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Intergalactic Summit

 
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[-WHG-] Public Announcement

Author
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-01-12 07:02:42 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
By complying with these directives, what did WHG gain?


Duty is action without thought for material gain.

The SLT and CPD are lawful agencies of the State Executor and the Chief Executive Panel. As such, even as an SCC registered company, Wiyrkomi Honor Guard displays its firm commitment to its Duty to the Caldari State, its people, and the mandates of the State Executor and the CEP by submitting itself to the directives of the SLT and CPD even when it is not beholden to do so.


Kurilaivonen|Concern

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#42 - 2013-01-12 15:09:00 UTC
Aptly put, Gesakaarin-haani. The question is where what would WHG gain from noncompliance.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
#43 - 2013-01-12 16:39:03 UTC
I am most glad that the internal Audit did not find anything wrong Lord Tuulinen. I do sorta miss our verbal Sparring.

Not as innocent as she appears.™  

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2013-01-13 09:19:59 UTC
Misha M'Liena wrote:
I am most glad that the internal Audit did not find anything wrong Lord Tuulinen. I do sorta miss our verbal Sparring.


Ma'am, I have been informed that I can come out and play again. I'll be at The Summit most days, if you miss me.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ollie Rundle
#45 - 2013-01-13 16:21:13 UTC
Misha M'Liena wrote:
I am most glad that the internal Audit did not find anything wrong ...


You seem to have read a different summary report to me. My understanding was that the audit, for some at least, was still continuing.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#46 - 2013-01-13 16:57:01 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
lawful agencies

Any entity which signs a contract and abides by it is a lawful entity.

And I will rephrase the question:

What duty has WHG failed in that WHG's CEO and Board of Directors felt a personnel audit by the self-appointed arbitrators of Heiian, the SLT and the CPD, would absolve them of that failure?

Once upon a time, when a Caldari believed they had failed in or was unable to perform their duty, they would walk into the cold and relieve the community of the burden of supporting them. Even less than a decade ago, great captains who held to Heiian but failed in some duty would follow this tradition and accept exile to Mordu's Legion.

WHG's CEO, Board of Directors, and personnel are steeped enough in Heiian to know when they have failed in their duty, they shouldn't need someone else to tell them.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#47 - 2013-01-13 18:30:17 UTC
A very romantic way of seeing things, Nederland-haan.
So, are you saying that by not taking my hat I'm saying it's not a legitimate investigation, or are you saying that heiian should have me doing it myself rather than waiting for the CPD finding suitable cause?
Internal audits and investigations were always happening. The details of this particular investigation are not for public dissemination, but I can share that it was done on request of Wiyrkomi as follow-up on a prior case within WHG.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2013-01-13 18:48:37 UTC
In any case, surely the results of the audit should be posted before anyone considers going for a long talk with their ancestors?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#49 - 2013-01-13 19:44:09 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
A very romantic way of seeing things, Nederland-haan.
So, are you saying that by not taking my hat I'm saying it's not a legitimate investigation, or are you saying that Heiian should have me doing it myself rather than waiting for the CPD finding suitable cause?
Internal audits and investigations were always happening.


I am saying that Heiian would have us recognize when we have failed and that we then take it upon ourselves to do the right thing. That we acknowledge our failure to those we have wronged and those we have burdened. Then we correct that failing.

Looking through, I may have pictured the situation inaccurately - that you had brought in CPD & SLT auditors to interview and evaluate your personnel.

You are holding your personnel to regulations and directives wholly outside the control of Wiyrkomi and WHG. You are giving up corporate sovereignty so that you meet someone else's concept of Heiian.

Heiian is not like the Amarrian faith; it is between each individual and those that rely upon them.

I have always had concerns that the CPD and SLT twist it into something else.

Wei Soikutsu
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-01-13 19:58:02 UTC
It seems to me, then, that the Wiyrkomi Honor Guard's view of who to consider their kirjuun is simply broader than yours.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#51 - 2013-01-13 21:39:58 UTC
Well, just for the record I did try to get a copy of the full un-redacted report.

I haven't given hope just yet, greed is a wonderful motivator.

You would save me allot of trouble and money buy simply publishing it.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-01-14 01:29:54 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
You are holding your personnel to regulations and directives wholly outside the control of Wiyrkomi and WHG. You are giving up corporate sovereignty so that you meet someone else's concept of Heiian.


Are you implying that it is better not to seek compliance with the office of the State Executor, the SLT and CPD, in addition to the mandate of the Chief Executive Panel who have granted them lawful authority to implement their directives? That Heiian demands non-compliance with the Laws of the Caldari State? That Heiian does not prescribe obedience, service, and loyalty at all times -- but especially in a time of war?

