and yet not cause any harm or inconvenience to people who use margin trading for its intended purposes:

All you have to do is require a player to have at least enough isk in their wallet to cover the entire cost of their ONE largest buy order. If and when their isk falls below that amount, that largest buy order is auto-canceled, and their wallet is compared to the next largest order. If it can't cover that, then that one is also auto-canceled, etc.

This stops the scam, because any one given buy order is guaranteed to go through as long as it is still actually visible on the market. The only way the scam would continue to work would be if the scammer sat there and watched until somebody bought the goods, then manually removed the bait. Which almost nobody would do (usually it is a passive thing with bait set out for days at a time)

Yet at the same time, normal margin traders are unaffected. If you are margin trading legitimately, you should ALREADY have enough money in your wallet to cover your largest buy order. If not, then why do you have that order posted? It's just going to get canceled anyway when somebody tries to activate it. So there would be no point. Thus, this would just be hard-coding something that all non-scamming margin traders should already do on their own.

This solution also does not provide any extra intel to competitors or anything like that that a legit trader might object to.
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#23 - 2013-01-10 19:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Grison
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
Margin trading is working exactly how CCP intends it to. We know this because they haven't changed it.

I had a GM explicitly tell me to post about the scam once a good while ago, when I fell for it after playing for a week or so and submitted a report thinking that it was a coding bug (for the buy order not to go through).

He made it pretty clear that he thought it was an abnormal scam and that it should not be endorsed like other scams, due to its illogicalness and difficulty to detect.

Although he didn't explicitly comment on the current thoughts of the devs, asking me to post about it to change their minds and the way he asked it made it seem pretty likely that they are either ambivalent and haven't thought about it much either way (thus publicity might sway them), or there are one or two devs that agree, or something like that. Certainly didn't act like it was a lost cause.

That is just a GM though, for whatever it is worth.



Quote:
This has been explained, ad naseum, all over the forums.

The problem isn't the skill. The problem is the human hubris that drives people to make poor decisions with lots of money.

The problem is how it is implemented. There is at least one painfully simple fix, that would squash the scam (or at least make it much more difficult), and yet not cause any harm or inconvenience to people who use margin trading for its intended purposes:

All you have to do is require a player to have at least enough isk in their wallet to cover the entire cost of their ONE largest buy order. If and when their isk falls below that amount, that largest buy order is auto-canceled, and their wallet is compared to the next largest order. If it can't cover that, then that one is also auto-canceled, etc.

This stops the scam, because any one given buy order is guaranteed to go through as long as it is still actually visible on the market. The only way the scam would continue to work would be if the scammer sat there and watched until somebody bought the goods, then manually removed the bait. Which almost nobody would do (usually it is a passive thing with bait set out for days at a time)

Yet at the same time, normal margin traders are unaffected. If you are margin trading legitimately, you should ALREADY have enough money in your wallet to cover your largest buy order. If not, then why do you have that order posted? It's just going to get canceled anyway when somebody tries to activate it. So there would be no point. Thus, this would just be hard-coding something that all non-scamming margin traders should already do on their own.

This solution also does not provide any extra intel to competitors or anything like that that a legit trader might object to.



""Which almost nobody would do""

Let me stop you right there...

Also. I use margin trading legitimately and I often don't have money for the largest order... yet anyways. Many times I pull back larger orders orders ( by moving them down the buy/sell list ) while I am waiting for sell orders to come through and bring the liquid funding back up. This is more cost effective than having to remove and replace large orders and thus incurring taxes and fees.

yes

Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#24 - 2013-01-11 00:04:35 UTC
Margin trading is fine as it is.
It helps legit traders manage a large amount of items without needing absurd amounts of isk to cover ALL buy orders, which are never going to go through before someone outbids you anyway.
It also helps scammers liberate ISK from greedy people who dont deserver to have that ISK in the first place.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2013-01-11 01:04:14 UTC
The one fact that seems to get overlooked in these threads, by those wanting change. Is that in order for this scam to work, they must first BUY said item from the market. If people took their time and checked prices of items BEFORE they bought them, this scam would be easily avoided.

But hey why bother checking, when we can run to the forums and blame a skill for you bad buying choices?

