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T2 gun vs missile skills - why oh why?

Author
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-08 02:29:09 UTC
So I'm a relatively new player, and I'd like to get to using T2 weapons... but I've been pursing gunnery, not missiles.

And I have to wonder, are the missile vs gun skills imbalanced, at least in regards to new players.

To use T2 large beam/arty/rail guns, I need to have T2 medium beam/arty/rail guns to lvl 4, and that requires T2 small beam/arty/rail guns to lvl 4.
The same goes for pulse/auto/blasters

To use T2 cruise missiles, I don't need T2 heavy missiles, and to use those I don't need T2 light missiles

The same goes for rockets/ HAM/ torpedoes.

WTF?

Why?

This adds a couple months to my skill queue.

At this point, it might just be faster to train missiles and go with Caldari ships.

Is there any reason for this discrepancy in skills, or is this just more poor game design from CCP?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2011-10-08 02:39:12 UTC
Missiles and guns are different. Lots of things about them work differently.

Have you considered missile users bitching about having to train up close and long range variants separately?

Anyhow. It's come up before. Search around. Some people think it should be changed. Some people think otherwise. There are flame wars. Eventually someone will add up how many ranks of support skills are required for each system. Someone else will point out that gun users only have to train one set of supports for three weapon systems. Someone else will counter with they "but new players" argument.

And nothing changes. So play for the long haul and train both Cool.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2011-10-08 05:45:51 UTC
EVE is not balanced. It isn't supposed to be. Balance is boring.

CCP Soundwave: Why Balancing Is Bad and Monkeys Are Good
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-10-08 06:43:29 UTC
Support skills?

Gunnery - missile launcher operation
Surgical strike - warhead upgrades
Motion prediction - target navigation predicition (5% bonus vs 10%.... ughhh)
Rapid firing - Rapid launch

Sharpshooter + trajectory analysis = 5% range bonus
Missile bombardment = 10% range bonus -> 10% rather than 5%, wtf?

Missile Projection = yet another 10% range bonus, wtf?

Guided missile precision = ? why don't we have a gunnery skill to effectively lower the sig radius of turrets?

Seems to me missile support skills are better than gunnery support skills

Sure, gunnery skills help all 3 turret types - but there are no ships with mixed gun types (ie projectile and lasers)
So, to a new player training one races skills, it doesn't help

In contrast many ships are meant to use a combination of turrets and launchers at the same time.

CCP really is horrible at balance
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#5 - 2011-10-08 10:27:27 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Sharpshooter + trajectory analysis = 5% range bonus
Missile bombardment = 10% range bonus -> 10% rather than 5%, wtf?
…because it's not a range bonus, but a flight-time bonus, and because missiles chew up that flight time in different ways than guns use optimal range.
Quote:
Missile Projection = yet another 10% range bonus, wtf?
No, it's a speed bonus, which means you can now hit targets that previously evaded you, sometimes even regardless of range.
Quote:
Guided missile precision = ? why don't we have a gunnery skill to effectively lower the sig radius of turrets?
You do: Motion Prediction.
Quote:
Seems to me missile support skills are better than gunnery support skills
No, they're just different because missiles work differently from turrets.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-10-08 15:07:52 UTC
Motion prediction does not lower the sig radius of turrets.

The closest equivalent to turret tracking is "explosion veloctiy" of missiles - as both tracking and explosion velocity are affected by target velocity (double velocity, and you double transversal for guns).

The Guided missile precision skill does not affect this attribute.
It affects the "size" of the target, or optimal "size" of the weapons target.

In this case, consider a case where you are firing on a stationary, small target from a stationary ship -
Motion prediction/high tracking gives you zero damage increase.
Likewise higher "explosion velocity" of missiles gives you zero damage increase.

Guided missile precision does give you a significant increase in damage.


Flight time bonus is effectively a range bonus - it allows you to hit targets farther out

Flight speed bonus is effectively a range bonus - it allows you to hit targets farther out - that it may allow you to hit MWDing targets that your missile previously couldn't catch only makes it even better.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#7 - 2011-10-08 16:47:42 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Motion prediction does not lower the sig radius of turrets.
…and guided missile precision does not lower the sig radius for missiles. What both skills do is lessen the effect of speed/sig-tanking in the target.
Quote:
Flight time bonus is effectively a range bonus - it allows you to hit targets farther out
…which doesn't change the fact that missiles consume flight time far differently than turrets use optimal range. Thus, it is no surprise that the bonuses are different.
Quote:
Flight speed bonus is effectively a range bonus
…which still doesn't change the fact that missiles interact with range far differently than turrets. So again, it is no surprise that the bonuses are different.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2011-10-08 21:31:25 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Support skills?


Yes. And their ranks. You missed that part.

Gunnery: 1
Controlled Bursts: 2
Motion Prediction: 2
Rapid Firing: 2
Sharpshooter: 2
Surgical Strike: 4
Trajectory Analysis: 5

Total ranks: 18

Missile Launcher Operation: 1
Guided Missile Precision: 5
Missile Bombardment: 2
Missile Projection: 4
Rapid Launch: 2
Target Navigation Prediction: 2
Warhead Upgrades: 5

Total ranks: 21

As the argument goes, missile supports require more SP. Sometimes we even get clever people who want to remove either Controlled Bursts or GMP or both, which of course skews things.

Someone clever will probably want to point out that Torpedoes break the neat pattern altogether.

Bottom line remains the same: the two weapon systems are very different. As a result, their skill trees are very different. Requiring smaller variant specs is just another such difference. And so yes, if you want to jump straight into a Raven, you can train straight for T2 cruise missiles. They'll do **** all for damage due to your poor support skills -- skills the gunnery tree does a better job encouraging while you learn to fire bigger, better weapons -- but you can do it.
Jubis Moonjuice
For Experimental Purposes Only
#9 - 2011-10-09 03:37:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and guided missile precision does not lower the sig radius for missiles. What both skills do is lessen the effect of speed/sig-tanking in the target.


Actually, GMP does lower the explosion radius, which is technically the sig radius of a missile's area of effect.

Guided Missile Precision
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2011-10-09 06:58:18 UTC
Jubis Moonjuice wrote:
Actually, GMP does lower the explosion radius, which is technically the sig radius of a missile's area of effect.
Exactly: it lowers explosion radius, not sig radius. Sig radius is a property of the target ship and you change that by applying TPs.

Thus, it does the exact same thing as motion prediction: it changes how your weapon responds to small and/or moving targets.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-10-09 16:09:07 UTC
Targets have a sig radius
Guns have a sig radius
Missiles have an explosion radius

I was talking about the sig radius of guns. I clearly said so

The damage calculations compare the weapon sig radius to the target sig radius when computing damage.

There is a skill to improve this for missiles, but not guns....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2011-10-09 17:46:42 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Guns have a sig radius
No, they have signature resolution and tracking speed.
Quote:
Missiles have an explosion radius
…and explosion velocity.
Quote:
I was talking about the sig radius of guns. I clearly said so
Then you were talking about something that does not exist. You probably meant signature resolution, but that's besides the point because you're not affecting that stat (largely because nothing does).

But here's the thing: Motion Prediction affects the tracking speed of turrets, which has the exact same effect as changing the signature resolution — it makes smaller and/or faster targets easier to hit.

Guided Missile Precision does the same thing: it makes faster and/or smaller targets easier to hit (or, more accurately, it makes them take more damage).
Quote:
The damage calculations compare the weapon sig radius to the target sig radius when computing damage.
Actually, the damage calculations for turrets compares the weapon's signature resolution and tracking speed to the target's signature radius and angular velocity. Of these, your support skills affect one thing: the tracking speed. Specifically, Motion Prediction does.

The damage calculations for missiles compare the weapon's explosion velocity and explosion radius (and damage reduction factor (and, technically, damage reduction sensitivity) to the target's speed and sig radius. Of these, your support skills affect two thing: the explosion radius and explosion velocity. Specifically, Guided Missile Precision and Target Navigation Prediction do.
Quote:
There is a skill to improve this for missiles, but not guns....
Yes there is: Motion Prediction does for turrets what GMP/TNP does for missiles. It just does it in a different way because we're talking about two different weapon types that use two vastly different damage calculations. The only real difference between the skills is that Motion Prediction works for all turrets, whereas GMP does not work for all missiles.
TuxedoMask
Moira.
Villore Accords
#13 - 2011-10-10 01:02:51 UTC
I started as an Amarr pilot living in Guristas space. WHAT.A.PAIN. So i Xtrained to projectiles\ Minmatar. Much better. But then I went to Missiles and a Drake. NIGHT and DAY. I should have went there (missiles) first, but all in all I am happy.

