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PVP Advice for a rookie
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DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-07 19:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: DroneKing Aideron
I am looking to get into pvp. However I want to focus solely on gal ships. What ships do you recommend for learning pvp? I do not feel like waiting forever to train up to a tier II stealth bomber before I can really pvp.

What are some smaller ships for pvping? Can I pvp in a destroyer? Should I go for crusiers, should I stay in a frig for cost.

I want to get a decent amount of bang for my buck without being owned every time I try to pvp?

Also is battleclinic the only place for ship builds besides the forums? The pvp builds there are really kinda lacking. Very few have good feedback...a few only have four or five thumbs up.

I appreciate the help.

DroneKing
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-01-07 19:51:23 UTC
Frigs until you know what you're doing. Personally, I found the tristan to be a beast when fighting against it.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-07 20:05:12 UTC
Learn in T1 frigs or destroyers. The new tier changes have made it so that things you learn at the small ship classes still apply at the larger ones. You should do one of the following:

1. Join RVB
2. Join FW and fight in novice/small plexs
3. Become a lowsec pirate and fight in FW novice/small plexs

If you choose #2 or #3, you should join a good FW/pirate player corp as soon as you can.

.
DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-01-07 20:23:08 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Learn in T1 frigs or destroyers. The new tier changes have made it so that things you learn at the small ship classes still apply at the larger ones. You should do one of the following:

1. Join RVB
2. Join FW and fight in novice/small plexs
3. Become a lowsec pirate and fight in FW novice/small plexs

If you choose #2 or #3, you should join a good FW/pirate player corp as soon as you can.


So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.

DroneKing
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#5 - 2013-01-07 20:37:02 UTC
DroneKing Aideron wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Learn in T1 frigs or destroyers. The new tier changes have made it so that things you learn at the small ship classes still apply at the larger ones. You should do one of the following:

1. Join RVB
2. Join FW and fight in novice/small plexs
3. Become a lowsec pirate and fight in FW novice/small plexs

If you choose #2 or #3, you should join a good FW/pirate player corp as soon as you can.


So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.


Go do the agony pvp clasess.. they worth it.. and if you do it wrong.. a destroyer will own your frig, well even if you do it partly right. The new destroyers are beasts
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-01-07 20:45:15 UTC
DroneKing Aideron wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Learn in T1 frigs or destroyers. The new tier changes have made it so that things you learn at the small ship classes still apply at the larger ones. You should do one of the following:

1. Join RVB
2. Join FW and fight in novice/small plexs
3. Become a lowsec pirate and fight in FW novice/small plexs

If you choose #2 or #3, you should join a good FW/pirate player corp as soon as you can.


So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.


At first your T1 frig will get bent over till you get closer to max skills (Vs on guns, ship, fittings, tank mods etc) and learn how to use your ship

My Maulus has been very effective but it took me a good 2-3 losses and some tweaks with my fit to find how I liked to fly it, and what not to engage or how to engage

I still dont have any wins over a destroyer 1v1 yet in 4 fights with them 1v1, but I was able to live and escape on 3 of them and felt I gave a good "show" each time.

I have killed some destroyers in T1 frigs in 2v2
Maulus and Exe vrs Coercer and Rifter
http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15676237
http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15676271

The related kills on that are messed up, since I was plexing in the system for awhile, it seems it mashed all the engagements together in one big lump :-(

I fly in FW and have a great time getting into fights in the novice / small plexs, You earn good isk, more than enough to pay for a few losses per day (t1 frigs and dessy losses) and get a lot of nice 1v1 or 2v2 fights

1v1 with a Navy Comet
http://fatalwarfare.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15779319


Look into joining a FW corp that has a decent pilot base, willing to teach new pilots, and does fleet or plex OPs during your playtimes

Fatal is recruiting on that note, looking for players active in EU TZ. We have a daily op at 2000 EVE time with around 15-20 pilots, and lots of other fleets / random roams during the entire day


See you on the field
Tsobai
DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-01-07 21:15:48 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
DroneKing Aideron wrote:
Andre Vauban wrote:
Learn in T1 frigs or destroyers. The new tier changes have made it so that things you learn at the small ship classes still apply at the larger ones. You should do one of the following:

1. Join RVB
2. Join FW and fight in novice/small plexs
3. Become a lowsec pirate and fight in FW novice/small plexs

If you choose #2 or #3, you should join a good FW/pirate player corp as soon as you can.


So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.


