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Crime & Punishment

 
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James315 isnt going far enough

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Mira Robinson
#201 - 2013-01-12 05:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Robinson
Lin Suizei wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
No, I do not hate bot aspirant players. Because they are human players. Man hours is all I need to justify whatever a player is doing. AI hours are the ones that should be purged.

The way I knew they were either bots, or AFK, was they had not moved from their positions in 15 hours in the ice belt. An Orca surrounded by 3 hulks. No response to a PM request was all the proof I needed.


You still haven't answered the question - why do you dislike bots? What's wrong with botting, apart from "CCP said it's bad"?

If your answer is "nothing", and you support botting, that's your choice.

If you do have an answer, and you dislike botting, then it is only logical that you also hate the bot-aspirant, who behaves in almost exactly the same way as a bot, to the point that we cannot tell them apart - as evidenced by your description of the ships you spotted earlier as "either bots, or AFK" - that is, there is no way for a player to tell a bot-aspirant from a bot.


Quote:
Obviously, when a ATK miner spends 6 hours mining, that is 6 player hours. All that ore was rightfully gathered.
When a bot mines for 6 hours, that's 0 player hours.

So, if my math is right, one has a player spending 6 hours in Eve. The other has 0.

That's the difference, and that is why I will never criticize a bot aspirant, because they are at the keyboard, and not really a bot, playing however they want.


If you do not understand my position from what I wrote earlier, I will not elaborate further after this post.

I, and players like me, only want humans to play. We do not care how that human plays. That is where the logic of the carebears, and the logic of the New Order split.

So, once again, just to make our differences perfectly clear:
We merely demand that humans play.
The New Order wants to demand how those humans play.

That's the difference. That is why I will not adhere to New Order logic. I will absolutely acknowledge them and what they are doing in-game. Due to emergent gameplay, I must. But I will never respect it, in it's current form.

If my logic, and my position, is not made clear by now, then I am sorry. I will not try to put in any other way.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Wescro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#202 - 2013-01-12 15:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro
Mira, afk players significantly lower the immersion of Eve. Imagine a noobie warping in for the first time in to an ice belt. He is awestruck by the laser lightshow before him. His fellow ice miners have turned the ice field into a small mining village. He pokes the nearest fellow to be initiated in this community....and nothing! Oh right he is afk. He's not really a miner, or a capsuleer, or even in space. This is a human being who is probably so appalled by mining that they can't even bear to look at the screen. As a noobie miner, what does that make me? A sucker for coming here? Why am I even playing this game if all these other players aren't.

Eve is an MMO, but the AFK players make it seem like a single player offline game with lots of NPCs. Hell even the NPCs are programmed to mimic and role play humans, the afk players just litter my space with their absent presence. If it significantly lowers the quality of my game, then by going afk they are in fact dictating a playstyle to me.

http://crossingzebras.com/2013/02/17/csm8ripardteg/
Mira Robinson
#203 - 2013-01-12 15:58:54 UTC
Wescro wrote:
Mira, afk players significantly lower the immersion of Eve. Imagine a noobie warping in for the first time in to an ice belt. He is awestruck by the laser lightshow before him. His fellow ice miners have turned the ice field into a small mining village. He pokes the nearest fellow to be initiated in this community....and nothing! Oh right he is afk. He's not really a miner, or a capsuleer, or even in space. This is a human being who is probably so appalled by mining that they can't even bear to look at the screen. As a noobie miner, what does that make me? A sucker for coming here? Why am I even playing this game if all these other players aren't.

Eve is an MMO, but the AFK players make it seem like a single player offline game with lots of NPCs. Hell even the NPCs are programmed to mimic and role play humans, the afk players just litter my space with their absent presence. If it significantly lowers the quality of my game, then by going afk they are in fact dictating a playstyle to me.

I agree, wholeheartedly.

I would support the New Order if their campaign was solely against bots and AFK miners, as it appeared to be in the very beginning. But when James started throwing in 'bot-aspirants', I just got the feeling that he was now trying to dictate even how players at the keyboard play.

EVERY time I have lost a ship to another player, I have placed the blame solely on myself.

When I lost my first hauler making a long trip, it was because I was on auto-pilot.
I lost my first frigate, it was because I crossed into the frontier of lowsec.
When I lost my first Exhumer, it was because I did not at all understand the mechanics and life of nullsec and gatecamps.

But I am always ATK when mining, and I always watch local. I have never lost a barge or Exhumer in a belt. Ever.

I LOVE the immersion of Eve it's why I have unsubbed, but come back, four times since starting in Summer of 2009. I find it's universe, particularly it's lore, engaging, and mostly untapped. I am currently finding Templar One impossible to put down.

