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Overheating tackle: A disparity in base values, bonuses and combat effectiveness.
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Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#121 - 2013-01-13 22:31:15 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
This is one of those polarised arguments where the arguments end up going round in circles.

My feeling is that base T2 point range is fine. Frig combat feels well balanced around short point range and a lot of rebalancing mainly in regards to Hybrids in particular the Null change make Hybrids more viable throughout the 24km range. A tackle ship as outline by the OP's example being able to hold point long enough for support while still risking being driven off/destroyed sounds balanced.

That said ship speeds and EHP in the Rebalanced classes are up and this affects fight duration/ how long point can be held for.

I feel Tech one point range could be increased by 2km at least, this closes the gap too T2 especially when overheated.

The comments about needing to maintain Disrupter overheat longer than scram are valid and I would also support reducing the heat damage. This should enable overheating for longer while still not allowing long range disruption Indefinitely.

It is possible that the overheat range modifier could be changed to 25%, again this increases point range for a limited period of time out to 30km for T2.

I think these are relatively practical changes without large scale changes in ships and mods.

T1 range with 22km base and 25% overheat = 27.5km

T2 range with 25% overheat = 30km


If you fly a range-tankign ship who fights in falloff, you kno how long it takes to kill targets. Overheating is just not an option.

And one of your statements sums it up and shows the system to be flawed: Making hybrids viable up to 24km is stupid. They are the highest DPS weapon in the game, they are supposed to be low range. If they have range and tracking (which btw also got buffed) it simply makes them the best weapons in the game.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2013-01-13 22:57:29 UTC
You complaints seem to be specifically in regards to Shield Kiting Blaster ships with Neutrons and dual tracking enhancers is this not a case of one shield kiter being better within a certain range than another. The other posters complaints seem to be in regards to how your changes would affect armour brawlers which rarely have gun size and DPS projection advantages to the extent you are suggesting.

You should have enough time to gain an advantage, at some point yes you will also have to leave or commit to the fight.

If you are allowed to kite and maintain point indefinitely then something like this is almost a guaranteed win in your fitting example and may have held that cane.

[Stabber, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

That said I find the stabber quite poor and was surprised it’s fall off bonus was only 7.5%.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#123 - 2013-01-13 23:18:33 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
You complaints seem to be specifically in regards to Shield Kiting Blaster ships with Neutrons and dual tracking enhancers is this not a case of one shield kiter being better within a certain range than another. The other posters complaints seem to be in regards to how your changes would affect armour brawlers which rarely have gun size and DPS projection advantages to the extent you are suggesting.

You should have enough time to gain an advantage, at some point yes you will also have to leave or commit to the fight.

If you are allowed to kite and maintain point indefinitely then something like this is almost a guaranteed win in your fitting example and may have held that cane.

[Stabber, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Projectile Burst Aerator I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

That said I find the stabber quite poor and was surprised it’s fall off bonus was only 7.5%.


You can't introduce tracking disruptors into the equation. A tracking disruptor on a plated brawler outright removes a kiter from the battle, so for the point of these comparisons they are a bad idea to add in. If anything it proves that brawlers have an advantage, since once range is removed from the equation neither ship will do any damage until they are very close, then the brawler wins... again...

Also remember tiericide is adding a lot of mid slots to ships, meaning TE's are more in play than ever on a LOT of ships.

And if you run an MWD/Scram setup on a brawler (not uncommon) you have mids spare for tracking computers, so even plated you can reach effective ranges of 22k+ with no TE's in the lows.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#124 - 2013-01-14 12:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
,,,,,,,,,,,,
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#125 - 2013-01-14 12:53:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:

They're running out of things to whine about, so their new whine apparently is that TE autocannons aren't owning non-TE autocannons under 24km.....when you have a massive EHP disadvantage. Blasters get good and suddenly they want to push tackle range out to where they know they'll never get scrammed by a slower ship.


I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. I have access to links literally any time I want, and have both a Tengu and Loki stationed in Amamake for just that purpose. I even have an extra computer to run them on so it doesn't interfere with my main PVP account.

But instead I'm pushing for the links to not play such a strong role in tackle and active tanking. It's not to my advantage, really, so... maybe you're just being a ******* idiot with that accusation? :)

-Liang

Ed: I also have an Eos and Damnation, and jump clones one jump out to power them. A Proteus is 4 jumps out, and the Legion is 6. I have max skills for all leadership, T3s, and Command Ships. Access to whatever leadership bonus, completely maxed out, is a trivial issue for me. Hell, with a small amount of effort (moving an alt from Amarr to Amamake) I can run full T3 gang links by myself across my 4 accounts.