Go do the agony pvp clasess.. they worth it.. and if you do it wrong.. a destroyer will own your frig, well even if you do it partly right. The new destroyers are beasts


+1 I had never heard of agony classes. Even the basic videos are giving me a better understanding of pvp.

Pirate

DroneKing
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#8 - 2013-01-07 21:25:18 UTC
The agony classes are excellent totally recomend them.

For gallente pvp the incursus is great it can be a total brawler, ranged kitey and a silly tanker depending on fit etc. Very versiltile ship. excelletn for learning pvp in IMO.

The tristan is also another good pvp frigate but seeing as it is a drone ship requires more skills and player experience to wield effectively.

Maulus is a pain in the behind if you are on the recieving end of it! It is relatively easy to skill up for and fly effectively. More of a small gang ship than solo though.

TBH the most important thing is to find a good corp that will advise and guide you without hassiling you about losses and silly mistake, cos you will lose stuff and make silly mistakes....we all do...some times more than we should (bloody mead again!)

Another thing to consider is how are you going to fund yourself. FW is a good place to fight as you can easily make enough isk to provide ships to fly for cheap frigate pvp without really trying.

Main thing is to get out there and fight. Get used to losing ships and don't get attached to them. Have fun and fly dangerous as flying safe is for carebears!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-01-07 21:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.


They're both being recommended to you because they're cheap. In general, a t1 destroyer will beat a t1 frigate in a fight, but is more expensive and slower (= easier to catch and not as good at catching other). I recommend t1 or cheap meta fittings - t2 will vastly inflate the cost of the ship.

Find a ship you like, buy 10 of the ship and the fit, then take it out and keep losing them one after the other. Take risks. Fight things you don't think you can kill and try your best anyway so you can figure out what does what and how to fly properly.

I would recommend joining a corp, as well; there is no better way to learn than to do so with other people.

Regarding ships, Gallente has two main ship lines... blasterboats (Run at things, get in their face and melt it off with overwhelming DPS) and drone ships (most versatile of the weapon systems). You'll either want to fly incursus and catalyst (blaster) or tristan and algos (drone). Since the incursus and catalyst use drones less than the tristan and aregos use hybrid weapons, I'd recommend focusing on the gunboats (and thus, your gunnery skills) before the droneboats, but it's your call.
DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-01-07 21:45:44 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
So frigs and destroyers are on equal footing. Should I get into a fight with a destroyer in a Tristan I will not be bent over and barrel and owned? I am interested in hearing what ships I should pvp in and why.


They're both being recommended to you because they're cheap. In general, a t1 destroyer will beat a t1 frigate in a fight, but is more expensive and slower (= easier to catch and not as good at catching other). I recommend t1 or cheap meta fittings - t2 will vastly inflate the cost of the ship.

Find a ship you like, buy 10 of the ship and the fit, then take it out and keep losing them one after the other. Take risks. Fight things you don't think you can kill and try your best anyway so you can figure out what does what and how to fly properly.

I would recommend joining a corp, as well; there is no better way to learn than to do so with other people.

Regarding ships, Gallente has two main ship lines... blasterboats (Run at things, get in their face and melt it off with overwhelming DPS) and drone ships (most versatile of the weapon systems). You'll either want to fly incursus and catalyst (blaster) or tristan and algos (drone). Since the incursus and catalyst use drones less than the tristan and aregos use hybrid weapons, I'd recommend focusing on the gunboats (and thus, your gunnery skills) before the droneboats, but it's your call.


Good solid advice. I appreciate that my friend.

DroneKing
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#11 - 2013-01-07 23:09:59 UTC
also some good videos out there with explanations. Kil2 and kovorix have am old podcast series and some vids that I found quite useful. just google kil2 or bring back solo
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-01-07 23:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Kahega Amielden wrote:
They're both being recommended to you because they're cheap. In general, a t1 destroyer will beat a t1 frigate in a fight, but is more expensive and slower (= easier to catch and not as good at catching other). I recommend t1 or cheap meta fittings - t2 will vastly inflate the cost of the ship.

I really dislike this piece of advice (which is given to newish players all the time).

there are few fights that an inexperienced, low SP player can win even when going for a gimmicky fitting - telling him to sacrifice something along the lines of another 20-30% performance (and crippling many setups that rely on t2 guns) will only result in him losing just about every single fight.

What lessons are you going to learn from engaging in fights that are not even close?
there won't be any distinguishable cause that you can point towards and say "I will win if I do this different the next time" as you will probably lose no matter how badly or well you fly. The only lesson to be learned from this sort of behavior is "don't engage in pvp because you can't win anyways".

