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"Make smaller better"
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Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#221 - 2013-01-03 12:30:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Numbers aren't everything.
(...)
The problems with null has nothing to do with raw numbers.


Yes and making them a bit less important wouldn't hurt alot and would open alot of possibilities.

Since you belong to such a leviathan coporation/alliance/coalition in null numbers aren't your problem. But if you look from the opposite direction numbers are a problem within SOV.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

In EvE you have a linear scaling so you are just better add more and more bodies so the blob is not just "supported" but the obvious choice to go.


True and that needs a change.

Lord Zim wrote:

You want to change conquerable nullsec? Sure, make it preferable to build, mine and rat there compared to hisec, make the sov mechanics suck less (...)

Want to make other changes? Want to make it so ever increasing gang sizes yield diminishing returns, go right ahead, as long as you do it in a non-******** manner.


The possibilities for mining, industry, ratting and everything else should scale in the right way with highsec. There is nothing wrong to earn more in Null since you'll more likely to lose a ship or other expensive hardware. Null needs every aspect of EVE playable and workable.

Lord Zim wrote:

Coming up with ideas which are trying to make it so f.ex a 50 man gang should automatically bitchslap a 255 man gang just because "they're fewer", however, is bad. In fact, it's one of those ideas I like to categorize as "make your face meet a frying pan" ideas, they're usually that bad and dumb.


It shouldn't be that way (no i win buttons). Thought once smaller entities are able to get and hold SOV independently they also need a way defend it with alot of effort even against larger numbers.

Lord Zim wrote:

Last I checked, a smaller, but much better prepared and skilled gang already does wipe the floor with a bigger gang of less skilled and worse fit fleets.

The example of Rooks&Kings was made. But do you really expect a newcommer to SOV Null to have all skills, tactics and so on ready? I think not. They need to learn, aye. But they need to have a chance else they will try it and leave it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#222 - 2013-01-03 12:37:54 UTC
Miri Amatonur wrote:
The example of Rooks&Kings was made. But do you really expect a newcommer to SOV Null to have all skills, tactics and so on ready? I think not. They need to learn, aye. But they need to have a chance else they will try it and leave it.

At what point do we stop making exceptions for lack of proficiency, skills, organization, etc?
Pretty soon you'll have sections of nullsec featured in the tutorials where newbies can take sov with their rookie ships.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#223 - 2013-01-03 12:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cameron Cahill
Miri Amatonur wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Miri Amatonur wrote:
The current system favours large numbers of players within super corporations/alliances/coalitions. It doesn't have to stay that way.

So how do you suppose we magically eliminate the basic tactical axiom that superior numbers generally mean a stronger force, other things being equal?

Ah yes, numbers always win? That isn't true. Persian Wars, Battle of Agincourt and so on
Superior numbers can be circumvented in the real world. In EVE that is extremly hard to impossible, especially with SOV warfare.


Bolded the important part for you. You are not Gerard Butler and your little highsec corp are not spartans, no matter how much you want to be.

Miri Amatonur wrote:

Basic common sense? Is EVE a real world simulation with all physical, economical, social and so on laws? No it isn't.
It's a sandbox game with certain rules, which were made by CCP. It was CCP who created these mechanics. It's common sense to modify these game mechanics so CCP can make more profit.


Firstly its a metaphor you moron, secondly what you've done is just quoted a real life example and then said real life examples don't work. In the same post. :Facepalm:. Finally why should ccp make mechanics for you to win? Did Leonidus cry to the great devs in the sky to 'nurf dem persians they're blobbing me!!!!1!!' and stay in his palace because 'didn't want that Greece anyway?' or did he go and just fight them?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2013-01-03 13:00:13 UTC
Miri Amatonur wrote:
Since you belong to such a leviathan coporation/alliance/coalition in null numbers aren't your problem. But if you look from the opposite direction numbers are a problem within SOV.

Because the sov system sucks bags of dicks, yes. As has been said earlier, systems need to be easier to lose and harder to defend than in Dominion, and while this both helps and hurts smaller alliances, it'll help them more than it'll hurt them in the long run.

Miri Amatonur wrote:
The possibilities for mining, industry, ratting and everything else should scale in the right way with highsec. There is nothing wrong to earn more in Null since you'll more likely to lose a ship or other expensive hardware. Null needs every aspect of EVE playable and workable.

In fact, nullsec should be the preferred go-to place to make money, ships etc, and hisec should be for either the more casual players which have a very limited time to play, or those who are too afraid of the big evil PVP outside of hisec. Currently, this is not the case.

Miri Amatonur wrote:
It shouldn't be that way (no i win buttons). Thought once smaller entities are able to get and hold SOV independently they also need a way defend it with alot of effort even against larger numbers.

No, this is incorrect. Being smaller doesn't work anywhere, unless you've got either a serious skill advantage, equipment advantage, or both. If you're a small alliance which is able to reliably out-strategize and outmaneuver your foe, great for you, what you're doing in this instance works. However, if a larger alliance decides that you shall be evicted, and your skill, equipment and numbers are insufficient, you shall be thrown out on your ass. No ifs, ands or buts.