I have a pro tip for you people, someone in Jita is giving away free ISK. You send them ISK, they send you double back. No really, I'm sure it's not too good to be true.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#26 - 2013-01-11 02:25:05 UTC
This is a problem though not in the way the Op says.
The problem is the lack of consequences for the scams, since they are always station alts, so never undock, so you can't ever exact any kind of payback on them.
How to solve this, I don't know, but it does go against Eves theory of actions have consequences, since these market scams (& some of the other scams) don't have consequences.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#27 - 2013-01-11 11:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This is a problem though not in the way the Op says.
The problem is the lack of consequences for the scams, since they are always station alts, so never undock, so you can't ever exact any kind of payback on them.
How to solve this, I don't know, but it does go against Eves theory of actions have consequences, since these market scams (& some of the other scams) don't have consequences.
Just explain to me, how this scam is any different than the you send me ISK I'll double it one? They fit the same criteria, so how do you exact revenge on them?

You see both are so easily avoidable, but this requires you to think and not get swayed by thoughts of making ISK quick. At least you can look at data, to show you when something is over priced.

Let's face it, people have always created alts for the reason of scamming someone. Infiltrate a corp, get roles, rip said corp off with it's ISK and items. Post about it on the forum and never use that alt again.
Scamming is and always will be, a part of the game. While there are way to avoid scams, I see no issue with them. People should stop whining about scams and simply learn from their mistakes.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Donnero
Arliuhtan
#28 - 2013-01-11 12:52:46 UTC
Easy solution.

Dont complete the market order if not enough money is present.

the idea of Margin Trading isnt to be used in scams, its more like a credit to make bigger buissness possible. Maybe if you use the abilitie of margin trading you should pay a loan as well. First to be an additionalmoney sink on the one hand and to be not a free credit for persons with the skill.
Epsilon Bathana
EPS Kings
#29 - 2013-01-11 13:56:47 UTC
Alex Grison wrote:


....

When a margin order fails to go through there is no "damaged" party. The money on escrow goes back to the person who placed the order. And the person with the items keeps the items. technically the only person with "damages" is the person who placed the margin order. Those damages being the market fees they paid to put up the order.

Margin trading in eve does not work like margin trading in real life. The trader is not borrowing any money. and thus has no debt to default on. Because of this, there is no reason for a margin call as you described.

All investments in eve are long positions. You cannot sell short.


By placing a buy order one enters into an agreement of buying an X amount of units for an Y amount of ISK of an at that time unknown seller.

When the margin order fails to go through the buyer hasn't honored this part of the agreement and which in case of MT scams is intentionally. The other party of the agreement, the seller , finds the agreement broken and suffers loss, namely he didn't get the ISK he is entitled to and therefore is the "damaged party". The height of his damages, being wasted time, the full amount of ISK or something else/in between, is less relevant. The buyer doesn't have damages in the sense that they were caused by actions of others. His loss happened the moment he made the order.

ESCROW is not just a deposit for covering the market fees. Those can be calculated and processed at creation of the buy order. It should be primary a security for the seller. That's why I'm saying that the ESCROW mechanism is broken in EVE if the seller is not the beneficiary of the money in case of a fallen through agreement. If however it is considered correct, than ESCROW is a unnecessary feature, because the behaviour won't be different to not having ESCROW (or in case of post deal calculated fees an ESCROW of 0.25 - 2% depending on Accounting and Broker Relation skills)

By the way I'm not talking about an interim recalculation of the margin and the settlement of that, but about the closure of the deal. So your reference to margin call is not correct.
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#30 - 2013-01-11 14:06:50 UTC
Epsilon Bathana wrote:

When the margin order fails to go through the buyer hasn't honored this part of the agreement and which in case of MT scams is intentionally. The other party of the agreement, the seller , finds the agreement broken and suffers loss, namely he didn't get the ISK he is entitled to and therefore is the "damaged party". The height of his damages, being wasted time, the full amount of ISK or something else/in between, is less relevant. The buyer doesn't have damages in the sense that they were caused by actions of others. His loss happened the moment he made the order.


I am forced to disagree with you here. There is no damage because of the failed market order. Had the "damaged party" in your scenario not significantly overpaid for the items in question, he could easily sell them to another interested party on the market at a reasonable profit.

