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Amarr or Minmatar?
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Katie Eriker
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-01-02 17:19:08 UTC
For a while now I've been running a character with both minmatar and amarr ships and I honestly have to say I like them both a lot. However, I've reached a point where I'll need to invest considerable time into T2 weapon systems, which means I need to decide for one over the other. I have a few questions for those with enough experience in both:

1. Which of the two races' ships would be better for missions (and longer term, plexing)? My main missioning areas are Caldari space (Guristas, some Serpentis) and Amarr space, but for a Minmatar corp (which seems to add its share of Angels), which is why I'm worried lasers wouldn't perform very well. however, running Harbinger and Hurricane side by side, I have to admit I didn't see much of a difference with T1 weapons. Are lasers a bad idea for that?

2. How would you say those races' small ships (frigates up to about heavy assault cruisers) compare after the tiericide? That's what I intend to fly most of the time in pvp.

3. Which of the two races would be better for small scale pvp (mostly 0.0 border areas)? I know the usual answer is "winmatar", but I also happen to know that Arbitrator hulls and Khanid ships are amazing. However, those also mean I'd need to build other weapon systems. Which would give me the most bang for my skill point in your opinion?

4. Amarr ships highly depend on capacitor skills to make them work decently. Is there any type of skills that have a similar importance for Minmatar ships?

5. There's a lot of talk about how Machariel is the ultimate mission ship right now. Do you forsee it being nerfed anytime soon? Please note that this has nothing to do with me flying a fotm, as I don't see me sitting in it anytime soon, I'm simply trying to gauge what such a nerf would do to other projectile ships as opposed to lasers.

6. If there's anything else I might be forgetting and could be of interest to me, I'd much appreciate it if you could point it out.

I know most of these may sound noob questions to you, but I'd really like to go the right way before I lose months training in a weapon system that will be useless for most purposes.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#2 - 2013-01-02 20:08:34 UTC
Katie Eriker wrote:
For a while now I've been running a character with both minmatar and amarr ships and I honestly have to say I like them both a lot. However, I've reached a point where I'll need to invest considerable time into T2 weapon systems, which means I need to decide for one over the other. I have a few questions for those with enough experience in both:

1. Which of the two races' ships would be better for missions (and longer term, plexing)? My main missioning areas are Caldari space (Guristas, some Serpentis) and Amarr space, but for a Minmatar corp (which seems to add its share of Angels), which is why I'm worried lasers wouldn't perform very well. however, running Harbinger and Hurricane side by side, I have to admit I didn't see much of a difference with T1 weapons. Are lasers a bad idea for that?

2. How would you say those races' small ships (frigates up to about heavy assault cruisers) compare after the tiericide? That's what I intend to fly most of the time in pvp.

3. Which of the two races would be better for small scale pvp (mostly 0.0 border areas)? I know the usual answer is "winmatar", but I also happen to know that Arbitrator hulls and Khanid ships are amazing. However, those also mean I'd need to build other weapon systems. Which would give me the most bang for my skill point in your opinion?

4. Amarr ships highly depend on capacitor skills to make them work decently. Is there any type of skills that have a similar importance for Minmatar ships?

5. There's a lot of talk about how Machariel is the ultimate mission ship right now. Do you forsee it being nerfed anytime soon? Please note that this has nothing to do with me flying a fotm, as I don't see me sitting in it anytime soon, I'm simply trying to gauge what such a nerf would do to other projectile ships as opposed to lasers.

6. If there's anything else I might be forgetting and could be of interest to me, I'd much appreciate it if you could point it out.

I know most of these may sound noob questions to you, but I'd really like to go the right way before I lose months training in a weapon system that will be useless for most purposes.