When you can pve and hit anything out to 75km yrds it makes life easier
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2011-10-10 02:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Small clarification:

Guided Missile Precision = 5% / level decrease in explosion radius, for guided missiles only.

Target Navigation Prediction = 5% / level increase in explosion velocity, for all missiles.

Rigor rigs for explosion radius only affect guided missiles.


Beware, math ahead!

Missile damage takes into account the target's signature size and the target's velocity, but it is an either-or situation, and you get the lowest of the damage of the two.

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN( sig / Er, 1) , (Ev / Er * sig / vel) ^ (log(drf) / log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#15 - 2011-10-10 23:14:22 UTC
Two points:

First: it is true that you can learn T2 cruise missiles without learning T2 heavy missiles. If you want to rush into a mission running Raven, and fly one ship for your entire life, this would be a benefit to you. However, if you want to fly that Raven in PVP, you will also need T2 torpedoes. Thus, you are required to train both Cruise Missiles 5 and Torpedoes 5 as pre-requisites to a Raven's T2 weapons. (Not including support skills which should already be at 5 before training T2 weapons.)

On the other hand, a gunnery pilot is led down the path of training T2 weapons with each sized ship. They will train T2 small weapons while flying frigates. After moving up to cruisers and battlecruisers they will tran T2 medium weapons. Imagine an Amarr pilot who has just trained battleships. They already have T2 medium lasers because they spent time in a Harbinger. They want both T2 pulses and T2 beams. The only skill they need to train to 5 is "Large Laser Turrets" (not including support skills which should already be at 5 before training T2 weapons.)


Second point: You may be a new character now, but think longer term. Consider that eventually you will want more variety or more utility and will cross train to another set of ships.

A Caldari pilot can focus on missiles, and completely neglect gunnery. However, they only get to fly half of the Caldari race ships. The Amarr have a couple T2 missile ships. Also, the Gurista ships use missiles as a secondary weapon behind drones. But those are pretty much the only options for the character who never trains gunnery.

On the other hand, there are a great many ships which can be flown with 0 missile skills: Almost the entire Gallente lineup, all but a few Amarr ships, the majority of the minmatar fleet, and even half of the Caldari fleet. The Sansha, Blood Raider, Angel, and Serpentis ships are also gunnery-based.

Many Minmatar ships can be flown with gunnery-only. Later, missiles can be added for more DPS. The Typhoon is the only one which can be done the other way around. A maxxed out Minmatar pilot will train both gunnery and missiles just for their own ships.

All of the support skills take time to train. A Gallente hybrid user will already have a good set of gunnery support skills when they cross train to either Amarr lasers or Minmatar projectiles, and will already have the weapon skills trained for the Caldari hybrid ships.

However, the Caldari missile user must start gunnery from scratch to get access to their own hybrid ships or a second race's ships. Also, all of the missile support skills they have trained are useless when the pilot sits in a gunship.


Finally: I am not saying missiles are bad, and I am not trying to convince you to train one or the other. Gunnery and missiles are different. They are both valid choices. The fact that they aren't the same makes the game interesting and forces you to make a meaningful choice for one or the other early in your carreer. Of course, in the EVE skill training scheme, you can always change your mind later!
grumpyguts1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-11 01:35:41 UTC
Don't fight it... join the dark side.. TwistedTwistedTwisted
Digital Messiah
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#17 - 2011-10-11 04:42:23 UTC
Gunnery works better in pvp, with most cases...

Missiles work better in pve, with some cases...

It comes down to personal preference. Honestly I have seen people manage to do everything in a gunnery boat as a missile boat for both pvp and pve. Imbalanced? Maybe a little. But not nearly as bad off as say hybrids, drones, or lasers without scorch ammo.

Something clever

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#18 - 2011-10-12 13:06:43 UTC
the explanation is simple.
missiles arent guns.
Mashie Saldana
I'm Sorry Shoot What?
WE FORM V0LTA
#19 - 2011-10-12 16:20:46 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
the explanation is simple.
missiles arent guns.

It is actually even simpler, some 9 years ago turrets were classified as a primary weapon system and missiles as secondary. That is why the skill trees are completely different.