Any damages that are incurred, real or imagined, fall squarely on the shoulders of the person who failed to do some basic research to determine if the items they were dealing with are really worth as much as they're paying for it. This simple fact is what makes the scam work - people investing money in something they don't understand and don't take the time to research in the hopes of a quick profit.

And why would you think they're "entitled" to that ISK? They made an investment in a commodity in an attempt to resell it at a profit. Not all investments pay off, and only a fool invests in something without knowing as much as they can about what it's really worth.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Epsilon Bathana
EPS Kings
#31 - 2013-01-11 17:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Epsilon Bathana
How the seller came to the goods is irrelevant. He could have manufactured the items, he could have stolen the items, he could have bought the items (for a normal or inflated price). It is irrelevant.
The buyer started an agreement and he broke it when somebody hold him to it!! And because the ESCROW is returned to the buyer, he does so without consequences. He remains unknown and doesn't have to pay (market fees are irrelevant in this context because they are paid one way or another)

Consider the following scenarios:

  1. Seller places an order at the market for an item at a particular price. Somebody wants to buy it and clicks buy. The seller reconsiders and says "nah, I don't feel like selling it for that price or to you". He can't.
  2. A person creates a contract to have something transported from A to B within time frame. Somebody accepts the contract, but doesn't deliver the package. He pays a price in the form of not having the collateral returned to him.
  3. The argument that it compensates the creator of the contract for his losses is not valid since very often the collateral exceeds the value of the transported goods and also are used as a source of income by tricking transporters to go past a gank camp.
  4. Agent offers a mission. You accept the agreement, but fail or abort it. Result: you pay the price in the form of a standing loss.


Now playing devil's advocate:
If think that ESCROW should not be a security deposit, then you agree it can be removed as a whole, right?
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#32 - 2013-01-11 17:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Quote:

When a margin order fails to go through there is no "damaged" party. The money on escrow goes back to the person who placed the order. And the person with the items keeps the items. technically the only person with "damages" is the person who placed the margin order. Those damages being the market fees they paid to put up the order.

Margin trading in eve does not work like margin trading in real life. The trader is not borrowing any money. and thus has no debt to default on. Because of this, there is no reason for a margin call as you described.

All investments in eve are long positions. You cannot sell short.


You apparently do not even understand how the scam works. Let me explain it to you:

I in this example am the scammer:

Step one - I acquire a ton of.. Scourge heavy missiles, say 3,567,284
Step two - I place these on the market for 10%-40% over priced tot he lowest sell Order.

Step 3 - I then log on another character (which has L5 Margin trading skills) and place a buy order for ... 2,756,892 Scourge heavy missiles. With a minimum buy amount of 2,756,892. At 10%-20% above the current highest "buyer" listed (Top Pane).

Step 4 - I transfer every bit of remaining cash in my wallet to my main character.

How it works:

The victim looks through the market and sees an order buying the 2mil + scourge missiles at a good price and notices he needs all of the quantity to sell at once in order to complete the order.... he goes.. wow thats a lot of missiles, must be an alliance or something....

Then he looks around some more and sees an order priced reasonably selling 3 mil + so he buys the exact 2,756,892 required by the buy order thinking hes about to make a decent profit.

Upon selling the missiles to the order It completes and deletes itself, only he realizes he has no extra money in his wallet and still owns the missiles.



Conclusion:

* The Victim just lost all the ISK he bought the missiles with and the scammer now has it.
* The Victim is now stuck with a massive quantity of Missiles which he can only sell back to the market for a 30%-50% loss on what he originally paid for them.

So not only does the victim loose the ISK he paid in, he also Looses any profits he might have made and is forced to only recover about Half of the actual Value of said missiles upon resale.

* The Scammer however is now rolling in the dough and laughing his rich little ass off.

The victim can never prove the Buyer, and the seller are the same person. Retribution is impossible. Especially if the scammer only scams a 5%-10% profit ratio, which is small and not a noticeable amount in the orders and within range of the markets averages in rise and fall.


How do I know all of this? Well, I am an Investor. and I play the market on a regular basis. This in fact does fit the definition of an exploit, as you are taking advantage of a player who can do nothing about it. Yes its his choice to accept the orders, however its also the scammers choice to set up the scam. Just as its the Scammers choice to lure concord to the WH before attacking carebears int he same system who "Chose to Mine there"..