Piece of **** ******* forum ate my post because I'm a nubtard. A real pity, it was a good post.

The quick and dirty......

Liang, you are not and have not and will not be the only person with links. I have the same link capabilities as you.

We're in the tracking enhancer shield tank age. You know armor is hurting right now, and getting worse by the minute. Extending point range WITH the proliferation of links would make the situation worse. Boost tech 2 warp disruptor to 40km and nerf the link to 20% and you still have tech 2 warp distruptors with republic fleet linked range. I do not fancy the idea of being kited at 50km by anything and everything. If you're gonna point me at that range you'd best have potential shiny loot.

Oh but armor will get a buff eventually! Oh right sure, I've heard that one before. Look at me and my 1200m/s cruiser! I sure do hope I can cover the XX,XXXm distance between the end of his warp disruptor and the optimal of my scram!

That's hard enough sometimes at a difference of 13,200.

Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#126 - 2013-01-14 12:57:17 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:

They're running out of things to whine about, so their new whine apparently is that TE autocannons aren't owning non-TE autocannons under 24km.....when you have a massive EHP disadvantage. Blasters get good and suddenly they want to push tackle range out to where they know they'll never get scrammed by a slower ship.


I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. I have access to links literally any time I want, and have both a Tengu and Loki stationed in Amamake for just that purpose. I even have an extra computer to run them on so it doesn't interfere with my main PVP account.

But instead I'm pushing for the links to not play such a strong role in tackle and active tanking. It's not to my advantage, really, so... maybe you're just being a ******* idiot with that accusation? :)

-Liang

Ed: I also have an Eos and Damnation, and jump clones one jump out to power them. A Proteus is 4 jumps out, and the Legion is 6. I have max skills for all leadership, T3s, and Command Ships. Access to whatever leadership bonus, completely maxed out, is a trivial issue for me. Hell, with a small amount of effort (moving an alt from Amarr to Amamake) I can run full T3 gang links by myself across my 4 accounts.


Piece of **** ******* forum ate my post because I'm a nubtard. A real pity, it was a good post.

The quick and dirty......

Liang, you are not and have not and will not be the only person with links. I have the same link capabilities as you.

We're in the tracking enhancer shield tank age. You know armor is hurting right now, and getting worse by the minute. Extending point range WITH the proliferation of links would make the situation worse. Boost tech 2 warp disruptor to 40km and nerf the link to 20% and you still have tech 2 warp distruptors with republic fleet linked range. I do not fancy the idea of being kited at 50km by anything and everything. If you're gonna point me at that range you'd best have potential shiny loot.

Oh but armor will get a buff eventually! Oh right sure, I've heard that one before. Look at me and my 1200m/s cruiser! I sure do hope I can cover the XX,XXXm distance between the end of his warp disruptor and the optimal of my scram!

That's hard enough sometimes at a difference of 13,200.



Why do you need to cover the distance when you can just fit some TE's and hit him anyway?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#127 - 2013-01-14 18:42:36 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:

The quick and dirty......

Liang, you are not and have not and will not be the only person with links. I have the same link capabilities as you.

We're in the tracking enhancer shield tank age. You know armor is hurting right now, and getting worse by the minute. Extending point range WITH the proliferation of links would make the situation worse. Boost tech 2 warp disruptor to 40km and nerf the link to 20% and you still have tech 2 warp distruptors with republic fleet linked range. I do not fancy the idea of being kited at 50km by anything and everything. If you're gonna point me at that range you'd best have potential shiny loot.

Oh but armor will get a buff eventually! Oh right sure, I've heard that one before. Look at me and my 1200m/s cruiser! I sure do hope I can cover the XX,XXXm distance between the end of his warp disruptor and the optimal of my scram!

That's hard enough sometimes at a difference of 13,200.


Why are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? My desire is to shift certain bonuses away from links and towards the base items. This means that all the SP I've dumped into Leadership and all the ISK I've dumped into link ships and a POS is rendered much less powerful. This is in no way to my benefit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#128 - 2013-01-15 19:00:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:

The quick and dirty......

Liang, you are not and have not and will not be the only person with links. I have the same link capabilities as you.

We're in the tracking enhancer shield tank age. You know armor is hurting right now, and getting worse by the minute. Extending point range WITH the proliferation of links would make the situation worse. Boost tech 2 warp disruptor to 40km and nerf the link to 20% and you still have tech 2 warp distruptors with republic fleet linked range. I do not fancy the idea of being kited at 50km by anything and everything. If you're gonna point me at that range you'd best have potential shiny loot.

Oh but armor will get a buff eventually! Oh right sure, I've heard that one before. Look at me and my 1200m/s cruiser! I sure do hope I can cover the XX,XXXm distance between the end of his warp disruptor and the optimal of my scram!

