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Pilgrim - How do you fit this thing?
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Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#21 - 2013-01-04 13:22:30 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
few things to note:

- test server is very unlike TQ, there everyone uses expensive implants and T2 rigs so if you choose not to (which you should as you're actually testing a shipfit) then you'll lose a lot but that's ok because it's about getting experience, not about winning some nonsense fight on test.

- that shield fit will work well but I would swap to AB as you're within scram range. Note that it'll suck against anything that has neuts (how ironic).

- fit #3 I'm not a fan off, you're losing out on the amazing TD bonus and the long range point doesn't mesh well with the short range neuts, i know it's for initial tackle but I'd rather be able to fight anything I tackle rather than possibly getting in trouble because of some weird choices (also AB issue again).


Yep I have been on SISI and now buckingham alot, very used to Commodore John and company, and basically, I just test a ship about 20-30 times and get a good feel for the performance, and then the warping of pod back to station to reship and do it again... but you always learn more from one's failures...lol. Seriously, its just a cheap way to fit, and test... but it gets you used to some pretty odd things and tough fights... that when on TQ you kind of get used to the reality of it, and oddly I found it helps with that as no one on TQ uses the stuff on Test as you said so you have already kind of fought the best fits out there, if you win there you prob will on TQ with that fit.

Going to try this also as a stable mate:

[Curse, Test 1]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Warp Scrambler II

Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Acolyte II x5
Infiltrator II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Salvage Drone I x5
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#22 - 2013-01-04 13:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
shield extenders should always be oversized, if you can't fit oversized ones then don't even bother. Also you don't need that many med neuts, 2 is more than enough and possible a 3rd small one to keep them dry.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#23 - 2013-01-04 13:53:21 UTC
So why does no one fit an ASB with no charges and some 19km nos... You know how cheap they are these days?

1 small neut is enough to keep a target dumped at 0% cap once you have them low and fitting an ASB or oversized shield booster will result is some insane tank while burning enough cap for nos to work.

Honestly though i dont fly the pilgrim, so i'm just basing this off of some of the curse fits i've seen around.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#24 - 2013-01-04 14:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Maeltstome wrote:
So why does no one fit an ASB with no charges and some 19km nos... You know how cheap they are these days?

1 small neut is enough to keep a target dumped at 0% cap once you have them low and fitting an ASB or oversized shield booster will result is some insane tank while burning enough cap for nos to work.

Honestly though i dont fly the pilgrim, so i'm just basing this off of some of the curse fits i've seen around.


Guess what happens if you nos that target dry but he still does damage :)
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#25 - 2013-01-04 14:03:21 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
So why does no one fit an ASB with no charges and some 19km nos... You know how cheap they are these days?

1 small neut is enough to keep a target dumped at 0% cap once you have them low and fitting an ASB or oversized shield booster will result is some insane tank while burning enough cap for nos to work.

Honestly though i dont fly the pilgrim, so i'm just basing this off of some of the curse fits i've seen around.


Guess what happens if you nos that target dry but he still does damage :)


EFT WARRIOR GOGOGOGOGOGOG

[Pilgrim, Test]

Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Disruptor II, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Script

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Corpum A-Type Medium Nosferatu
Corpum A-Type Medium Nosferatu
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Hammerhead II x5



I don't see the issue? At that range with that speed you negate almost every turret in the game...
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#26 - 2013-01-04 14:21:35 UTC
- not enough EHP to allow for mistakes
- can't run reppers for any period of time, even with the cap booster and both nos running, at least not while running MWD and without MWD the target will simply burn out of point range because trying to bleed targets with a NOS takes a bit

A drake would kill that, easily. And that is the issue, it can't do stuff other fits can't do either while having zero EHP and massive cap reliance. Not a realistic fit.
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#27 - 2013-01-04 14:48:37 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Zen Dad wrote:
i'n practise I've found that the AB can throw you out of the tight circle required to get under the other ships guns. It is also no use against missile ships ( the majority). As regards GTFO thats done by my Hornets breaking lock ( only sometimes :-() ). A decent AB will eat your cap space and doesn't give staggering advantages - you will be strolling rather than crawling.

Essentially, you are committed to the attack and I can't remember a situation yet where an AB would have helped.
Creeping towards an unexpected ratter can be frustrating, and getting from the beacon to a belt ratter 20 K away is agonising if you cant get a direct warp in, but the AB wont help you there either.

The pilgrim is fantastic against any cap reliant ships - you can turn all their cabin lights out really quickly. Currently I just seem to find more and more T3 ships with missiles in the sites - now almost untouchable because of the new AI.