Taking your example:

Why should a Wiyrkomi subsidiary seek to comply with the regulations and directives of Wiyrkomi in order to meet their concept of Heiian?

Why should a corporate citizen seek to comply with the regulations and directives of their employer in order to meet their concept of Heiian?

Why should a son or daughter seek to comply with the wishes of their parents in order to meet their concept of Heiian?

Without submission to the demands of the law and to rightful authority then there is only the chaos of disunity and disorder.

The CPD and SLT are lawful and rightful authorities so long as they remain extensions of the office of the State Executor as granted by the CEP. As such, meeting compliance with their directives is meeting compliance with the duties expected of a loyal citizen of the Caldari State.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#53 - 2013-01-14 02:27:24 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
...

That Heiian demands non-compliance with the Laws of the Caldari State? That Heiian does not prescribe obedience, service, and loyalty at all times -- but especially in a time of war?

...

Without submission to the demands of the law and to rightful authority then there is only the chaos of disunity and disorder.

The CPD and SLT are lawful and rightful authorities so long as they remain extensions of the office of the State Executor as granted by the CEP. As such, meeting compliance with their directives is meeting compliance with the duties expected of a loyal citizen of the Caldari State.

If we follow the example of Tibus Heth, then clearly there are times when Heiian demands non-compliance with the laws, regulations, and directives of the Caldari State.

He did not rise through a system of meritocracy to become the State's Executor. To the contrary, factory workers riot managed to crash Caldari Constructions stock value enabling a still anonymous benefactor to purchase a controlling stake in Caldari Constructions and appoint the humble factory worker riot leader as CEO.

Heiian may demand the overthrow of those who fail to adhere to it.

So, yes, there are times even when at war, when Heiian may demand non-compliance with the laws of the Caldari State.

Heiian goes both ways.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-01-14 03:06:10 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:

If we follow the example of Tibus Heth, then clearly there are times when Heiian demands non-compliance with the laws, regulations, and directives of the Caldari State.

He did not rise through a system of meritocracy to become the State's Executor. To the contrary, factory workers riot managed to crash Caldari Constructions stock value enabling a still anonymous benefactor to purchase a controlling stake in Caldari Constructions and appoint the humble factory worker riot leader as CEO.

Heiian may demand the overthrow of those who fail to adhere to it.

So, yes, there are times even when at war, when Heiian may demand non-compliance with the laws of the Caldari State.

Heiian goes both ways.


This does not change the fact that Heth-haan is the CEO of Kaalakiota Corporation, the State Executor of the CEP or that the SLT and CPD are agencies of the Executor.

Duty is a burden that is carried by all citizens, and one that must be held with the dignity, honor and respect it deserves. It is not a choice, except when one chooses to abandon it.

Make no mistake, I do not pledge allegiance to the individual but rather to the position that they hold. Since Heth-haan holds the Office of the State Executor then I am honor-bound to follow the diktats of that position. Anything less would be a failure of my duty and a gross act of disloyalty to the Caldari State.

This appears to be the position held by the majority of citizens, the Officers and soldiery of the Caldari Navy and Army, the Directorates of the Okusaikan, and the leaders of the Chief Executive Panel.

However, you appear to be implying the entirety of the Caldari State, its leaders, its armed forces and its institutions have all failed their duty and obligations to Heiian.

Are you implying you know it better than the leaders of the Caldari State and your fellow citizens?

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Misha M'Liena
Rui Freelance Mining
#55 - 2013-01-14 12:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Misha M'Liena
You know Ollie. That quoting me out of context is a poilticans tool. I was simply saying that i was glad that my friendly nemesis is ok.

Nothing more.

Misha.





Ps. Posting without coffee bad. Sorry dex i named wrong person. Owe you one.

Not as innocent as she appears.™  

Ollie Rundle
#56 - 2013-01-15 05:16:52 UTC
I quoted the part of your statement which was inaccurate. If it helps mend any offence caused you weren't the only one overlooking the WHG employees still under audit.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#57 - 2013-01-15 06:42:02 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
However, you appear to be implying the entirety of the Caldari State, its leaders, its armed forces and its institutions have all failed their duty and obligations to Heiian.

Are you implying you know it better than the leaders of the Caldari State and your fellow citizens?


I am stating that contrary to your portrayal, Heiian may require us to oppose those in positions of authority.
Solarienne
Hrimdraugar
#58 - 2013-01-15 09:05:14 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
However, you appear to be implying the entirety of the Caldari State, its leaders, its armed forces and its institutions have all failed their duty and obligations to Heiian.