Following this logic, it is indeed an exploit and against the terms of service and Eula. However:

CCP likes the fact that people can get scammed and ripped off and exploited, as long as such are not "Game Breaking" or interfere with their agendas. Just look at Goonswarm and everything they do.

Quote:
It is CCP's game, and even if by definition something is an exploit, it is not such until CCP clasifies it officially as such.
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#33 - 2013-01-11 18:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Grison
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Quote:

When a margin order fails to go through there is no "damaged" party. The money on escrow goes back to the person who placed the order. And the person with the items keeps the items. technically the only person with "damages" is the person who placed the margin order. Those damages being the market fees they paid to put up the order.

Margin trading in eve does not work like margin trading in real life. The trader is not borrowing any money. and thus has no debt to default on. Because of this, there is no reason for a margin call as you described.

All investments in eve are long positions. You cannot sell short.


You apparently do not even understand how the scam works. Let me explain it to you:

I in this example am the scammer:

Step one - I acquire a ton of.. Scourge heavy missiles, say 3,567,284
Step two - I place these on the market for 10%-40% over priced tot he lowest sell Order.

Step 3 - I then log on another character (which has L5 Margin trading skills) and place a buy order for ... 2,756,892 Scourge heavy missiles. With a minimum buy amount of 2,756,892. At 10%-20% above the current highest "buyer" listed (Top Pane).

Step 4 - I transfer every bit of remaining cash in my wallet to my main character.

How it works:

The victim looks through the market and sees an order buying the 2mil + scourge missiles at a good price and notices he needs all of the quantity to sell at once in order to complete the order.... he goes.. wow thats a lot of missiles, must be an alliance or something....

Then he looks around some more and sees an order priced reasonably selling 3 mil + so he buys the exact 2,756,892 required by the buy order thinking hes about to make a decent profit.

Upon selling the missiles to the order It completes and deletes itself, only he realizes he has no extra money in his wallet and still owns the missiles.



Conclusion:

* The Victim just lost all the ISK he bought the missiles with and the scammer now has it.
* The Victim is now stuck with a massive quantity of Missiles which he can only sell back to the market for a 30%-50% loss on what he originally paid for them.

So not only does the victim loose the ISK he paid in, he also Looses any profits he might have made and is forced to only recover about Half of the actual Value of said missiles upon resale.

* The Scammer however is now rolling in the dough and laughing his rich little ass off.

The victim can never prove the Buyer, and the seller are the same person. Retribution is impossible. Especially if the scammer only scams a 5%-10% profit ratio, which is small and not a noticeable amount in the orders and within range of the markets averages in rise and fall.


How do I know all of this? Well, I am an Investor. and I play the market on a regular basis. This in fact does fit the definition of an exploit, as you are taking advantage of a player who can do nothing about it. Yes its his choice to accept the orders, however its also the scammers choice to set up the scam. Just as its the Scammers choice to lure concord to the WH before attacking carebears int he same system who "Chose to Mine there"..

Following this logic, it is indeed an exploit and against the terms of service and Eula. However:

CCP likes the fact that people can get scammed and ripped off and exploited, as long as such are not "Game Breaking" or interfere with their agendas. Just look at Goonswarm and everything they do.

Quote:
It is CCP's game, and even if by definition something is an exploit, it is not such until CCP clasifies it officially as such.


I understand exactly how the scam works. and what I said still stands true.

when a margin order fails to go through. there is no damaged party.

the person gets the escrow money returned to them. and the person with the items keeps the items

at what price they acquired the items is 100% irrelevant to the broker. It is the responsibility of the buyer to make smart investments.

Also. CCP is free to enforce their EULA as they see fit. Just because someone is "rule-lawyering" does not mean that they have to honor a player's opinions.

However. the EULA and TOS is a legally defensible and binding contract. If you feel that CCP has violated this contract between you and them. You are free to seek legal recourse.

And you are right. CCP does like the fact that you can get ripped off and scammed. It is a part of the game. If you don't like it, then don't play.

Again. I trade *Intensively* and have never been margin scammed And never will. They are easy to identify and easier not to take part in.