1)
Minmatar, the Varg and Mach absolutely hands down, because Amarr is limited to EM/Thermal
2)
equally, nothing major has changed, even thought the Cane got hurt, its still capable of old shield fittings with little to no consequences when it comes to roaming.
3)
Amarr is the winner for small scale PvP hands down, considering the changes to Cap charges and newting
4)
you will, YOU WILL find Core skills a priority to take to elite, sooner then later, and their both cap hungry, Amarr just depends more on Capacitor skills.
5)
Dont worry about hearsay, Mach is one of the top PVE ships, its ultimatness is contested.
6)
you can always ask more specific questions.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#3 - 2013-01-03 04:16:21 UTC
It really depends on what amarr ships you will fly if you fly air amarr. If there is no bonus to energy weapons on the ship for example there is no need to fit lasers to your boat. This means auto cannon and artillery can still be your primary weapons, though as I said you would need to analyze what you want to do.

I used to have it tied to my bio but I grabbed this from Grismar's Wiki.
Main Damage types to use on npc factions:
Guristas - Kinetic
Serpentis - Thermal
Mordus - Thermal & Kinetic
Blood - EM & Thermal
Sansha - EM & Thermal
Angel - Explosive
Mercenary - Thermal
Corpum - EM & Thermal
Gist - Explosive
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-01-03 05:53:30 UTC
Minmatar for solo/small gang, amarr for large fleets.
Katie Eriker
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-01-03 07:18:14 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
I used to have it tied to my bio but I grabbed this from Grismar's Wiki.
Main Damage types to use on npc factions:


I know how things work. I guess my main question here was - are lasers really that bad against EM resist mobs such as Guristas as to be nigh unusable?

My confusion is further increased by the exact comments Kara and Eternal posted above - Kara states that Amarr are best for small gang, while Eternal places Minmatar first. I guess this just means they're balanced :p

Quote:
This means auto cannon and artillery can still be your primary weapons, though as I said you would need to analyze what you want to do.


I guess this part helped most. By going projectiles, I can get most Minmatar ships covered, as well as select few Amarr, leaving branching into proper Amarr for later if necessary.

Thank you for your answers, everyone :)
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2013-01-03 08:40:01 UTC
1a. If in Amarr space, fly Amarr. The Nightmare is the best PvE battleship against Sanshas, Drones, and Blood Raiders. It can hold it's own against everything else except the Angel Cartel, which basically laugh at lasers.

1b. If in Minmatar space, fly Minmatar (seeing a pattern here?). The Machariel is the best PvE battleship against the Angel Cartel and can preform acceptably against everything else. It does have trouble applying Kinetic damage though, which leaves it weak (but still doable) against Guristas and Serpentis.

2. I don't fly frigates anymore.

3. Both races have acceptable options in this category. The current bandwagon people seem to be jumping on is shield tanking, so that's a point in Minmatar's favour. Several Amarr ships can be shield tanked though, and I will go on record as stating that Lasers are just BETTER for PvP.

4. Both races depend on capacitor. Amarr uses more due to their guns needing it to fire, but they also HAVE a lot more of it anyway. You will need all these skills at V sooner rather than later either way.

5. The weapon systems probably wont get a nerf. If anything the double-buff (via buffing TEs at the same time) the Mach received last time it was touched will be toned down or half-undone. The ship will still be good, although I personally think the Marauders should be the best PvE battleships, and NOT the pirate battleships.

6. You'll need to ask questions. No one is about to write you an encyclopaedia of all the things they think you might want to know. Most people wont even answer your questions.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#7 - 2013-01-03 13:58:14 UTC
When in Caldari space, fly Caldari. The Golem is the best -

No? Pattern doesn't hold? Well, shoot.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#8 - 2013-01-03 16:09:33 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
When in Caldari space, fly Caldari. The Golem is the best -

No? Pattern doesn't hold? Well, shoot.


Technically the Mach is not a Minmatar ship, and the Nightmare is not an Amarr ship. That said...

Raven Navy Issue. Allows 100% selectable Kinetic damage. Has range enough to hit everything in range it can lock and then some.

It's probably not the best (Shield Navy Domi?) but it is quite nice.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#9 - 2013-01-03 16:17:47 UTC
I just wanted to add:

The gunnery SUPPORT skills are what really makes the guns effective.
Controlled bursts may not be so important for Minmatar weapons as it is for Lasers (and Hybrids). It is only a X2 modifier skill anyhow. Other than that skill, you can get medium T2 weapons in BOTH races fairly fast.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#10 - 2013-01-03 21:33:44 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
When in Caldari space, fly Caldari. The Golem is the best -

No? Pattern doesn't hold? Well, shoot.