This works the other way as well, if a larger alliance is hit on 2 fronts by two smaller alliances, and they're not good enough at defending both fronts, they shall be forced to reduce their holdings until they are able to defend both fronts. Today's sov system sets the bar for this aspect way too high, which means it's way too easy to keep and defend tons of space, and this must change.

Miri Amatonur wrote:
The example of Rooks&Kings was made. But do you really expect a newcommer to SOV Null to have all skills, tactics and so on ready? I think not. They need to learn, aye. But they need to have a chance else they will try it and leave it.

There are tons of ways to learn how to do things, jumping into the best space in the game and taking on the biggest coalition in the game isn't one of those ways, however. You go to lowsec or shittier nullsec, gradually stretch your legs and learn which procedures etc you need to develop within your own organization, and gradually take on more and more difficult opponents.

You'll probably find that throwing large amounts of bodies at a foe, while important, isn't the main source of headache in the long run.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#225 - 2013-01-03 14:26:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

lol what do they compete at, who can be the last active account on the server?


... said by someone playing a game whose full online playerbase outside top prime time is 25,000...




EVE's the second largest paid western MMO, and the only one that hasn't experienced a massive numbers crash (2012 has cost WOW about 20% of its subs).

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Which non-FTP "competitive PvP MMO" do you play that has more?

You always allude to these other, better, more successful games you play, but you never name them or indicate just how successful they are.


Also, the average PCU of TQ is 32,000 now. That's a lot more useful than the minimum PCU.
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Miri Amatonur
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-01-03 14:38:51 UTC
Cameron Cahill wrote:
(...)
Bolded the important part for you. You are not Gerard Butler and your little highsec corp are not spartans, no matter how much you want to be.
(...)
Firstly its a metaphor you moron, secondly what you've done is just quoted a real life example and then said real life examples don't work. In the same post. :Facepalm:. Finally why should ccp make mechanics for you to win? Did Leonidus cry to the great devs in the sky to 'nurf dem persians they're blobbing me!!!!1!!' and stay in his palace because 'didn't want that Greece anyway?' or did he go and just fight them?


Sir you made me laugh. Lol

The Persian Wars are more than the battle at thermopylae. Thought the outnumbered Greek city states repelled the invasions of the far more powerful Persians.

Btw. i'm sure Leonidas and his host prayed to their gods alot while they were at Thermopylae.

All i do is cry to my "gods", the devs of EVE, in the very same way: Give me the means to vanquish my enemies! Smile

The rest of that. As you may have noticed or not i had a discussion in 2 different spheres. The one were the real world the other the simiplified, contrieved world of EVE.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#227 - 2013-01-03 14:41:52 UTC
Miri Amatonur wrote:
Yes and making them a bit less important wouldn't hurt alot and would open alot of possibilities.

Since you belong to such a leviathan coporation/alliance/coalition in null numbers aren't your problem. But if you look from the opposite direction numbers are a problem within SOV.


Take a Scrub BS fleet and pit it against a much smaller AHAC fleet. The AHACs will wipe the floor with it. Take a Random T1 Cruiser fleet and pit it against a much smaller Rokh fleet, and the Rokhs will tear them apart.

The reason numbers seem to have so much of an advantage over everything else is that those numbers are being used with the same amount (or more) finesse than the smaller fleets. In other words, the smaller groups, despite claiming to be "elite" are no better at fitting, flying, or fighting in their ships than the larger groups.

So, once again, since you keep dodging the question, all else being equal, why should a 100 man group have any good chance at beating a 1000 man group?

Quote:
It shouldn't be that way (no i win buttons). Thought once smaller entities are able to get and hold SOV independently they also need a way defend it with alot of effort even against larger numbers.


So why should the smaller entities be able to evict larger entities who are just as organized, just as good at fighting, and put in just as much effort to defend their space as those smaller entities?

Quote:
The example of Rooks&Kings was made. But do you really expect a newcommer to SOV Null to have all skills, tactics and so on ready? I think not. They need to learn, aye. But they need to have a chance else they will try it and leave it.


They do have a chance to learn. In the shittier parts of Sov Null, like they've always gone to. You don't come onto the Mediterranean scene fresh and expect to take land from the Romans (pre-collapsy Roman empire) as your first conquest.

That's why you learn in LS, Providence, NPC Null, etc. Here's a project for an up and coming Sov taker. Take Providence from the ProviBlock. They'll show you that numbers aren't everything because they're still running random BSes/Cruisers instead of disciplined, organized fleets. They survive because it's too much of a pain in the ass for the larger groups to kick them out, and when someone does kick them out, Provi really isn't worth keeping if you have any other options.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#228 - 2013-01-03 14:50:52 UTC
Miri Amatonur wrote:
Sir you made me laugh. Lol

The Persian Wars are more than the battle at thermopylae. Thought the outnumbered Greek city states repelled the invasions of the far more powerful Persians.

Btw. i'm sure Leonidas and his host prayed to their gods alot while they were at Thermopylae.