I would go so far as to put money on the New Order's campaign branching from a frustration of the...stagnation...of nullsec. I understand it's one of the most common complaints currently of the state of the game. It's on CCP to make players of ALL TYPES want to venture into lowsec and nullsec. I myself have currently gone back to scanning down wormholes because I want so badly to find (and mine) Mercoxit, but I have not been successful in either of those endeavors.

Should highsec be as rewarding as null? Absolutely not. Should the task of mining be a bit more engaging? Yes, I think that's been a criticism since the game has come out.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2013-01-12 16:14:21 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:

I would support the New Order if their campaign was solely against bots and AFK miners, as it appeared to be in the very beginning. But when James started throwing in 'bot-aspirants', I just got the feeling that he was now trying to dictate even how players at the keyboard play.

He's not trying to dictate how other players play. He's trying to show them that they are ultimately responsible for the inconveniences that befall them. If they're bumped or ganked as a result of being AFK, then they should have been paying attention. If they were bumped or ganked while being at the keyboard, then they should think about ways - using valid game mechanics available to them - to avoid future mishaps, instead of crying foul. Highsec is not meant to be a place of perfect safety, even though a lot of vocal miners seem to have assumed that it is.

Mira Robinson wrote:

EVERY time I have lost a ship to another player, I have placed the blame solely on myself.

When I lost my first hauler making a long trip, it was because I was on auto-pilot.
I lost my first frigate, it was because I crossed into the frontier of lowsec.
When I lost my first Exhumer, it was because I did not at all understand the mechanics and life of nullsec and gatecamps.

But I am always ATK when mining, and I always watch local. I have never lost a barge or Exhumer in a belt. Ever.

Congratulations, you are not in the demographic that we are trying to educate.
Mira Robinson
#205 - 2013-01-12 16:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Robinson
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
Congratulations, you are not in the demographic that we are trying to educate.


Still, I can't bring myself to support it.

Let me bring up Hulkageddon. Now that was a ganking event. It made me HATE Helicity Boson with the fire of a thousand suns. There was no half-assed, self-glorifying role-play behind it, it was just making the fields of New Eden burn.

But it was exciting. Thrilling. The fact that it could happen anywhere at anytime...it scared the pants off of me and which is what got me out of my Hulk and into a scanning ship during those summers.

IMO, that's how to run a ganking event / blog. Everywhere. High, low, null.

James' ego just...rubs me the wrong way. To me there won't ever be a Supreme Protector of Highsec.

I also don't get why he tells us where the N.O. is operating. Probably so he can write in his blog, like he did, how Local bombdives in the course of a few hours when N.O. enters the system.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2013-01-12 17:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alana Charen-Teng
Mira Robinson wrote:

James' ego just...rubs me the wrong way. To me there won't ever be a Supreme Protector of Highsec.

You need Sense of Humor trained to 5.
Mira Robinson
#207 - 2013-01-12 17:10:28 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:

James' ego just...rubs me the wrong way. To me there won't ever be a Supreme Protector of Highsec.

You need Sense of Humor trained to 5.

Good lord, you think I have that kind of time? Humor V is like...a year.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2013-01-12 17:47:51 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
Yep pretty much. Allow extortion or be killed.

The Highsec Mafia, capsuleers and gentlemen.

And just like in real life, by the time the police arrive, the damage is done, and the mayor (CCP) doesn't really care as long as they get re-elected.


Behold, ladies and gentlemen, the bot-aspirant. In his desire to not play EVE (AFK mine), he is unwilling to lift a finger to defend himself and fight back, and would rather cry ~extortion~ on the forums or wait for other people to do the heavy lifting. Fellow capsuleers, we cannot allow New Eden to belong to such machine-creatures.

Mira, with every word, you remind us of why we fight, and why we cannot stop until every highsec miner adheres strictly to the Code, or lies broken at the hands of the Knights.

I never said I was AFK mining.

I have never been successfully ganked in a belt.

The fact that you are not just targeting AFK miners, but also miners who do not buy a worthless permit, you are extorting them. That's not open for debate, that's the definition of the word, sweetheart.

I enjoy looking at the drama not only on here, but also over on MinerBumping. I would certainly be pro New Order if they were only targeting bots, but they are not. They are merely bored gankers who have nothing better to do than to shoot at players who cannot fight back. Whichever side wins, so do I, because I'm here for the drama.



If you wish to be an Agent, you decide how you want to help fight the bot aspirant way of Eve Life. You do not have to gank. You yourself can patrol ice fields bumping bots out and would be equally helpful.

Sorry to disappoint, but that is the key that ultimately turns me away from the New Order. I draw the line at bots.

Bot aspirants? Even James' blog was a bit vague on what constitutes that.

If a player wants to sit for hours on end staring at mining lasers, as long as they're at the keyboard, then go for it.

The system I was in (up til this morning) had an ice field, and there are several ships that I am absolutely confident are botting. Did I bump them for a few minutes? Yeah, for giggles. But I moved my operation because I felt it was getting a bit too crowded.



Before you moved out of the system you were doing the same thing Agents of the Code do. You don't need a fancy title to contribute.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2013-01-12 17:52:10 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:

That's the difference. That is why I will not adhere to New Order logic. I will absolutely acknowledge them and what they are doing in-game. Due to emergent gameplay, I must. But I will never respect it, in it's current form.

We are not looking for respect. We just want human, honest miners to be safe and profitable.

It is a thankless job.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2013-01-12 17:52:31 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
If a player wants to sit for hours on end staring at mining lasers, as long as they're at the keyboard, then go for it.


There is no difference between such a player and a bot. Let me propose for you the following thought experiment:

Disregarding the fact that botting is against the EULA (i.e. "CCP says so"), why do you disagree with botting? If you disagree with botting, then how can you agree with bot-aspirant gameplay - human gameplay which intends to mimic a bot as much as possible?

Now you're just being silly.

Obviously, when a ATK miner spends 6 hours mining, that is 6 player hours. All that ore was rightfully gathered.
When a bot mines for 6 hours, that's 0 player hours.

So, if my math is right, one has a player spending 6 hours in Eve. The other has 0.

That's the difference, and that is why I will never criticize a bot aspirant, because they are at the keyboard, and not really a bot, playing however they want.

You're just making an excuse to gank people. Give me a break; this is Eve, you don't NEED an excuse.

I've known about the New Order for 20 out of the 23 days I've been back in Eve. On Day 2 I pretty much surmised that it was ingenious trolling beneath a veil of simply terrible role-playing.



Bot-aspirant is the act of coming back to the keyboard to click once after their cycle or asteroid is complete, or their hold is filled. They aren't at the keyboard interacting with Eve. They also don't have a fancy line of code automating those clicks. Hence the apirant part, or aspiring to be a bot.

Since they aren't using a program to control their toon, therefore they are legal per the eula to do it, and that's fine per ccp. But it is not fine per the New Order, hence why we even have the Code to begin with.

So while you are right in comparing the 6 hours versus 0, you are wrong in your reason why you wouldn't criticize a bot aspirant. A bot aspirant is not at their keyboard interacting with Eve. They are doing something else and "checking in" every few minutes. I do applaud your choice of words to try to be specific and break it down to divide by lines, but really, it isn't needed. It really is quite simple.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Mira Robinson
#211 - 2013-01-12 18:01:21 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
If a player wants to sit for hours on end staring at mining lasers, as long as they're at the keyboard, then go for it.


There is no difference between such a player and a bot. Let me propose for you the following thought experiment:

Disregarding the fact that botting is against the EULA (i.e. "CCP says so"), why do you disagree with botting? If you disagree with botting, then how can you agree with bot-aspirant gameplay - human gameplay which intends to mimic a bot as much as possible?

Now you're just being silly.

Obviously, when a ATK miner spends 6 hours mining, that is 6 player hours. All that ore was rightfully gathered.
When a bot mines for 6 hours, that's 0 player hours.

So, if my math is right, one has a player spending 6 hours in Eve. The other has 0.

That's the difference, and that is why I will never criticize a bot aspirant, because they are at the keyboard, and not really a bot, playing however they want.

You're just making an excuse to gank people. Give me a break; this is Eve, you don't NEED an excuse.

I've known about the New Order for 20 out of the 23 days I've been back in Eve. On Day 2 I pretty much surmised that it was ingenious trolling beneath a veil of simply terrible role-playing.



Bot-aspirant is the act of coming back to the keyboard to click once after their cycle or asteroid is complete, or their hold is filled. They aren't at the keyboard interacting with Eve. They also don't have a fancy line of code automating those clicks. Hence the apirant part, or aspiring to be a bot.

Since they aren't using a program to control their toon, therefore they are legal per the eula to do it, and that's fine per ccp. But it is not fine per the New Order, hence why we even have the Code to begin with.

So while you are right in comparing the 6 hours versus 0, you are wrong in your reason why you wouldn't criticize a bot aspirant. A bot aspirant is not at their keyboard interacting with Eve. They are doing something else and "checking in" every few minutes. I do applaud your choice of words to try to be specific and break it down to divide by lines, but really, it isn't needed. It really is quite simple.

Alright, let's follow that.

