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Margin Trading Scam - A Guide
Author
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Boris Ginnungagap
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-12-04 11:53:20 UTC
Scammers are worthless scum, just like pirates.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#42 - 2011-12-04 13:00:52 UTC
Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.

If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Bloody Wench
#43 - 2011-12-04 13:42:46 UTC
Callduron wrote:
Always look at the regional average, it's your first clue. Buying when it's red should set alarm bells ringing.

If CCP want to fix it probably the most elegant way might be to cause orders to fail as soon as there is insufficient isk to cover them, rather than waiting until it's tested.



They should just remove the Min QTY part. There's no good reason to have it.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Derpette Algaert
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-12-04 15:16:59 UTC
And I thought min. buy orders comes in quite handy for regional buy orders to not need to dock on every station for 1 tritanium Roll

TIL
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#45 - 2011-12-04 16:09:23 UTC
I still don't understand why people want to take a mechanic that is working well and change it because they are too stupid to catch the scam. If you fall for it once, well, welcome to EVE. If you fall for it twice, you're ******** and deserve it.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#46 - 2011-12-04 17:53:51 UTC
Margin Trading does not scam people. People do!

Despite the best attempts by white knights like the O, CCP has so far allowed this skill to exist pretty much as it has from the start. I see no need to break one of the most strategically useful trade skills in the game.


All those claiming there is no way to know.... Uh... Minimum quantity?

Happy transactions.

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown
DrRuby
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-12-07 01:18:32 UTC
I almost fell for one of these the other day but I noticed the minimum item requirement was higher than the total units even available in the region.

I didn't even consider margin trading. Does anyone even use that skill for what its intended for? Buy orders magically disappearing when it goes south seems like a pretty big risk to me.
Xcen
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-12-07 06:24:10 UTC
Funnny that this thread pops up. Someone tried to do this with a meta 2-3 energy neut. I saw the buy order with a min. purchase of 250 units at double the sell price. Tip of advice for the scammer, don't make it so someone must invest 3billion to accommodate your buy order...you need to make it reasonable so people take the bait. (It's like baiting in a maller or drake... to obvious)
Bloody Wench
#49 - 2011-12-19 18:01:20 UTC
With school being out, now is a good time to give this topic a little nudge for the holidays.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Whang'Lo
Cosmically Irrelevant
#50 - 2011-12-30 11:59:49 UTC
Thanks for posting this.

I've seen quite a few of these buy orders around and a couple of times thought about trying to fill them.

Glad I never tried it Shocked

I was thinking that people were trying to drive up market averages or something, never knew you could place a
buy order that was impossible to fill.

How about this for a simple way CCP could fix this:

Disable the option to set a minimum volume on any margin trade.

[u]A Paranoid is just someone with all the facts - William Burroughs[/u]
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#51 - 2011-12-30 13:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Will Strafe wrote:
Teklas Romani wrote:
This is brillant even though its nothing new. I think the exspansion of this game is unreal and outright amazing as to the imagination of people. Whats sad is that there are scams like this in the real world...just laid out in this forum for EVE. Awesome to me! Big smile


Really...?

This scam was arguably invented by 2 kids playing Diablo II.

One kid enters game and writes in chat: WTB Uber sword of Slashing, paying 10 SoJ!!!

10 SoJ is about 10 times the market price.

Other Kid enters and starts spamming: Selling Uber sword of Slashing 3 sojs.

The dupe starts thinking.


Different scam.

Derpette Algaert wrote:
And I thought min. buy orders comes in quite handy for regional buy orders to not need to dock on every station for 1 tritanium Roll

TIL


This! I made the mistake of setting a buy order for a missile and forgot to set the minimum. Now I am discovering just how many stupid stations there are in the region.

Shuluman wrote:
This doesnt strike me as a scam as much as it does an exploit. The person on the recieving end of this has no way of being able to tell if they will lose out when there is a perfectly legitimate order on the market. Its not the same as contract scams or trade window ones where carefull checking will show up a problem.

Using a method to create an order with the express intention of not allowing it to be fulfilled through current game mechanics suggests that it isnt being used in the way it was intended.

.


The person on the receiving end just has to do his research. eve-central, and contributastic are made of win. If it were an honest margin trade mistake, which I've made a few times, then the price will normal. As others have said, there are some variables that indicate scam, the minimum order is not a definite, but it should make the seller think twice. If you know that a failed order can still be sold elsewhere for a profit, then it is either legit, or an honest margin mistake.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Coresti Uthlan
Guns-R-Us Toy Company
Weapons Of Mass Production.
#52 - 2012-01-17 19:51:40 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
I'm stunned.

180 views and nobody has anything to say.

Big smile



that scam has been known about for years



And yet I had a Nanofibre II go off yesterday.

Wasn't overly successful but covered costs and now I have some 2500 units that are pure profit no matter what I sell them at.