Technically the Mach is not a Minmatar ship, and the Nightmare is not an Amarr ship. That said...

Raven Navy Issue. Allows 100% selectable Kinetic damage. Has range enough to hit everything in range it can lock and then some.

It's probably not the best (Shield Navy Domi?) but it is quite nice.


I don't like being 'that guy' but you implied, no stated, the machariel is a minmatar ship while the nightmare is an amarr ship.

You are right though, they are nice ships. I don't really ascribe to the mentality of "mach or gtfo".
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#11 - 2013-01-04 18:23:03 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I don't like being 'that guy' but you implied, no stated, the machariel is a minmatar ship while the nightmare is an amarr ship.

You are right though, they are nice ships. I don't really ascribe to the mentality of "mach or gtfo".


Yeah, my bad. The implication was there. Let me clarify;

When in Amarr space, use lasers.
When in Minmatar space, use projectiles.

I have almost perfect skills for both the Mach and the Nightmare and I fly a Nightmare when I run missions.
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-01-08 23:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Crash Lander
Katie Eriker wrote:

I know how things work. I guess my main question here was - are lasers really that bad against EM resist mobs such as Guristas as to be nigh unusable?


All your questions have been answered quite well so I'll only address this specific question. When I started with lasers (and at the lowend of the DPS spectrum) I found shooting Angel rats a real pain in the rear, everything else was manageable. You just kill them a little slower.

Once you have good DPS skills and ships you can always brute force your way through the resists, but like others have said pick the right tool for the job. Which ship/race you pick should have mostly to do with where you will be living and by extension whom you are shooting most of the time.
Aria Ta'Rohk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-01-11 04:19:28 UTC
I enjoy Minmatar for the selectable damage types. That alone is what keeps me flying them. I would go Gallente, but I live in Caldari space and do wardecs, and most missioners tank kinetic/thermal. So having pure EM and Explosive damage is a godsend. Plus Minmatar get flat bonuses to missiles, instead of to a certain damage type missile (disregarding the Hound).

I'll take 2 carebears to go, with extra tears
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#14 - 2013-01-12 02:48:08 UTC
Aria Ta'Rohk wrote:
I enjoy Minmatar for the selectable damage types.


I should point out that Projectile weapons can't really target Kinetic resists, so saying they have selectable damage types is somewhat misleading. They do have ammo that can do some kinetic damage, but it is less than half.

All the weapon systems work. They're all viable. Just projectiles are more idiot proof.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#15 - 2013-01-12 02:51:55 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Aria Ta'Rohk wrote:
I enjoy Minmatar for the selectable damage types.


I should point out that Projectile weapons can't really target Kinetic resists, so saying they have selectable damage types is somewhat misleading. They do have ammo that can do some kinetic damage, but it is less than half.

All the weapon systems work. They're all viable. Just projectiles are more idiot proof.


If you really, really need kinetic there's always titanium sabot. It gets overlooked because it's not part of the trinity but there are niche instances where it overtakes phased plasma (especially when you factor in the tracking bonus; think elite Guristas cruisers).
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2013-01-12 04:01:15 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Aria Ta'Rohk wrote:
I enjoy Minmatar for the selectable damage types.


I should point out that Projectile weapons can't really target Kinetic resists, so saying they have selectable damage types is somewhat misleading. They do have ammo that can do some kinetic damage, but it is less than half.

All the weapon systems work. They're all viable. Just projectiles are more idiot proof.


If you really, really need kinetic there's always titanium sabot. It gets overlooked because it's not part of the trinity but there are niche instances where it overtakes phased plasma (especially when you factor in the tracking bonus; think elite Guristas cruisers).


This is true, but a chunk of that damage is still going to be explosive. tracking bonus is nice, I usually keep some sabot in my PvP lokis for that reason. Less damage, but you can actually hit frigs with it.