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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.
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Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2013-02-22 16:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Radhe Amatin
oh and CCP while you are at "fixing" npc aggro why not add a transponder to PVE pilots so gankers can see them on solar system map.... we don`t want to be to much of a hustle to them. we wouldn't dare make their life harder. :)
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-02-22 17:25:23 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
And NPC's don't shoot everyone, I have never had NPCs assist me in an anom against a pve ship post patch.



Well, all I can say is that you really need to start doing pve, you'll see how much those rats will help you when someone tries to gank you, and you can even get his killmail.


This is a cup [__| please fill it with your tears.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#123 - 2013-02-22 17:34:19 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Well to make it fair and balanced rats should warp off when outmatched, requiring ratters to have to use points and thus build more threat. Rats seeing the pvper as more threatening to them than the guy killing them because he points the guy killing them is probably the stupidest thiing ccp have come up with in years.



My Hero.

Are you hearing this CCP?

He just called you guys Stupid. :)

I have to agree,
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#124 - 2013-02-22 18:37:14 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...

You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .

You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)

Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down.


Npc's should behave like real living beings ... in this sense them attacking the biggest threat they could truly say: ok the drake was against them and cynabal was only there for the drake so they leave the drake alone... also they could think **** the cyna may be attacking drake but he will more easily kill us after and attack him first... so maybe both options should be subject to chance.

Legba
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#125 - 2013-02-22 18:57:39 UTC
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Kestrix wrote:
LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...

You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .

You are working off the philosophy that the enemy of my enemy is my friend and it's not true. Ether bring a ship with a bigger tank or choose another profession :)

Edit: Sorry thought I was in GD then... that's an interesting idea but I'll have to give this one the thumbs down.


Npc's should behave like real living beings ... in this sense them attacking the biggest threat they could truly say: ok the drake was against them and cynabal was only there for the drake so they leave the drake alone... also they could think **** the cyna may be attacking drake but he will more easily kill us after and attack him first... so maybe both options should be subject to chance.

If the NPC's behaved at all rationally they'd warp out as soon as an egger hit grid.

Just sayin'

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#126 - 2013-02-22 20:02:54 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

I don't have any dislike towards carebears at all, I myself do missions to support my pvp habit.

I'm saying that the NPC AI is flawed as the "threat" system isn't adequately taking into consideration who has aggression against what and is instead prioritizing targets who use Warp disruptors/scrams.


I dunno. That sounds like they're going after a higher priority target that is more dangerous to their well being because NPCs can and will warp off if an engagement goes poorly for them, much like players.
Vegine
Sphere Foundation
#127 - 2013-02-22 23:42:58 UTC
gosh this mud fest....

The "problem" has multiple components:

1- Local warning / intel mechanic gives pve'er too easy an warning

2.-after 1 is taken care of, then its rat aggro mechanic, either favors pvp'er too much or favor pve'er too much. CCP need to tweak it so it won't give either side a whole sail advantage. 50% new on grid ship targetting chance by rats perhaps?

Forget about revertting back to old AI or getting an new AI that will NEVER target pvp ships on grid unless aggressed arguments. Those clearly give pvp'er the advantage in the engagement. The "but carebear is too hard to catch in the 1st place" means intel/warning component needs fixing, NOT the rat aggro and pve mechanic, which is a separate issue.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#128 - 2013-02-23 04:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Vegine wrote:
The "but carebear is too hard to catch in the 1st place" means intel/warning component needs fixing, NOT the rat aggro and pve mechanic, which is a separate issue.


Intel/warning component to be fixed?? This people not only is unable to catch a PvE drake in belt, they also get blown by the rats in the process.

They fail not only at PVP but also at PVE, in a single warp; how is this an intel problem?? Maybe they have to ask to some missioner how to fit their ship to survive NPC aggro.

Not like EVE can always be adapted to babysitting anyone.

For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#129 - 2013-02-23 05:22:03 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??


A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Radhe Amatin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-02-23 06:07:46 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:

For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??


A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.

what u are saying makes sense, but when u do catch a pve'er u shouldn't have full npc support in taking them down.Besides when u are hunting a pve'er lets say a battlecruiser, you already have some intel on them, like what dmg will he mostly do , what resistances he will tank.
example: if u find a drake, stop and think, look at pilot info, if hes a 3 4 year old player theres a high chance his running a maxed skilled drake, witch can easily omni tank with 3 hardners (1xem, 2x inv , 2 x LSE, 1 DCU II and have 70+ resistances across the board,abd still be able to regenerate some 350 ehp/s), so taking that on solo kinda hard for a frigate cruiser,even if they are pirate faction or navy,or even t2.
Key to solo pvp is to have good knowledge about ships capabilities,to know what fit are mostly used by players, to know when and how to engage them in combat and most important is to know to pick your fights.
Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#131 - 2013-02-23 10:02:43 UTC
So wait, because people kill/beat you easily when you feel you have an advantage, you feel the game should change some mechanics entirely... so you can kill them easily rather than find another solution.... You serioulsy want PVE to be ****** easy for bots to manage aggro, just so you can PVP PVE-ers... that's the only reason this came up?


does anybody else get the idea this guy...