If you got margin scammed it is your own fault. There are no excuses.

I will offer a reward of 100,000,000 isk to anyone who can "margin scam" me against my will.

yes

De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#34 - 2013-01-11 18:42:45 UTC
Epsilon Bathana wrote:
How the seller came to the goods is irrelevant.


Actually, it is entirely relevant. Had the seller not paid an over-inflated price for the goods, he could easily sell them for a profit to any one of a number of buyers. Remember, in order for this scam to actually work (i.e. the scammer to make any money), the seller has to actually buy the over-priced items the scammer put on the market in the first place. So the act of acquiring the items is absolutely relevant - without that crucial first step, the scam falls apart, and actually ends up costing the scammer money (in the form of brokers fees for the cancelled order), while the seller still has the items to sell to another buy order (or on the market in general).

The scam cannot work correctly UNLESS the seller purchases those items from the scammer in the first place. The fact that the items are over-priced (by a significant amount) should be the first clue that something is very wrong. The fact that someone else is willing to buy them at an even GREATER over-priced amount should be clue number 2. The odd quantities (really, who buys exactly 2,347,897 missiles in one lot?) is clue number 3. That's three things that should send warning flares, IF the seller chose to understand what he was doing, instead of being focused just the two numbers in those two orders.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#35 - 2013-01-11 19:42:26 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Epsilon Bathana wrote:
How the seller came to the goods is irrelevant.


Actually, it is entirely relevant. Had the seller not paid an over-inflated price for the goods, he could easily sell them for a profit to any one of a number of buyers. Remember, in order for this scam to actually work (i.e. the scammer to make any money), the seller has to actually buy the over-priced items the scammer put on the market in the first place. So the act of acquiring the items is absolutely relevant - without that crucial first step, the scam falls apart, and actually ends up costing the scammer money (in the form of brokers fees for the cancelled order), while the seller still has the items to sell to another buy order (or on the market in general).

The scam cannot work correctly UNLESS the seller purchases those items from the scammer in the first place. The fact that the items are over-priced (by a significant amount) should be the first clue that something is very wrong. The fact that someone else is willing to buy them at an even GREATER over-priced amount should be clue number 2. The odd quantities (really, who buys exactly 2,347,897 missiles in one lot?) is clue number 3. That's three things that should send warning flares, IF the seller chose to understand what he was doing, instead of being focused just the two numbers in those two orders.


How the seller came to the goods is completely irrelevant to a margin trade buy order....

The margin trade mechanic is very fair... You attempt to sell goods to a buy order... if funds are there, the transaction go through. If the funds are not there, the transaction fails... the seller keeps his goods, the buyer gets nothing (and loses broker fees).

There is NOTHING unfair about that exchange.... there is no real scam here.

The scam, when people look at the buy order and use that to "estimate" the value of an item. Since the buy order is NOT legit, the mark overestimates the value of an item and purchases goods well above their actual worth. Then the buy order fails, and they are left with goods they paid too much for.....

Really, these threads are about one thing:

Many Marketeers in the game are ignorant or too lazy to actually properly evaluate the value of an item they hope to "resell" for profit. As such, they appraise the value of an item off (in)conveniently placed buy orders and end up losing money. Then, rather than learn from their mistakes, they come to the forums and try to have these "false advertisements" (margin buy orders) removed, because they are still ignorant or too lazy to properly evaluate the value of an item.

I sympathize with losing money to a scam... but this is a very simple case of learn from your mistakes; Have yet to hear a good reason why margin trading should be removed!
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#36 - 2013-01-11 19:48:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


How the seller came to the goods is completely irrelevant to a margin trade buy order....


True, but it is relevant to the scam, since if the seller didn't over-pay for the goods in the first place, they would still be able to move them at a profit, just not as large a profit as they had anticipated.

Also, don't misunderstand, I think margin trading is fine as it is. The real problem is not the skill, or the mechanic, it's the people, as you pointed out.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#37 - 2013-01-11 20:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Grison
Everybody. my offer still stands. If you can ""margin scam"" me against my will. You will get 100,000,000 tasty little iskies.

in addition I will do a complete write-up and debrief about how you pulled it off. And the implications on market gameplay that it may have.