Are you implying you know it better than the leaders of the Caldari State and your fellow citizens?


I am stating that contrary to your portrayal, Heiian may require us to oppose those in positions of authority.


If you mean '... when such individuals are proven or perceived by a majority of their peers to not be pursuing the corporate interests they allege to represent.' We are in agreement.

However the opposition of a moral, ethical and loyalty audit, requested by WHG and executed by it's own Commissariat to the standards (and with the oversight) of the CPD is not such a case. The CPD is not the Executor, but it is his instrument and administrative body in these areas, which to me means it carries the weight of the Executors presence and achievements. He may not have gained his position through the usual means of advancement through the executive ranks, but he is a celebrated war hero and icon to our people.

Simply put, an audit adhering to the values and oversight of such an organisation clearly falls into the realm of due diligence, there is no question as to their loyalty or performance in the State, for the State. Should the state of the warzone be a factor in such discussions, as a capsuleer led effort we have no one but ourselves to blame for any shortcomings there. The CPD via the State Protectorate represents the most realistic medium through which we capsuleers may benefit our culture and people, and until the CEP deems otherwise, this will continue to be the way of things.

PY-RE Combat Pilot

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-01-15 12:05:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Dex Nederland wrote:
I am stating that contrary to your portrayal, Heiian may require us to oppose those in positions of authority.


I would agree, but only in cases where those in positions of authority have failed in their duties.

Tell me, do you believe State Executor Heth, in leading the recapture of the Homeworld and erasing the dishonor of Malkalen and giving swift and effective response to the policies of containment in addition to economic and military rivalry the Federation had maintained against the State ever since President Harner failed in his duties?

Do you believe Executor Heth and the CPD reforms to ensure a closer alignment with the vision of Sobaseki and our forefathers who spilled their blood to grant us our freedom and independence to be in error?

Do you hold the position that many Federalists hold that the Executor is a position of tyranny and not a position of leadership to ensure effective command and control of the State through CEP members and or do you believe that it is maintained not through violence but through consent?

Do you believe the corporate leadership prior to Heth-haan fulfilled their positions and responsibilities to their people by allowing the State to enter into an economic recession and that Heth-haan has betrayed Heiian by opposing those in previous positions of authority for their failure?

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#60 - 2013-01-15 15:32:27 UTC
Quote:
Do you hold the position that many Federalists hold that the Executor is a position of tyranny and not a position of leadership to ensure effective command and control of the State through CEP members and or do you believe that it is maintained not through violence but through consent?

Neither and all positions of authority are maintained through the threat of violence, even if first established via consent.

Quote:
Do you believe Executor Heth and the CPD reforms to ensure a closer alignment with the vision of Sobaseki and our forefathers who spilled their blood to grant us our freedom and independence to be in error?

I think the reforms spurred by the meteoric rise to power of Heth-haan and the threat of further violence should the Directorates of the Okusaikan enabled many reforms that were sorely needed. However, in pursuing those reforms the CPD has often violated corporate sovereignty and caused damage to the very contract-law structure which maintains the State.

Quote:
Do you believe the corporate leadership prior to Heth-haan fulfilled their positions and responsibilities to their people by allowing the State to enter into an economic recession and that Heth-haan has betrayed Heiian by opposing those in previous positions of authority for their failure?

I think circumstances varied from corporation to corporation and that the level of economic recession was overplayed in the Scope's reports. That some executives had failed Heiian, I have no doubt. However, other than CC, Ytiri, and KK all of our CEOs and Boards of Directors have had normal change-overs or none at all. Lai Dai's CEO and Board of Directors remain.

Quote:
do you believe State Executor Heth, in leading the recapture of the Homeworld and erasing the dishonor of Malkalen and giving swift and effective response to the policies of containment in addition to economic and military rivalry the Federation had maintained against the State ever since President Harner failed in his duties?

I think the State got lucky in the liberation of Caldari Prime, but we find ourselves now facing the logistical nightmare our forefathers sought to avoid.

The dishonor of Malkalen is far from erased, but it cannot be erased merely through force of arms against an entire people.

I think the an effective response to the Federation policies of containment was demonstrated long ago. The State's influence throughout the cluster is incredible, including enabling the transformation of an entire Amarrian house into the Kingdom.

Economic and military rivalry is a good thing to have. Whether it is between the State and Federation, SuVee and KK, or LDIS and I-RED.


If you wish to put me on public trial for standing up for Heiian as I see it, say so now.