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(EVE PAPER) Life May Not Be As Common In The Universe As You Think
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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-01-07 03:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Alpheias wrote:


I asked you to define intelligent life for me. And I do wish I could say this in a nicer way, but I am not really surprised that you couldn't because it takes intelligence to define intelligence. Go back to watching the History Channel, bible studies or whatever you do when your parents tell your computer time is up.




Eternum Praetorian wrote:
May I remind everyone here that we are not talking about the occurrence of "life" we are talking about the occurrence of intelligent self-aware life. There is a big difference between those two things by leaps and bounds. There may be bacteria sucking on thermal vents beneath the ice of Europa, but there are not people down there sucking on them and metabolizing sulfur.



More then enough for the subject matter of this thread. And if not, allow me to be more clear... we are not trying to define intelligence here beyond the simple notion of extraterrestrial, civilization capable, self-aware, technology building entities. "Intelligence" is a term that is more then sufficient for the subject matter of the op. But again... nice try Big smile

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Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2013-01-07 05:55:35 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

More then enough for the subject matter of this thread. And if not, allow me to be more clear... we are not trying to define intelligence here beyond the simple notion of extraterrestrial, civilization capable, self-aware, technology building entities. "Intelligence" is a term that is more then sufficient for the subject matter of the op. But again... nice try Big smile


You seem more edgy than usual so what are you hoping for? For ******* E.T. to call the wrong number instead of phoning home?

Have you been listening to the UFO guy on the History Channel again?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-07 06:13:21 UTC
Alpheias wrote:


Have you been listening to the UFO guy on the History Channel again?

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#44 - 2013-01-07 06:16:17 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

You Are Also Going To Need A Moon

Without a moon the earth would flip on it’s side as it spins like Mars does. There would be nothing resembling a stable climate and even the length of the days would change without our moon. There would be no hope for a civilization on a planet where the equator became the north pole and visa versa regularly. The climate shifts would be extreme and extreme heat and cold would visit every continent. This wobble would alter the flow of oceans, such as the Gulf Stream, that act as climate control conveyer belts that keep the planets climate in check.


Mars has an axial tilt of 25.19°. Earth has an axial tilt of 23,44°. They are almost the same. And why would the moon have something to do with stabilization? If anything, the moon is a disturbing factor for earth. Planets don't just flip on it's side if there is nothing around that changes the angular momentum. they are quite stable.

And the tides actually slow the rotation of the earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gftT3wHJGtg

I see two big problems when speculating about the abundance of life or the abundance of intelligent life.

- abundance of life
We don't even have the complete picture yet how self replicating molecules form. And if we don't know the process or if there are more than one possibility to actually start life we have no clue how probable or improbable it may be.

Also our knowledge about possible biochemistry is a one point statistic. We know no other form of life. That is the worst possible position if you want to speculate about abundance of life.

That's also why finding life in our solar system is so important. Maybe there is non, but if we find life and it is not related to us (no panspermia) that would increase our knowledge about biochemistry literally astronomically. And we can only look in our solar system, so it better has to be there! Big smile

- abundance of intelligence

-- Definition of Intelligence
Almost same story here. We know something about evolved intelligence in animals. But we are all so closely related that it isn't that much of a difference.

My guess is that there is more to intelligence than just the known evolved intelligence we see. I say that because of what i see in projects with artificial intelligence (like IBM watson). In my opinion this experiments with artificial intelligence will give us a glimpse at what else could be possible and what the boundaries of intelligence and sentient "life" is.

- - abundance
We don't fully understand what it is and we have a one point statistic that tells us that it took billions of years to get from life to sentient life. Everything you can do is take a wild guess.

tl;dr
We have no frakin idea, but wo know where to look to change that.
Harley Marsten
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-01-07 07:02:43 UTC
The OPs stance is no less nor no more valid than the opposing stance. Its an unknown, exactly, how common or uncommon life in the universe is, much less intelligent life. Fact is, homo sapiens are on the receiving end of an extraordinary bout of good luck. We're just the right distance from the sun, just the right sized moon, and just the right conditions to evolve a large, complex brain.

The question is, how many scenarios are there were intelligence is an evolutionary advantage?

I've always been of multiple minds about this. I want to beleive there are other intelligent life forms out there. But what are the chances of them looking in the right spot to find us, given the intelligence advantage is theirs, or we're looking in the right direction to find them? We are just now starting to refine techniques to find other planets, and even then finding something that isn't a massive, bloated gas giant is a lot more difficult.

So finding another world where intelligence makes sense to have evolved is going to be difficult at best.