Ready Go.

yes

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#38 - 2013-01-11 20:50:05 UTC
I can't help but feel that you guys have never done any margin trading scams. There's actually costs associated with it - and people don't always fall for your scam. You got greedy and fell for a scam that preyed upon your greed... wheeeeee.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#39 - 2013-01-11 20:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
You apparently do not even understand how the scam works. Let me explain it to you:

I in this example am the scammer:

Step one - I acquire a ton of.. Scourge heavy missiles, say 3,567,284
Step two - I place these on the market for 10%-40% over priced tot he lowest sell Order.

Step 3 - I then log on another character (which has L5 Margin trading skills) and place a buy order for ... 2,756,892 Scourge heavy missiles. With a minimum buy amount of 2,756,892. At 10%-20% above the current highest "buyer" listed (Top Pane).

Step 4 - I transfer every bit of remaining cash in my wallet to my main character.

How it works:

The victim looks through the market and sees an order buying the 2mil + scourge missiles at a good price and notices he needs all of the quantity to sell at once in order to complete the order.... he goes.. wow thats a lot of missiles, must be an alliance or something....

Then he looks around some more and sees an order priced reasonably selling 3 mil + so he buys the exact 2,756,892 required by the buy order thinking hes about to make a decent profit.

Upon selling the missiles to the order It completes and deletes itself, only he realizes he has no extra money in his wallet and still owns the missiles.
You seem to be using misleading terms, to make it look as though the buyer isn't responsible in any way. Some of them are also assumptions, to do much the same.

When you see a buy order for something at a particular price, you shouldn't assume it's either an alliance or something, or that the price reflects the true value of the item.

Therefore to then claim that he sees a sell order that is reasonably priced, is based on false information and assumptions.

What was correct, was that he thought he was going to make a profit. But greed and him basing this on assumptions and bad information, meant he ended up with a bad investment. Prey tell, just who's fault is that? Did he not have access to all the past selling information in that region? Or in any other for that matter?

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Conclusion:

* The Victim just lost all the ISK he bought the missiles with and the scammer now has it.
* The Victim is now stuck with a massive quantity of Missiles which he can only sell back to the market for a 30%-50% loss on what he originally paid for them.

So not only does the victim loose the ISK he paid in, he also Looses any profits he might have made and is forced to only recover about Half of the actual Value of said missiles upon resale.

* The Scammer however is now rolling in the dough and laughing his rich little ass off.

The victim can never prove the Buyer, and the seller are the same person. Retribution is impossible. Especially if the scammer only scams a 5%-10% profit ratio, which is small and not a noticeable amount in the orders and within range of the markets averages in rise and fall.


How do I know all of this? Well, I am an Investor. and I play the market on a regular basis. This in fact does fit the definition of an exploit, as you are taking advantage of a player who can do nothing about it. Yes its his choice to accept the orders, however its also the scammers choice to set up the scam. Just as its the Scammers choice to lure concord to the WH before attacking carebears int he same system who "Chose to Mine there"..
You conclusions therefore are based on poor logic, due to you reliance upon the same assumptions and bad information. You use these things to back up your version of how it works and shine a better light upon the 'Victim'.

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Following this logic, it is indeed an exploit and against the terms of service and Eula. However:

CCP likes the fact that people can get scammed and ripped off and exploited, as long as such are not "Game Breaking" or interfere with their agendas. Just look at Goonswarm and everything they do.

Quote:
It is CCP's game, and even if by definition something is an exploit, it is not such until CCP clasifies it officially as such.
This again is based on poor logic and yet more assuptions. Even if you dislike the goons and many things they say, their point that this is not an explot, is in fact correct.

One thing in the EULA you seem to have skipped over, is this.
Quote:
11 NO WARRANTIES

    The Software, System, Game and all Game Content, and all other services and material provided in connection therewith, are provided "AS IS," with all faults, and without warranty of any kind. You assume all risk of use and all risk associated with accessing the System and playing the Game.


Also this is their game, and as such it's up to them to declare what is is and what isn't an exploit. No matter how much you cry exploit, you're not in a position to make that call.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#40 - 2013-01-11 20:58:50 UTC
Isn't it such a shocker that he only called up the parts of the EULA/TOS that he thought would benefit his argument the most?

yes