That's hard enough sometimes at a difference of 13,200.


Why are you deliberately misunderstanding my posts? My desire is to shift certain bonuses away from links and towards the base items. This means that all the SP I've dumped into Leadership and all the ISK I've dumped into link ships and a POS is rendered much less powerful. This is in no way to my benefit.

-Liang


I don't see how giving everybody the ability to kite at 40km would be better than just the loki linked guys doing it at 40km. Even while boosting scram range at the same time. that would create some 20km kiting setups that kite you with a scram.

And then you think they'll eliminate the Interdiction Maneuvers ganglinks? What, so the tier 3 bc gangs won't have to bring gallente recons anymore?

And as usual you are ignoring my point and mentioning your links again. Please stop using that as an excuse.

----->How would extending warp disruptor range NOT be an overall nerf to armor tanking? <------
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#129 - 2013-01-15 22:15:53 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:

I don't see how giving everybody the ability to kite at 40km would be better than just the loki linked guys doing it at 40km. Even while boosting scram range at the same time. that would create some 20km kiting setups that kite you with a scram.

And then you think they'll eliminate the Interdiction Maneuvers ganglinks? What, so the tier 3 bc gangs won't have to bring gallente recons anymore?

And as usual you are ignoring my point and mentioning your links again. Please stop using that as an excuse.

----->How would extending warp disruptor range NOT be an overall nerf to armor tanking? <------


I don't understand how you believe that the game is better served by only the people with Loki links kiting at 40km. I don't understand how you don't understand that the existence of those people with loki links ALREADY nerfs armor in exactly the way you're complaining about. I don't understand why you can't see that the 20km scram kiting setups ALREADY EXIST and are relatively common. I don't understand why you think a Tier 3 gang needs to bring a Gallente Recon when they can bring a Loki or Claymore.

Basically: it doesn't change anything - it just nerfs links.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#130 - 2013-01-15 23:52:51 UTC
GET OUT
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#131 - 2013-01-16 00:48:35 UTC
ROCK OUT WITH YOUR GLOCK OUT

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#132 - 2013-01-16 01:56:51 UTC
I LIKE ALL CAPS TOO
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-01-16 01:56:58 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
ROCK OUT WITH YOUR GLOCK OUT

didn't you forget something?

-Ares Desideratus
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#134 - 2013-01-16 01:59:48 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
ROCK OUT WITH YOUR GLOCK OUT

didn't you forget something?

-Ares Desideratus


NO

-Ares Desideratus[/quote]

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#135 - 2013-01-16 02:03:23 UTC
Woah, I can't believe Liang forgot his/her signature! I didn't even notice.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#136 - 2013-01-16 03:03:55 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Woah, I can't believe Liang forgot his/her signature! I didn't even notice.


I didn't forget. It wasn't worth wasting the time on it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#137 - 2013-01-16 03:11:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Woah, I can't believe Liang forgot his/her signature! I didn't even notice.


I didn't forget. It wasn't worth wasting the time on it.

-Liang

Fair enough. Also, do you mind if I inquire as to your gender? Out of a chauvanistic habit I assume that almost everyone on the internet is male, yet your avatar is a female, and your name lends no gender to itself (that I am able to observe). I just don't want to address you incorrectly and I'd rather not have to type his/her, or s/he, etc.

If you don't want to post it though, doesn't matter.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#138 - 2013-01-16 03:18:09 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Woah, I can't believe Liang forgot his/her signature! I didn't even notice.


I didn't forget. It wasn't worth wasting the time on it.

-Liang

Fair enough. Also, do you mind if I inquire as to your gender? Out of a chauvanistic habit I assume that almost everyone on the internet is male, yet your avatar is a female, and your name lends no gender to itself (that I am able to observe). I just don't want to address you incorrectly and I'd rather not have to type his/her, or s/he, etc.

If you don't want to post it though, doesn't matter.


https://twitter.com/taugrim/statuses/234028564201234432

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-01-16 04:53:33 UTC
They will never nerf links in the way you want them to, simply because hat would suddenly make a lot of Million skillpoints useless and thus you would make a lot of alts useless which they can't do for obvious reasons.


Also as stated before, a simple tracking disruptor pushes down the effective range of the brawler by so much that you can kite him with no problem at all, if you can actively reduce their range and thus make your problem go away I don't see the point in not taking it into equation.



Tl:Dr

Fit dual TDs to your stabber and it can kite in 24 km with no problems at all!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#140 - 2013-01-16 06:15:05 UTC
There is a major problem when the game when the shortest range short range weapons outrange T2 point range.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.