On the other hand, the philisophical side of my brain wonders if intelligence is truly a benefit, or if we're intelligent for the sole purpose of wiping the world clean to start anew. But thats a debate for another day.

In summary, is it possible for there to be other intelligent civilizations? Yes. Is it possible there isn't? Yes. Both are equally valid until we get more data one way or the other.
Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-01-07 07:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Graygor
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Alpheias wrote:


Have you been listening to the UFO guy on the History Channel again?



Thats wn.

And anyone remember when the history channel used to have... you know... content?

Edit

Harley Marsten wrote:

In summary, is it possible for there to be other intelligent civilizations? Yes. Is it possible there isn't? Yes. Both are equally valid until we get more data one way or the other.


Pretty much this, this whole arguement is moot as there's no way anyone can be right as we will have to get out there and have a look. By that point we'll all be long dead anyway. Stop arguing in terms of right or wrong, thats impossible, you're debating theory not fact. Anyone who talks about extra planetary lfe in terms of fact is a damn idiot... unless they have a stargate and have been travelling the galaxy. Shocked

"I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." - Kenneth O'Hara

"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commissar "Cake" Kate
Harley Marsten
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-07 07:33:13 UTC
Graygor wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Alpheias wrote:


Have you been listening to the UFO guy on the History Channel again?



Thats wn.

And anyone remember when the history channel used to have... you know... content?

Edit

Harley Marsten wrote:

In summary, is it possible for there to be other intelligent civilizations? Yes. Is it possible there isn't? Yes. Both are equally valid until we get more data one way or the other.


Pretty much this, this whole arguement is moot as there's no way anyone can be right as we will have to get out there and have a look. By that point we'll all be long dead anyway. Stop arguing in terms of right or wrong, thats impossible, you're debating theory not fact. Anyone who talks about extra planetary lfe in terms of fact is a damn idiot... unless they have a stargate and have been travelling the galaxy. Shocked


You mean when it was the World War II channel?
Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-01-07 07:43:28 UTC
Harley Marsten wrote:

You mean when it was the World War II channel?


Not sure where you live, but in the UK they used to do a lot of stuff on famous European leaders such as Wellington, Napoleon, the rise and fall of Communism, pretty much lots of stuff on the 18th - 20th centuries. And yes, LOTS of WW2 stuff as well. I used to remember seeing World War 2 in colour being advertised all the time in the late 90s.

Then they started filling it with cheap rubbish like Ancient Aliens and so on... Evil

History channel has gone the way of Sci Fi... sorry, SyFy (shudder) with pro wrestling instead history have things like Pawn Stars which is actually interesting from the history side. They just need Rick to do the whole show and then the quality would go up.

"I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." - Kenneth O'Hara

"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commissar "Cake" Kate
Harley Marsten
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-01-07 07:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Harley Marsten
I'm in the US. (funny, I went to type US, typed "SS". Freudian slip?) Once in a while there was a nugget of goodness, but for the most part, 24/7 World War II. Then the nutjobs started chiming in with "Histories Mysteries" and Atlantis nonsense (funny how so many people beleive an allegory to be a real historical account...)

Now its basically nutjob conspiracy shows like Brad Meltzer's Decoded and Ancient Aliens, "reality" shows like Pawn Stars and American Pickers (which are watchable, if a bit dull at times) and up until 12/21 came and went, hours upon hours of Apocalyptic hype (Nostradamus Effect, etc) which I fully expect will resume when the next nutjob end of the world prophecy comes up.

Now that I think about what, what exactly qualifies us as intelligent? We're pretty much sheep when it comes to others trying to control us...
Rana Ash
Gradient
Electus Matari
#50 - 2013-01-07 09:31:34 UTC
Well it's life Jim, but not as we know it. Not as we know it Captain
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#51 - 2013-01-07 10:42:34 UTC
Well we know one thing for certain - the probability of intelligent life happening on a given planet is higher than zero.

That plus the fact there is a near-infinite amount of planets in the universe makes me thing that a-yep, we're not alone.

The only question: Is it possible to travel from one habitated planet to another within the lifespan of a civilization?
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-01-07 12:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Karak Terrel wrote:

Mars has an axial tilt of 25.19°. Earth has an axial tilt of 23,44°. They are almost the same. And why would the moon have something to do with stabilization? If anything, the moon is a disturbing factor for earth. Planets don't just flip on it's side if there is nothing around that changes the angular momentum. they are quite stable..