I'm at the keyboard at all times. I respond in local and to bumps. I am, for all intents and purposes, a human miner.

Why do I have to pay for a 10M 'permit'?

And don't give me the "10m is nothing", I want to know why I have to give ISK to an organization that, because of my 100% ATK, has no impact on me whatsoever.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Mira Robinson
#212 - 2013-01-12 18:03:57 UTC
Quote:
If you wish to be an Agent, you decide how you want to help fight the bot aspirant way of Eve Life. You do not have to gank. You yourself can patrol ice fields bumping bots out and would be equally helpful.

Quote:
Sorry to disappoint, but that is the key that ultimately turns me away from the New Order. I draw the line at bots.

Bot aspirants? Even James' blog was a bit vague on what constitutes that.

If a player wants to sit for hours on end staring at mining lasers, as long as they're at the keyboard, then go for it.

The system I was in (up til this morning) had an ice field, and there are several ships that I am absolutely confident are botting. Did I bump them for a few minutes? Yeah, for giggles. But I moved my operation because I felt it was getting a bit too crowded.



Quote:
Before you moved out of the system you were doing the same thing Agents of the Code do. You don't need a fancy title to contribute.

I'm a Miner before a would-be Agent. I have no interest in Ice mining, and would rather be gathering ore before bumping.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Agent Trask
Doomheim
#213 - 2013-01-12 19:05:21 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:

I'm a Miner before a would-be Agent. I have no interest in Ice mining, and would rather be gathering ore before bumping.


Since you don't AFK mine, and leave when local gets crowded with red flashies, this is fairly irrelevant to you. You can even get a free one day permit by answering James' Questions Three.

Have some popcorn, and enjoy the light show.

Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.

www.minerbumping.com
Singular Snowflake
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2013-01-12 20:23:27 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:

Five Hulkageddons plus a 'permanent' one did nothing

Mira Robinson wrote:

Let me bring up Hulkageddon. Now that was a ganking event.

Perhaps you should post some more, you are not clearly getting the attention you deserve.
Lord Ovuld Feish
Doomheim
#215 - 2013-01-12 21:31:57 UTC
Singular Snowflake wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:

Five Hulkageddons plus a 'permanent' one did nothing

Mira Robinson wrote:

Let me bring up Hulkageddon. Now that was a ganking event.

Perhaps you should post some more, you are not clearly getting the attention you deserve.

I think she's pointing out that Hulkageddon was infinitely better than this pathetic charade.
Agent Trask
Doomheim
#216 - 2013-01-13 01:21:07 UTC
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:

I think she's pointing out that Hulkageddon was infinitely better than this pathetic charade.


We have no quarrel with honorable ganking PvP.

All hail Hulkageddon!

Join the New Order, buy your permit today, and follow the code.

www.minerbumping.com
Mira Robinson
#217 - 2013-01-13 01:23:48 UTC
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:
Singular Snowflake wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:

Five Hulkageddons plus a 'permanent' one did nothing

Mira Robinson wrote:

Let me bring up Hulkageddon. Now that was a ganking event.

Perhaps you should post some more, you are not clearly getting the attention you deserve.

I think she's pointing out that Hulkageddon was infinitely better than this pathetic charade.

Didn't Hulkageddon like...die after it went permanent?

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Dan Carter Murray
#218 - 2013-01-13 04:07:42 UTC
Sara Arran wrote:
I am a supporter of the New Order but i don't believe we are going far enough.

The afk mining mindset is instilled during the first few weeks in the game, once someone has become a miner they will stay that way. This disease must be nipped in the bud. I believe we must gank new players anywhere outside of noob systems.

Those who respond with the correct mindset should provided with ships, skillbooks, support etc and invited into right thinking corps...those who wish to continue mining have two choices, either join an approved corp with punitive tax rates to fund our reclamation of high sec or risk repeated ganking.

Only by starting early can we rid Eve of this menace.

Sara Arran


Sahtogas is infested with afk miners. please bring whatever you can to help stop them.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
the teddybear
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#219 - 2013-01-13 10:03:27 UTC
Never in my eve experience have i seen such wishy-washy flip-floppy bull- you "New Order" members are worse than a Mitt Romney suffering from a crack binge. Your antics are entirely deluded, you try to justify it with utter trash as an end, and honestly, not much of the "problem" has or will change. You can force newbies to conform to your way only so much, else they just leave the game forever which is against what your intentions are. You can't force change in a person, they will play how they want to.

My post anger you? too bad, suck it up and move along.
Lin Suizei
#220 - 2013-01-13 10:53:02 UTC
the teddybear wrote:
they will play how they want to.


Until their ship explodes l0l0l0l0l0l0l

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.