All i do is cry to my "gods", the devs of EVE, in the very same way: Give me the means to vanquish my enemies! Smile

The rest of that. As you may have noticed or not i had a discussion in 2 different spheres. The one were the real world the other the simiplified, contrieved world of EVE.



Sounds like someone believes Herodotus's accounts of the size of the Persian armies.

Battle of Plataea: Modern consensus, 80k vs 70-120k.
Battle of Mycale: Modern consensus, 40k vs 60k.


Moreover, the Greeks were using the equivalent of AHACS (Hoplites in a Phalanx) against the Persian scrub BS fleet (differently trained, differently armed light infantry from all over the Persian Empire). In EVE, using heavily outnumbered AHACs against a Scrub BS fleet is really effective, and will usually win the battle.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2013-01-03 14:53:33 UTC
Miri Amatonur wrote:
All i do is cry to my "gods", the devs of EVE, in the very same way: Give me the means to vanquish my enemies! Smile

The only thing you should be crying to your "gods" about, then, would be the sov system, since that's the main mechanical hurdle inherent in the system.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#230 - 2013-01-03 17:43:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Miri Amatonur wrote:
All i do is cry to my "gods", the devs of EVE, in the very same way: Give me the means to vanquish my enemies! Smile

The only thing you should be crying to your "gods" about, then, would be the sov system, since that's the main mechanical hurdle inherent in the system.

Make evil goonies unable to hold sov.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2013-01-03 18:05:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Miri Amatonur wrote:
All i do is cry to my "gods", the devs of EVE, in the very same way: Give me the means to vanquish my enemies! Smile

The only thing you should be crying to your "gods" about, then, would be the sov system, since that's the main mechanical hurdle inherent in the system.

Make evil goonies unable to hold sov.


Nah, not unable, but work your asses off for the amount of space that is being held :D

Knowing your reputation though I would almost think that you'd be the only ones who would actually be able to pull it off too.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2013-01-03 18:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
yeah cool, space that 9-11 thousand people can't be bothered to hold sounds real appealing for smaller alliances to move into

how many hundreds of millions per month + billions in infrastructure investment should it cost to hold a system with -0.01 truesec, 2 belts, 1 station with gimped manufacturing, refining and no missions before the newbies come running into take it for themselves, in your opinion? I mean in between costs incurred by defending their space against the 30k+ alliance because hey just because they don't want the space means they're going to let you live there either, right?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#233 - 2013-01-03 18:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah cool, space that 9-11 thousand people can't be bothered to hold sounds real appealing for smaller alliances to move into

how many hundreds of millions per month should it cost to hold a system with -0.01 truesec, 1 station with gimped manufacturing, refining and no missions before the newbies come running into take it for themselves, in your opinion?

About three hundred million every month should be doable by newbies.

They may need to mine a lot on highsec though, because of the cloaky campers. Normally though, I wouldn't imagine they would be able to take a station system due to ~grinding structures~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2013-01-03 18:58:20 UTC
no cloaky camping keeps the BLOB ALLIANCES in check and BALANCED

newbie alliances have supercap fleets and hundreds of disposable alts, right?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#235 - 2013-01-03 18:59:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
no cloaky camping keeps the BLOB ALLIANCES in check and BALANCED

newbie alliances have supercap fleets and hundreds of disposable alts, right?

Yeah, I was about to ask how many supercapitals they had. Or at the very least they should be able to muster a fleet of slowcats.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#236 - 2013-01-03 19:19:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah cool, space that 9-11 thousand people can't be bothered to hold sounds real appealing for smaller alliances to move into

how many hundreds of millions per month + billions in infrastructure investment should it cost to hold a system with -0.01 truesec, 2 belts, 1 station with gimped manufacturing, refining and no missions before the newbies come running into take it for themselves, in your opinion? I mean in between costs incurred by defending their space against the 30k+ alliance because hey just because they don't want the space means they're going to let you live there either, right?


It seems to work OK for CVA and the rest of ProviBlock.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#237 - 2013-01-03 19:34:23 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah cool, space that 9-11 thousand people can't be bothered to hold sounds real appealing for smaller alliances to move into

how many hundreds of millions per month + billions in infrastructure investment should it cost to hold a system with -0.01 truesec, 2 belts, 1 station with gimped manufacturing, refining and no missions before the newbies come running into take it for themselves, in your opinion? I mean in between costs incurred by defending their space against the 30k+ alliance because hey just because they don't want the space means they're going to let you live there either, right?


It seems to work OK for CVA and the rest of ProviBlock.

Yeah they have really REALLY bad sov no one really wants and don't seem to annoy other people enough.

If they were all like you don't talk back to us and we don't forgive, things would be different.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2013-01-03 19:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Providence is like the shire of the middle earth that is nullsec
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-01-03 19:37:28 UTC
Quick, someone put a ring in an envelope in the shire.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#240 - 2013-01-03 20:04:44 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Quick, someone put a ring technetium in an envelope in the space shire.


FYP

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon