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Defeating AFK Cloaking

Author
Niveuss Nye
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2013-01-09 03:14:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Niveuss Nye wrote:
Most other MMOs have the client check for keyboard strokes. If there is no keyboard activity after a period of time (say, an hour to thirty minutes) it automatically logs the player out.

Maybe that would be a solution.

Bots, bots, bots, bots, bots, ect.....


I hear you. Unfortunately, though that is all MMOs that have that issue. At least they would have to go through some effort and risk to thier account, though.

Auto logoff after long periods of time would be helpful other places, too. What if you had someone at the door and you got sidetracked and left yourself in game?
Dantes Wolf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-01-09 03:53:11 UTC
Seriously dude, and this isn't polite, which I normally object strongly to, but.. If you don't wan't EVE, and the paranoia, don't stay here.

Could say a lot more, but this sums it up.

Fly safe, and be smart(er).

D.

"Before you diagnose yourself with low selfesteem and depression, you should first make sure, that you are not just, in fact, surrounded by assholes".

Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#123 - 2013-01-09 07:19:30 UTC
-I am paying for my accounts, so if i want to keep an alt afk cloaked in a system while im at work i will do so
-If you can't use your bots with me being cloaked in yours system, so be it. No isk for you, lots of pleasure for me...I just finished training Tear Harvesting level 5.

Maybe you should look for other systems to your golems in? If you can't do **** with 1 dude being cloaked in your system you are doing it wrong my fwiend. So stop cluthering the forums with your ****** ideas!

Cloaking is fine, and even most of times i am not AFK!

Oh and next time i will start reporting bots again, most of times i can't be bothered as it takes effort. You know who i am talking to (WINK WINK HBC WINK)
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#124 - 2013-01-09 14:06:34 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
If local were removed, sensors strategy and cooperation would be placed as valuable means of protecting PvE income assets.


I'd like to know what crack you're smoking, given that if you remove local your 'sensors' strategy comprises of running d-scan, seeing nothing, and getting ganked by cloakies that you never saw coming. Worse than that, intel channels do not function, you can no longer track reds and have little warning of roaming gangs- intel channels actually have to have blue intel so people don't freak out seeing blue fleets passing through their d-scan range! Hunting reds that are much harder to catch and track, and PVErs have to live under constant fear of the unknown rather than only being worries when reds are in system. Most people have to move or act while cloaked, flying cheap, or with heavy security.

That isn't a bad thing by itself, it's actually quite a thrilling experience. In fact, that's how w-space is. However, we already have w-space. If you like that experience so much, just go there.

Now, back to our original program of nullsec, complete with local, bubbles and bombs, but no CONCORD. The OP subject was defeating AFK Cloaking- a nullsec issue- not augmenting it.

Funny person. I hope you don't seriously believe everything you are posting, it sounds very defeatist.

Noone is expecting any change that removes cloaked vessels from displaying in local to happen without other balancing changes. The only reason you can't hunt cloaked vessels currently is that it would be unbalanced. And by hunt I am including anything that would disable or block cloaks from functioning as they currently do.

For scanning, I would suggest the following thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=112964&find=unread

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#125 - 2013-01-09 17:01:36 UTC
An interesting post was placed on the thread I linked, my thanks to Jessica Danikov for the attention she gave it.

While I obviously do not agree with what she wrote, I appreciate the opportunity to debate this issue above the level of reflexive responses that repeat unconsidered phrases.

Here I rewrite some of my response from there, in the context more appropriate to this thread than that one.

Some have connected resistance to change as an idealistic issue. While possibly noble in specific cases, more often it is simply because change takes effort, and human nature despises any effort that is not seen as necessary.

That is the biggest obstacle EVE has in this case: the human nature of the players is pushing them to compete with the least possible amount of effort, and frankly free intel caters to this shamelessly.
The problem is that we have a section of the game meant for this play style, high sec. The fact that local chat can be used to effectively duplicate it is exactly what created AFK Cloaking.

The experience in high sec belongs exclusively in high sec. The rewards in low and null were never meant to be offered without accepting higher levels of risk, and that is not happening here.

I believe my sensor usage idea linked above offers a reasonable means of properly playing the game, one where use of a chat channel offers a lesser reward than can be achieved by proper effort with real sensors. Right now it is foolish to use sensors, as the chat channel gives more useful information according to most needs. That is a perfect example of a broken mechanic.

Some players are suggesting WH space, in a numbingly over-simplified comparison, is what null sec would transform into if local was changed.
WH space is not defined by a single difference, as that argument suggests. It simply points out it's more notable one, the difference in local chat. There are three other major differences alone that make it drastically different from null sec, let alone low or high sec.
For reference: No Outposts, No Market, and specifically limited access for entry, make this section of space a unique play experience above and beyond the simple absence of local chat's pilot roster alone.

No idea on these forums stands scrutiny with the expectation of direct insertion into the game. But they do point out a more seasoned approach to problems, and sometimes even a realization that an issue can have more than one side.
(How many seeking to nerf cloaks actually care how playable they are afterwards?)

It simply offers a more balanced and mutually play respective approach than: "nerf cloaks K thnx bye!"
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-01-09 21:04:03 UTC
So i shouldnt be able to cloak and go afk whilst i tend to my real life? please stfu OP, some one remove this guys posting rights

:)

Nahkep Narmelion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-01-09 22:51:36 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
Zen Dijun wrote:
As hard as CCP works to make it so folks can't benefit from paying EVE away from the keyboard, [...]


So how exactly do they "benefit" for being AFK and Cloaked? Apart from gaining SP.


would love to see this benefit explained in detail.
Nahkep Narmelion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-01-09 22:58:40 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The only valid change to "AFK cloaking" must involve the reason it exists


The reason it [AFK cloaking] exists is because it's a tactic with 0 risk to the cloaked person and ...



...everyone else in the system.

FIFY.
Nahkep Narmelion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-01-09 23:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nahkep Narmelion
Kestrix wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kestrix wrote:
The reason it exists is because it's a tactic with 0 risk to the cloaked person and a very real zero risk to the industrial inhabitants of that system.
Fixed.

No, an AFK cloaker can't do anything to you and no, there is plenty of warning when a hostile fleet enters the system.

The reason AFK cloaking exists is because of local. Want to fix AFK cloaking? Fix local.


Oh right. Silly me, 0 risk to having a hostile in a system with a Covert cynosural field generator... Great lets grab the Rorquals , Orca's and Hulks and lets get some mining done! We'll all warp to that large hidden asteroid belt and sit in a large clump and get rich mining ABC's


If that cloaked ship is piloted by a player who is 30km away playing tennis, YES!

Why? Because despite the fact that I am well and truly amazing (you should see my girlfriend, she is hawwwt, and my car....damn...) I still havn't figured out how to play this damn game while 30km away from my computer.

Of course, if I'm actually at my computer then I'm not AFK now am I, Mr. Genius? In fact, I'm actively playing the game and everything this working as intended.

Your problem is you can't figure out which. Is he there or is he AFK. In other words, you are succumbing to psychological warfare tactics. It isn't my problem that it is a successful way to deny you access to various in system assets.
Nahkep Narmelion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-01-09 23:56:35 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Eagle Dares wrote:


[quote=Eagle Dares]So carebears like to live in null and low sec. Isn't that what CCP wanted and encouraged?

The players, yes.
The play style, no.


To be fair, carebears can come to null. They can even carebear there. But, when the time comes they have to put down their tools and grab their weapons and defend alongside the PvPers. More like a yeomanry (free farmers who also served in the militia).

Or better yet, have a carebear alt and a PvP main.

Either way.

As for AFK cloakers vs. non-active cloak cloakers, have some guys who are going to be afk undock in instacanes, warp to a POS and sit there. Now that cloaked guy, if he is there, has to wonder...are they afk? Are they active. If I de-cloak and go for this guy will they come kill me? Even if he is going to pop a covert cyno he has to wonder. Psychological warfare...it works both ways.

Or....

Have them jump 1 system over and wait. Send out the bait ship. Have the bait ship do something that makes him look like bait. If Mr. Cloaky uncloaks and engages, lights a covert cyno, whatever, have the cavalry jump back in and kill him...and if feasible pod him.

Really, it isn't that tough.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#131 - 2013-01-10 01:12:35 UTC
Nahkep Narmelion wrote:
To be fair, carebears can come to null. They can even carebear there. But, when the time comes they have to put down their tools and grab their weapons and defend alongside the PvPers. More like a yeomanry (free farmers who also served in the militia).

Or better yet, have a carebear alt and a PvP main.

Either way.

As for AFK cloakers vs. non-active cloak cloakers, have some guys who are going to be afk undock in instacanes, warp to a POS and sit there. Now that cloaked guy, if he is there, has to wonder...are they afk? Are they active. If I de-cloak and go for this guy will they come kill me? Even if he is going to pop a covert cyno he has to wonder. Psychological warfare...it works both ways.

Or....

Have them jump 1 system over and wait. Send out the bait ship. Have the bait ship do something that makes him look like bait. If Mr. Cloaky uncloaks and engages, lights a covert cyno, whatever, have the cavalry jump back in and kill him...and if feasible pod him.

Really, it isn't that tough.

I agree with this 100%. Bearing in null is fine so long as you also meet the other needs to be present. You detailed those in very reasonable terms as well.

I have also suggested proactive means such as this, pointing out how to combat tactics such as "AFK Cloaking".

Most either agree, or suggest that the cloaker has a titan and full battlegroup ready to be bridged over.

They might also win some lottery. But unless they play the game, they will never know.
Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#132 - 2013-01-10 20:42:45 UTC
Huijgen wrote:
people are being denied there right to play this nice game.


That makes no sense whatsoever. People can still play the game, they just need to be awake at the keyboard, rather than falling asleep while their mining ship chews on a big roid. Anyway: what's all this 'rights' stuff? Play it and live with the hassle or find an MMO that doesn't have grief.

Even WoW has the alliance being a pain to newb horde.

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.

Mikhael Taron
Four Winds Industry
#133 - 2013-01-10 20:48:32 UTC
As for the cloaky stuff... LEAVE IT AS IT IS.

Also: stop whining.

(c)2013 Man from Caldari

You can fool some of the people all of the time. You can fool all of the people some of the time. You can make a fool out of yourself anytime.