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Definition of botting

Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2013-01-04 01:57:57 UTC
leoplusma wrote:
truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out.
there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing.
but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp
can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro.
to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously
in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human
which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows?



Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Ginger Barbarella
#22 - 2013-01-04 02:05:37 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
leoplusma wrote:
truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out.
there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing.
but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp
can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro.
to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously
in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human
which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows?



Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee.


Yeah, that one operation 2 years ago sure showed us!!

Hey, wait a second...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2013-01-04 02:10:17 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Look up "Unholy Rage" and see if you still think CCP gives bots a pass because they want the sub fee.

Yeah, that one operation 2 years ago sure showed us!!

Yes. That one and the ones that followed.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-01-04 02:11:27 UTC
irishFour wrote:
What is it.

If some one were using a program, and i know that they are out there, that would duplicate your commands among many clients, but you were at your computer in full control, is that against the eula.

That has already been explicitly confirmed as acceptable by CCP.

irishFour wrote:
Is there a botting thread that defines or describes different forms botting, what is and isn't allowed for 3rd party applications. I remember one time, a long time ago, while living in highsec. I witnessed 15 ravens all docking at the same time, and the guys name were all one number apart.

Let me know
irish

That's not sufficient to determine botting. That person could have very easily been using a multiboxing program to send his commands to multiple clients on the same machine simultaneously. Again, CCP has explicitly allowed this.

Botting is when you're using a program that is capable of issuing commands independent of user input. The program doesn't necessarily need the ability to make decisions (which most ratting/mission bots would require), it could be as simple as a macro that presses ctrl + up arrow every few minutes to keep spamming Jita local with scam contracts.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-01-04 02:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
leoplusma wrote:
truth is, if you try to run a macro in one account, ccp will kick your char out.
there was a stupid guy in my corp once upon a time and he is no longer playing.
but if you run macros in 40 characters at the same time, well then, ccp
can claim that you are perhaps multiboxing and not running macro.
to be honest, how can ccp realise that the X order which happens simultaneously
in 40 characters is because of a macro or it is a key pressed by a human
which was automatically repeated 40 times in different windows?

CCP claims (and we have no reason to believe otherwise) that the server collects information on user behavior, and uses this information to determine whether certain users are bots. For example, the intervals between commands issued by a human would be fairly irregular, whereas a bot that wasn't explicitly designed otherwise would issue commands at very precise intervals which can be easily timed and reported by the server. If a miner releases drones exactly 3 seconds after rats appear in its belt, and does so several times consistently, then such behavior is more indicative of a bot.

Obviously it wouldn't be terribly difficult to modify the bot add some variability to this behavior (I could say, release drones at 3 seconds plus a random number between negative two and two seconds), so bot creation and bot detection become something of an arms race. Bot programmers probably have to continue to find new ways to make their tools more lifelike or hard to detect, and CCP has to come up with new ways to distinguish botting players from multiboxers.

The point is, the number of ships being controlled doesn't really factor in here, what really factors in is the behavior of whatever is controlling the ships, whether that's an actual person or a computer program.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sidrat Flush
School of Applied Knowledge
#26 - 2013-01-04 05:27:52 UTC
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.

Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-04 06:12:16 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Multiboxing is NOT botting, despite what high sec gankers try to say on the Forums.


Considering that many hisec gankers multibox, well, this is obviously more nonsense you're making up.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#28 - 2013-01-04 06:16:20 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.

James 315 and the New Order are trying to turn the tides of bot aspirants.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#29 - 2013-01-04 14:40:30 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.

Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.



Goonswarm did turn mining into a mini game for extra yield for a couple months. The miners whined, and CCP showed that they wanted to reward the bot-like behavior and buffed barges.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Sidrat Flush
School of Applied Knowledge
#30 - 2013-01-04 15:30:20 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Sidrat Flush wrote:
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.

Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.



Goonswarm did turn mining into a mini game for extra yield for a couple months. The miners whined, and CCP showed that they wanted to reward the bot-like behavior and buffed barges.


Oh yes very true. The New Order is amazing and well written and has gone some way to make mining an interactive activity, if only CCP coild bite the bulet and change the entire mechanics of mining and mineral acquisitions.

Scannable omly grav sites. Yes - keep veldspar ore in 1.0 systems maybe 0.9 as well so that the newest of all alts and players are introduced to the mining.

Miming Laser Path Routes. The player draws a route on the ore which should follow a vein for maximum yield. Just an idea off the top of my head.

Its time to stand up against the bad empire based CEO telling falsehoods about what new characters can accomplish and pushing them towards an in game experience of drudgery and loneliness keeping them in the shadow of ignorance for at nest their own profit at worse apathy towards all the experiences that Eve has to offer.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2013-01-04 15:36:13 UTC
Sidrat Flush wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Sidrat Flush wrote:
It's a sad thing that the game mechanics make people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible.