Thank you. One less person will be scammed.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-01-18 06:12:09 UTC
i got scammed tonight by Industrial Mining 750million hard earned l4 mission isk down the drain Sad

wish i knew about margin trading sooner

at least this scammer has a heart

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-01-18 06:34:54 UTC
The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.

It goes something like this; When you have 200 mil ISK to your name and you do not fully understand the complex market system of EVE, you have an idea that perhaps most have the same problem; making mistakes and bad buy/sell orders because the system appears to be so complex.

You already know enough so that you've made some profitable trades and are confident that the market is a way to make more ISK. While scanning the market for potential trades, there is suddenly a trade, right there, that seems like a sure thing to double your money. Greed takes over and there is an immediate pressure to quickly do some clicks to "make money fast" before someone else notices this "great trading opportunity". There is no time to think and consider the why and, well...

Cue tears.

I would be otherwise perfectly fine with this but it actively does drive away fairly new players from the game that manage to lose most of their net worth when falling for it and the game mechanics themselves appear legit. Unlike your average contract scams in Jita which can be avoided by just reading what you are accepting, margin trading scams appear to be what it says on the tin - the only red flag is the "too good to be true" price which is hard for newbie to see (and even if he'd understand that the price is not right, the obvious assumption is a fat finger when setting up the order or something).

The whole concept that the game could potentially allow you to set a bogus order that can't be completed is impossible to figure out without outside warning. Hence I think CCP should probably stomp on it through changes in game mechanics.
Anderron Shi
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-01-18 06:57:05 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it.
Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK? I mean it happens, so obviously there are reasons...It's just so funny, and sort of sad...I've not been scammed yet, but I'm sure every capsuleer gets scammed in one small way or another eventually..

I mean, sh*t, with all the time these people spend trying to scam people on EVE, they could be on the streets of RL scamming businessmen out of real $$ with stories about trying to get back home, lost jobs, hungry kids, sick wife, etc.

Sorry for my rant, but if I was a scammer, I'd have to look at my life and ask myself....



Umadbro?

.
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#56 - 2012-01-18 19:00:17 UTC
Anderron Shi wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
You're right it's not new, and yet every time it takes less than a day for someone to fall for it.
Lol, you can buy 2.7 billion ISK with $100. Why would anyone spend a whole workday trying to scam someone for a Plex's worth in ISK?.


Note that the actual effort exerted by the scammer is a few minutes. They can spend the rest of that day doing something else such as what you suggest.
Shar Tegral
#57 - 2012-01-18 19:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Shar Tegral
Anderron Shi wrote:
Umadbro?

Wow.

So firmly said.
So firmly clueless.

Ugotbrainbro?

As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup.

Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game.
(I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.)

Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side!
Anderron Shi
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-01-19 02:03:31 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Anderron Shi wrote:
Umadbro?

Wow.

So firmly said.
So firmly clueless.

Ugotbrainbro?

As Tasko said, the scam in question only takes minutes to setup.

Equally, not everyone who plays the game has excess cash to toss on the game.
(I.e. I pay by isk made - What I'd spend to pay for Eve I put into charities.)

Personally, I love the idea that some people toss cash into their poor isk management so that other, probably not advantaged players, can use their brains to pay for their recreation. Not free but it is cashless for one side!

yay!

.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-01-19 09:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Bloody Wench wrote:
I've found a few ways people make life hard or harder when I do one.

Completely ignore the buy/sell prices and continue like nothing has happened. It's annoying but not the end of the world.

EG: if the item is worth 1000 isk generally and I've relisted at 2000 they will not play the game and list new items at 1999.99 but go to something like 1100.
This means I have to buy thier items to maintain the artificially high price. This gets expensive fast. They are making 10% while I take on more and more liability.

Import items from an adjacent region if margins permit, and list items somewhere between 1000-1500.

Ignore the margin buy order and continue to buy at the regular price and relisting 10-20% above thier regular purchase price.
You can slightly counter the above by placing your own buys in this regard.

The worst though is when there's a large dump by a manufacturer in the order of several days worth of stock at or near the regular sell price. When this happens you either have to go under them meaning your profit is cut substantially or you have to buy them out increasing your liability significantly. Neither of which are desired outcomes.




Undercuters might hurt this as well

I love the last part of your post, because thx to those scamemers I sell my ammo at incredible stupid prices, my profits tell you thank you.
Jienna Sarain
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-20 12:09:57 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
The main reason this scam keeps working is because it presents a bait for the greed that is present in virtually every EVE player - even those cute little newbies that have just gotten their feet wet and are actually accumulating some ISK.



In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the games market mechanics.


Human greed tempted by the quick gain of a lot of isk for seemingly small amount of effort is why people fall for the margin trading scams.

It just takes a bit of thought to not fall foul to these tricks, the same with item price manipulation you see every week on various items in Jita etc and of course the contracts that look like your buying something that your not.

It's the tricksters fault but it's your mistake!


Yes, I fell for it once and know of other that haveOops

my 2 cents