How is "at least the loss was cheap" any consolation when you never stood a chance of winning the fight to begin with? you are just throwing away ships at that point.

A decent frigate is 10-20m ISK, a decent destroyer 20-25m ISK (and a big part of that cost is ammo and nanite paste).

Now look at the LP payouts for novice and small plexes and tell me that this is unaffordable - capture one plex appropriate to your ship size before dying in glorious combat and your ship has paid for itself.

The only reason to think that T2 fittings are too expensive and not worth the performance gain is if you are absolutely in love with your killboard stats - in that case you should fit meta 0-2 and never stray aside from the blob.
You will whore on many killmails, your losses will be few and extraordinarily cheap and your isk efficiency will be in the 95% - 99% range.

Quote:
Regarding ships, Gallente has two main ship lines... blasterboats (Run at things, get in their face and melt it off with overwhelming DPS) and drone ships (most versatile of the weapon systems). You'll either want to fly incursus and catalyst (blaster) or tristan and algos (drone).

that advice is equally terrible from my pov: when you are lacking in SP you want to stay away from brawling boats completely - in a straight up fight you will only get demolished.
Ships that heavily rely on EWAR (such as the Maulus which was mentioned above, the Griffin, a tracking disrupting slasher, ...) require much less SP investment to be useful than straight up brawlers (where the whole fight is a dps/tank race).

.
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-01-07 23:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
Vera Algaert wrote:
How is "at least the loss was cheap" any consolation when you never stood a chance of winning the fight to begin with? you are just throwing away ships at that point.
Because the first few ships you lose, you are going to lose because you did things that were so amazingly embarrassingly dumb in retrospect that you would have lost the ship even if you were in a tricked out tech II monster with maxed out skills. And you'll still win fights in cheap ships; when your blaster boat lands on zero on something fitted for range, or your dual-web scramble range fit snares that guy with the blasters, the fact that your fittings are just meta 3 isnt going to save them.
It takes awhile before you find your groove and start having good, close fights that would be decided by good fittings.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#14 - 2013-01-08 02:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:

I really dislike this piece of advice (which is given to newish players all the time).

there are few fights that an inexperienced, low SP player can win even when going for a gimmicky fitting - telling him to sacrifice something along the lines of another 20-30% performance (and crippling many setups that rely on t2 guns) will only result in him losing just about every single fight.

What lessons are you going to learn from engaging in fights that are not even close?
there won't be any distinguishable cause that you can point towards and say "I will win if I do this different the next time" as you will probably lose no matter how badly or well you fly. The only lesson to be learned from this sort of behavior is "don't engage in pvp because you can't win anyways".

How is "at least the loss was cheap" any consolation when you never stood a chance of winning the fight to begin with? you are just throwing away ships at that point.

A decent frigate is 10-20m ISK, a decent destroyer 20-25m ISK (and a big part of that cost is ammo and nanite paste).

Now look at the LP payouts for novice and small plexes and tell me that this is unaffordable - capture one plex appropriate to your ship size before dying in glorious combat and your ship has paid for itself.

The only reason to think that T2 fittings are too expensive and not worth the performance gain is if you are absolutely in love with your killboard stats - in that case you should fit meta 0-2 and never stray aside from the blob.
You will ***** on many killmails, your losses will be few and extraordinarily cheap and your isk efficiency will be in the 95% - 99% range.


You're right, there are few fights that an inexperienced player can win. But that's not because of his SP or the guns on his ship, it's because he's inexperienced. You don't beat inexperience with ISK, you beat inexperience with practice.

Losing no matter how well you fly? That's absolutely false. There's a ton of things you can take on successfully with a t1-fit frigate or destroyer if you fly properly. A newbie will likely not fly a t1-fit frig/dessie well enough to get a ton of kills, but he's not going to fly a t2-fit frig/dessie any better and he will have a lot fewer of them to throw away.



Quote:
The only reason to think that T2 fittings are too expensive and not worth the performance gain is if you are absolutely in love with your killboard stats - in that case you should fit meta 0-2 and never stray aside from the blob.

You have got to be kidding me. I never said that t2 fittings weren't worth the performance gain, I said that they were not necessary for PVP and t1/meta is a perfectly viable alternative, particularly for learning when the most important factor in your victories/defeats will be your own mistakes and when you aren't likely to have a lot of money.

And who the hell seriously looks at ISK efficiency as a measure of anything when it's calculated the same whether you kill something with 1 ship or 1,000?