Fly safe.


AB most certainly helps against missile damage and quite a bit too. HML, HAM, cruise and torps are all greatly affected by using AB on your Pilgrim. Having issues getting into short orbit because of your speed or AB cycle is just an experience thing, practise it a few times and you'll do fine. It also helps to bump the target as you uncloak, to try and keep him from warping as you're waiting the 5-6 seconds before you can lock. So yes, AB is very useful.

The problem is that a Pilgrim (or any recon for that matter) lacks the outright dps/tank combo to reliably take on specific ships, and nothing you can do in your Pilgrim will change that other than using RR, gang links or friends.




Thanks for that info about AB and missiles. Is there a stat about how much help is how much?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#28 - 2013-01-04 14:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
EFT fu. Fit a Pilgrim with AB, add a drake with HML. go to file > dps graph. Rclick in white field, add attacker drake, add target pilgrim. You'll get the damage. now enable/disable AB and see what happens.

Here's some numbers, I've set it to 90% of max speed to make the numbers more realistic as you never orbit at full speed. This ofcourse goes completely out the window if you get webbed yourself, but in that case the AB still has a use; to prevent the target of getting out of scram/web range. I'm not counting drones for a better comparison.


attacker no AB AB
HML Drake 373 212
HAM Drake 519 335
cruise raven 222 102
torp raven 271 117


**** forum doesn't allow for spacing...
Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#29 - 2013-01-04 15:13:40 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
EFT fu. Fit a Pilgrim with AB, add a drake with HML. go to file > dps graph. Rclick in white field, add attacker drake, add target pilgrim. You'll get the damage. now enable/disable AB and see what happens.

Here's some numbers, I've set it to 90% of max speed to make the numbers more realistic as you never orbit at full speed. This ofcourse goes completely out the window if you get webbed yourself, but in that case the AB still has a use; to prevent the target of getting out of scram/web range. I'm not counting drones for a better comparison.


attacker no AB AB
HML Drake 373 212
HAM Drake 519 335
cruise raven 222 102
torp raven 271 117


**** forum doesn't allow for spacing...



Those are impressively different figures and I had no idea that the missiles could be ameliorated that much - so much for me being a Pilgrim pilot. EFT on my mac doesnt seem to let me set up the ships but I will review.

Thanks for your figures - much appreciated and rather eye-opening.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#30 - 2013-01-04 15:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Well, that's the thing. Tidbits of factual knowledge like that make all the difference, that's why most people are mediocre at pvp (or the game itself really) and some do just better. They simply KNOW a whole lot of applied facts, little details and whatnot and are able to translate that into fits. strategy and playstyle. EVE is full of stuff most people don't know about or never really bothered to figure out, they just assume stuff based on zero knowledge.

Not saying that I'm amazing, just saying that it pays to delve into guides, facts, EFT and stuff like that. Victory favours the prepared :)
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#31 - 2013-01-04 15:40:12 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
- not enough EHP to allow for mistakes
- can't run reppers for any period of time, even with the cap booster and both nos running, at least not while running MWD and without MWD the target will simply burn out of point range because trying to bleed targets with a NOS takes a bit

A drake would kill that, easily. And that is the issue, it can't do stuff other fits can't do either while having zero EHP and massive cap reliance. Not a realistic fit.



The drake is a missile ship and will kill most pilgrim fits. Against a missile ship you wont be running the MWD permanently so cap is less of an issue. Also if you turn off the cloak/small neut off it's also cap stable even while running the MWD (Although ina r eal situation i'd expect you'd have to pulse the second repper).

Against turret ships, nothing short of long-range weapons will hit you with the 65%+ range disruption and the 65% tracking disruption will make those useless against you. But then again, i never claimed this could kill everything - but what pilgrim can?

Just throwing idea's out there. The main reason for this fit is that range is it's tank...

P.S.
A perfect skills drake does about 50 dps more than you can tank with faction ammo, so with overheat you'd expect to be able to bear it for a reasonable amount of time.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#32 - 2013-01-04 15:48:06 UTC
It can't do anything other pilgrims can't, it just lacks initial and proper neuting while being dangerously low on EHP and as such it simply doesn't make sense to use it over more "normal" fits.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#33 - 2013-01-04 15:51:21 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
It can't do anything other pilgrims can't, it just lacks initial and proper neuting while being dangerously low on EHP and as such it simply doesn't make sense to use it over more "normal" fits.