Look it up Big smile


Also I totally agree with the last couple of posters. The point of this thread is that one IS as equally possible as the other, and we cannot know. Both are equally as correct and one way of thought does not eclipse the other. Most all life could be carbon based and we could be a rarity in the cosmos. There is no reason why not.


It is less "fun" but it is very possible.

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Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#53 - 2013-01-07 13:03:00 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:

Mars has an axial tilt of 25.19°. Earth has an axial tilt of 23,44°. They are almost the same. And why would the moon have something to do with stabilization? If anything, the moon is a disturbing factor for earth. Planets don't just flip on it's side if there is nothing around that changes the angular momentum. they are quite stable..


Look it up Big smile


Hmm.. You are actually right. Sorry for that. Thx for the educating me.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-01-07 13:27:03 UTC
Np. I am here to learn to Big smile

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#55 - 2013-01-07 20:22:38 UTC
And this appeared today:

"Press Release

Release No.: 2013-01For Release: Monday, January 07, 2013 01:30:00 PM EST
At Least One in Six Stars Has an Earth-sized Planet
Long Beach, CA - The quest for a twin Earth is heating up. Using NASA's Kepler spacecraft, astronomers are beginning to find Earth-sized planets orbiting distant stars. A new analysis of Kepler data shows that about 17 percent of stars have an Earth-sized planet in an orbit closer than Mercury. Since the Milky Way has about 100 billion stars, there are at least 17 billion Earth-sized worlds out there.

Francois Fressin, of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA), presented the analysis today in a press conference at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Long Beach, Calif. A paper detailing the research has been accepted for publication in The Astrophysical Journal.

Kepler detects planetary candidates using the transit method, watching for a planet to cross its star and create a mini-eclipse that dims the star slightly. The first 16 months of the survey identified about 2,400 candidates. Astronomers then asked, how many of those signals are real, and how many planets did Kepler miss?

By simulating the Kepler survey, Fressin and his colleagues were able to correct both the impurity and the incompleteness of this list of candidates to recover the true occurrence of planets orbiting other stars, down to the size of Earth.

"There is a list of astrophysical configurations that can mimic planet signals, but altogether, they can only account for one-tenth of the huge number of Kepler candidates. All the other signals are bona-fide planets," says Fressin.

Most sun-like stars have planets

Altogether, the researchers found that 50 percent of stars have a planet of Earth-size or larger in a close orbit. By adding larger planets, which have been detected in wider orbits up to the orbital distance of the Earth, this number reaches 70 percent. "


http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/2013/pr201301.html

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-01-07 20:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Quote:
A new analysis of Kepler data shows that about 17 percent of stars have an Earth-sized planet in an orbit closer than Mercury. Since the Milky Way has about 100 billion stars, there are at least 17 billion Earth-sized worlds out there.


There is allot I can comment on in this article, but first I have to ask... "Closer then Mercury?" is that meant to be a "pro-intellegent-life-is-everywhere-out-there" discovery? That jumps off of the page and says that 17% of stars have earth size planets burning up near their parent stars.


Quote:
Altogether, the researchers found that 50 percent of stars have a planet of Earth-size or larger in a close orbit. By adding larger planets, which have been detected in wider orbits up to the orbital distance of the Earth, this number reaches 70 percent. "


That's even worse.


One would presume that all "metallic" stars of appropriate age would have an accretion disk that would create celestial bodies as it cooled.

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#57 - 2013-01-07 21:27:23 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


That's even worse.



Explain why this would be 'worse' ?

The Universe is what it is. It knows of no such concept.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-01-07 22:41:46 UTC
No one knows and that is the Truth
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-01-07 23:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:


That's even worse.



Explain why this would be 'worse' ?

The Universe is what it is. It knows of no such concept.



17 Billion earth sized planets, a large portion of which as close or closer to their sun then Mercury (which is 400 degrees Celsius on the day side and -200 on the night side) is not a case for intelligent life on those worlds but is quite the opposite. They have discovered roughly 17 billion versions of hell. As for the larger ones near earth's orbit it fails to define their size, and since Jovian worlds would be a totally different ball of wax, not much of substance can be concluded from that.


So
1. I am not entirely sure what they have found in terms of the "larger worlds" (as it is not clear)
2. but the earth size worlds that they have found seem to be predominately occupying some burning real-estate. That is not a plus, especially since location is just the first random thing that needs to occur out of a whole batch of random occurrences to generate even the spark of life, let alone long term and stable intelligent life.



See Picture

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Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-01-08 00:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Satomi
How about something a little more, uhh, sciencey: http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.3835

Also, to contribute to the discussion, it turns out that spacetime is flat (which, for those in the know, means the universe is likely infinite).