Perhaps turn mining into a mini game for extra yield or faster cycle time.



Goonswarm did turn mining into a mini game for extra yield for a couple months. The miners whined, and CCP showed that they wanted to reward the bot-like behavior and buffed barges.


Oh yes very true. The New Order is amazing and well written and has gone some way to make mining an interactive activity, if only CCP coild bite the bulet and change the entire mechanics of mining and mineral acquisitions.

Scannable omly grav sites. Yes - keep veldspar ore in 1.0 systems maybe 0.9 as well so that the newest of all alts and players are introduced to the mining.

Miming Laser Path Routes. The player draws a route on the ore which should follow a vein for maximum yield. Just an idea off the top of my head.


So how would either of those prevent "game mechanics mak[ing] people do the best impersonation of a bot programme, in order to be as efficient as possible"?

From what I understand, modern bots have no problem using scan probes. Drawing a route to cover some visible vein would similarly be easier for a bot than a human.

(PS The new Order is not affiliated with Goonswarm, nor is it related to Hulkageddon, which was the event I was referring to.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

GreenSeed
#32 - 2013-01-04 16:07:55 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
Sidrat Flush wrote:


Miming Laser Path Routes. The player draws a route on the ore which should follow a vein for maximum yield. Just an idea off the top of my head.


there isn't a single thing that has to be repeated over and over, with slight variations within a given set of rules, that a machine cant do better than a human beign.

nothing.

end of discussion.

you wont come up with a clever solution to botting, because every single internet based industry, from blizzard to microsoft, has thrown hundreds of millions of dollars at the problem to try and solve it and they have failed so far.

why do you think the only way to, at least, slow down bots online is to use catpchas? hundreds of other alternatives were used, ranging from solving geometry problems, to simple logic problems. none work, because machines are simply faster and better prepared to solve them.

the only way around this problem has been OCR with no standardized set of typography, this trows computers off because captchas are not just one problem, each letter is a riddle on its own, and in some cases you have to solve two or three letters at the same time, in parallel, or you cant figure it out. and even if a bot can eventually solve it, it takes too long, thus the bot is no longer economically feasible.

so please, stop suggesting things that add a "minigame" to mining, the only ones negatively impacted by this are real miners. in fact, you might start to see miners who don't bot, use a OCR program to get the maximum yield. bots will simply need a few extra lines of code and use more CPU cycles. something that in modern CPU is a non issue.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#33 - 2013-01-04 16:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Definition of botting ?
Using software or hardware to accomplish tasks normally impossible without human input without the need for a human presence at the keyboard.

How can you "solve" botting forever and completely ?
Long story short, you can't.

First off, given some time and mostly menial well-known tasks to be done, you can't distinguish a well-written bot from a human being from their gameplay alone.
You could go with intrusive client-side bot-detection software, but that would be an ever-escalating arms race that mostly hurts the regular consumer rather than the botters (which only suffer momentary setbacks), so it's pointless.
You could make all tasks non-menial and with more random variation, but that too would result in something vaguely similar, although less bad, (and hopefully also a bit less boring) and you would also shift the game economy a lot by redirecting "actual human" effort between potential ISK-making activities... but that would require a HUGE amount of effort on the coding and creative side (i.e. CCP) for minimal initial benefits (if not actually incurring losses for a while because of it).

My preferred non-solution ? LEGALIZE IT.
Make botting not only legal, but also a part of the game client, with user-programmable automation tools and hooks for 3rd party software control.
At least then most people would be on an even footing.
And space would be far more target-rich.
Also, most stuff would be cheaper.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#34 - 2013-01-04 16:42:37 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Definition of botting ?
Using software or hardware to accomplish tasks normally impossible without human input without the need for a human presence at the keyboard.

How can you "solve" botting forever and completely ?
Long story short, you can't.


My preferred non-solution ? LEGALIZE IT.
Make botting not only legal, but also a part of the game client, with user-programmable automation tools and hooks for 3rd party software control.
At least then most people would be on an even footing.
And space would be far more target-rich.
Also, most stuff would be cheaper.


Even if CCP legalizes it, botting and bot-aspirant behavior like AFK mining will STILL be against the New Halaima Code of Conduct. The miners of Highsec can still depend on the New Order even when everyone else fails them....

www.minerbumping.com

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Ginger Barbarella
#35 - 2013-01-04 17:17:54 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Multiboxing is NOT botting, despite what high sec gankers try to say on the Forums.


Considering that many hisec gankers multibox, well, this is obviously more nonsense you're making up.


Irony. It doesn't work for goonies.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

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