Rat aggro? There is a rather funny thread about a guy dieing to a drake and rats.

The AB stats are very illuminating however.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#34 - 2013-01-04 16:10:38 UTC
I'm not questioning your choice to active tank, I'm questioning your low HP while having next to no neuting power (a nos doesn't neut as much as an actual neut does) which is very dangerous because it means you can't shut down the target's dps fast enough (assuming he uses cap for it) and if he doesn't or you're not fast enough your 9k just doesn't allow for any sort of problems. Comparing your double rep to a plated one a fight would have to last over 90 seconds (and this assumes max repping and if that's not the case it'll take even longer) before you'd get ahead.

A more logical fit to use would be something like this, which pairs both EHP and some repping while having good and initial neuting power and two TD's. Enough buffer to take a hit to the chin at the beginning of the fight as you get your neuts etc going and then the single rep to gain it back during the fight and perhaps rep some npc aggro. It's also enough to take care of most of the drone damage done to you, if any.



[Pilgrim, Single rep]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Large Capacitor Battery II

Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Egress Port Maximizer I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Valkyrie II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#35 - 2013-01-04 19:25:32 UTC
Why when you have a cloak and are choosing targets would someone even try to take on a Drake in a Pilgrim, knowing he's passive tanked and missiles, and your a TD/Neut boat with drones... I think this is the part where you say... CHOOSE your TARGETS well... this isn't one of them.

I wouldn't say I would even try to take out a BC with a Recon, it seems a miss-match, the better targets seem to be BS (PvE fit) and Cruisers (PvP or PvE) fit under specific circumstances... where you decide the ground and the situation...

Or you just stay cloaked... I understand the AB difference, the reason I wan't fitting them is that I would stay cloaked right up to the point of engagement then bump, and then lock and neut and TD and blap... so your AB is almost not going to be a factor in that attack plan... and once your uncloaked your fully commited, hence you should choose wisely... and a MWD seems even less useful in the situation/attack plan.

I also wouldn't try to take on a drake, unless I had some help, but it seems it would laugh at the neuts, and TDs meh... and the drones... well not sure they could even dent that tank well enough solo, but maybe, I haven't run the numbers.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#36 - 2013-01-04 22:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Lets assume a Raven, it would take you well over 10 minutes for your 2 NOS to neut him dry, that's well over 10 minutes where you have to tank him and that assumes that for 10 minutes you're able to force your nos to neut him. Using a NOS to neut by forcing your own cap doesn't really work too well, specially not when you're active tanking. It can make sense on a Curse that's buffer fit and only needs cap for mwd and tackle but if you want to ride that thin line while having no EHP and relying on that cap to keep you alive, then uhm.. yeah :)

I know the drake was a bit of a **** move choice :P but the point stands, there's nothing that fit could kill that a normal fit can't, not realistically. So why would you risk low HP and being dependant on cap boosters for it? Most people haven't caught on to how useful batteries can be, on specific ships. Here it works great.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#37 - 2013-01-04 23:10:22 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Lets assume a Raven, it would take you well over 10 minutes for your 2 NOS to neut him dry, that's well over 10 minutes where you have to tank him and that assumes that for 10 minutes you're able to force your nos to neut him. Using a NOS to neut by forcing your own cap doesn't really work too well, specially not when you're active tanking. It can make sense on a Curse that's buffer fit and only needs cap for mwd and tackle but if you want to ride that thin line while having no EHP and relying on that cap to keep you alive, then uhm.. yeah :)

I know the drake was a bit of a **** move choice :P but the point stands, there's nothing that fit could kill that a normal fit can't, not realistically. So why would you risk low HP and being dependant on cap boosters for it? Most people haven't caught on to how useful batteries can be, on specific ships. Here it works great.


A raven will cap itself out in less than 10 minutes. With your help it will be a lot less. No raven is passive tanked... or at least no dangerous raven.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#38 - 2013-01-04 23:17:59 UTC
Good luck with your fit, tell us how it went.
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#39 - 2013-01-05 00:55:21 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Good luck with your fit, tell us how it went.


I will be testing alot of stuff I have not settled on a fit yet, but getting a feel for the ship if I like it... I ran into a odd prob, I thought the recon used a Covert Ops II cloak... but it doesn't seem to get that option with the CPU, only the Cloak II gets a CPU reduction - IS this right? or something wrong with the fittings? or my skills? EFT allowed it, but Buckingham it is way over CPU.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#40 - 2013-01-05 03:32:58 UTC
You two are like twins with different camera angles.
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