Quote:
that advice is equally terrible from my pov: when you are lacking in SP you want to stay away from brawling boats completely - in a straight up fight you will only get demolished.
Ships that heavily rely on EWAR (such as the Maulus which was mentioned above, the Griffin, a tracking disrupting slasher, ...) require much less SP investment to be useful than straight up brawlers (where the whole fight is a dps/tank race).


The assumption I was making was that the OP was thinking about solo. Of course ewar and logi is good for gangs...But brawling ships are perfectly fine for a newbie as well, and it's good to get experience in multiple shiptypes anyway. You don't want to spend your 3 months, gain some SP and money and realize you don't know how to do anything other than jam from 60k away.
galenwade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-08 05:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Galenwade
Gallente frigs you have so many options


Atron- Fast and hard hitting

Incursus - great tank , still hits hard

Maulus - annoying and very embarrassing to die to .

Tristan - Drones for everyone ....


Agony Class's are great, Self plug for RvB if you are with us for a while we will often pay for you to take their class's .

We also have a noobfleet, which isn't there so much as to teach but to help you pick your self up after that nasty Thrasher bends you over said barrel, and help you you prepare better for next time ... more lube.



Oh and not sure if it was answered, Ship fits . Fail heap has lots of fits .

http://failheap-challenge.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Ship-Setup-Hangar
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-01-08 05:55:55 UTC
galenwade wrote:
Oh and not sure if it was answered, Ship fits . Fail heap has lots of fits .
http://failheap-challenge.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Ship-Setup-Hangar

Too bad most of the fits out there are no longer valid. Really they need to just do a massive purge of outdated fits.
DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-01-08 15:39:02 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
How is "at least the loss was cheap" any consolation when you never stood a chance of winning the fight to begin with? you are just throwing away ships at that point.
Because the first few ships you lose, you are going to lose because you did things that were so amazingly embarrassingly dumb in retrospect that you would have lost the ship even if you were in a tricked out tech II monster with maxed out skills. And you'll still win fights in cheap ships; when your blaster boat lands on zero on something fitted for range, or your dual-web scramble range fit snares that guy with the blasters, the fact that your fittings are just meta 3 isnt going to save them.
It takes awhile before you find your groove and start having good, close fights that would be decided by good fittings.


This logic makes sense to me. Would tech 4's be a better option than using T2 crap until I get the hang of things? To my understanding they are pretty much similar with minor differences.

DroneKing
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#18 - 2013-01-08 15:48:23 UTC
DroneKing Aideron wrote:
This logic makes sense to me. Would tech 4's be a better option than using T2 crap until I get the hang of things? To my understanding they are pretty much similar with minor differences.


Depends on your budget. If you struggle with ISK, you can go with meta 3-4. Some meta 4 are more expensive than T2 (e.g. warp scramblers).

T2 fit frigate costs ~10mil.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-01-08 16:06:33 UTC
Quote:
This logic makes sense to me. Would tech 4's be a better option than using T2 crap until I get the hang of things? To my understanding they are pretty much similar with minor differences.


I think you mean meta 4. Modules have meta levels (0 is t1, 1-4 is named, 5 is t2, 6+ faction). There is no tech 4...There is tech 1, tech 2, and tech 3 (ie strategic cruisers).

But yes. Meta 1-4 modules will give you much better performance than flat t1 at about the same cost, depending on the item. Meta 4 will usually be very expensive (more expensive than t2), though not always, so if you're looking to be cheap you may have to go with meta 2-3.
DroneKing Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-08 16:17:21 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This logic makes sense to me. Would tech 4's be a better option than using T2 crap until I get the hang of things? To my understanding they are pretty much similar with minor differences.


I think you mean meta 4. Modules have meta levels (0 is t1, 1-4 is named, 5 is t2, 6+ faction). There is no tech 4...There is tech 1, tech 2, and tech 3 (ie strategic cruisers).

But yes. Meta 1-4 modules will give you much better performance than flat t1 at about the same cost, depending on the item. Meta 4 will usually be very expensive (more expensive than t2), though not always, so if you're looking to be cheap you may have to go with meta 2-3.


Yes, meta. I am sorry. So is the difference between Meta 1-6 really that different or are we talking minor. Obviously just taking for example mining gear I can mine 40 something ore...a meta 4 only does 46 I think...but a T2 is 60. Seems like a jump in efficiency from meta 4 to 5 based upon just those standards.

Keep in mind I know it's very stupid to uses miners as the bases for everything as somethings will have much different stats but I was just giving a baseline.

DroneKing
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