IS A F***ING GENIUS?!
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#132 - 2013-02-23 11:30:47 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

For years we heard misisoners complaining cause "I've no chance against a ganker cause my ship is fitted for PVE" and the (right) answer to them always was "hey, it's EVE even if you're misisoning you have to fit prepared to PVP" or "bring a friend". Mow - since is so easy - why cannot they do the same??


This is Bull, you can easily fit a dual boat to deal with PVP threats.

This is about Rat AI being equal for both parties, not a complete role reversal which is what it is now for the solo hunter.

Rats need to be either removed from the equation or treat both parties equally or if you want actual AI..kill the biggest threat or what was blowing the crap out of them before the new guy arrived on grid.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#133 - 2013-02-23 13:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Roderick Grey wrote:
A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.



Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario:

1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away
2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool).

In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk?

Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay.

But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#134 - 2013-02-23 14:50:26 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.



Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario:

1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away
2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool).

In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk?

Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay.

But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you.


The reason I think NPCs should assist me is because that's what a logical aggression mechanic would do.

The risk is where I'm in their space, they can form up a defence fleet and kill me before I can find someone, they could even ask for help in local when/if I tackle them.

The fact is:

Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.

Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.

If you want to insult a playstyle you know nothing about you can, I'm not going to stop you looking ignorant.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#135 - 2013-02-23 16:20:33 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
A pvp ship cannot be fitted to deal with PvE and vice versa, don't use old arguments against this, and the thing is, a PvE obviously doesn't want to fight other players and therefore shouldn't be caught in the first place.



Yes. But yhe thread is about "solo PVP"; in your scenario:

1. your opponent is suposed to have no option to fight back and should only try to warp away
2. the NPC should not hurt you nut help your kill (because you are more cool).

In this scenario where is the part where you share any kind of risk?

Player ratting or misisoning ar enot there for your personal amousement, they're playing as you are. But you demand their gameplay to be automatically obliterated to enable an easy mode for you. You are only lobbing, don't care for EVE general gameplay.

But the thread was about "solo PVP"; so, please, tell me more about this kind of solo PVP where you're in a PVP ship, facing an opponent in PVE ship that is not suposed to do anything but warp away, where you risk nothing and NPC do all the job fo you.


The reason I think NPCs should assist me is because that's what a logical aggression mechanic would do.

The risk is where I'm in their space, they can form up a defence fleet and kill me before I can find someone, they could even ask for help in local when/if I tackle them.

The fact is:

Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.

Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.

If you want to insult a playstyle you know nothing about you can, I'm not going to stop you looking ignorant.



Well said that man.
Clearly most people just dont get it.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#136 - 2013-02-23 16:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Roderick Grey wrote:

Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.

Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.


Oh boy, being rude do not prove you're right, only prove you're rude.

Only idiots have problem in delaing with belt rats.

The mechanics you're talking about (like was something challenging and relevant) is not changed at all, is exaclty ythe same. Only change is a slighly improvement of rats AI that make them a bit less predictable and add a bit more some risk; and this is your problem.

Everyone else in Eve already adapted to it and elaborated new tactics. The game cannot be always downgraded to babysit a small group (always the same ones) unable to properly manage in an NPC site.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#137 - 2013-02-23 17:52:03 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

Only an idiot would be caught by someone roaming in their space.

Agression mechanics used to work like this, and Eve/Null was perfectly fine with it, if you think reverting back to the old model or changing it would "obliterate" anyone's playstyle then you have a lot to learn.


Oh boy, being rude do not prove you're right, only prove you're rude.

Only idiots have problem in delaing with belt rats.

The mechanics you're talking about (like was something challenging and relevant) is not changed at all, is exaclty ythe same. Only change is a slighly improvement of rats AI that make them a bit less predictable and add a bit more some risk; and this is your problem.

Everyone else in Eve already adapted to it and elaborated new tactics. The game cannot be always downgraded to babysit a small group (always the same ones) unable to properly manage in an NPC site.


I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to you directly, when I claimed only an idiot would be caught by a roamer, however I do consider someone who can't read intel, local, scan, corp, and/or alliance to be a person of low perception and intelligence, if you have a habit of getting tackled and felt I was referring to you directly it wasn't my intention.

The only change is that a vast majority of rat agression is generated from a warp disruptor, regardless of what it's being used on, which causes the rats to attack the ewar user almost automatically.

"Everyone else..." please, you and I both know your fallacies aren't going to do you any good in this discussion.

I can adapt yes, I can bring friends, I can not attack targets that has any tank whatsoever, but this damages solo pvp, which is my point.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
L0rdF1end
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#138 - 2013-02-25 13:08:58 UTC
Poking this thread again. Anymore to add here, speak up people, lets get some attention to this.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#139 - 2013-02-25 14:07:03 UTC
The tears coming from the would-be-griefer failures in this topic is delicious.

Carry on.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#140 - 2013-02-25 14:37:05 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
The tears coming from the would-be-griefer failures in this topic is delicious.

Carry on.
I have to agree with Asuka tbh.

You've taken full advantage of bad AI for years, time to adapt and HTFU.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.