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"Make smaller better"
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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-29 05:29:27 UTC
One thing I read a lot on these forums is people complaining that nullsec sucks because small groups are at a disadvantage to larger groups in combat merely because of size. Now ignoring the fact that there are ways to mitigate this, I'm curious about a few things.

You say that larger groups should not have an advantage over smaller groups by virtue of their size. First of all, this is not something you can just change because it's basic tactics that larger groups generally overpower smaller ones. This is not some variable CCP developers can go into the code and set "smallerFleetsHaveAdvantage=1;".

Furthermore, even if they could somehow force a mechanic to nullify the advantage that larger groups have over smaller ones in combat, why SHOULD they? That's basically sending a message that "we don't want you to cooperate in large groups, smaller groups are better." Where would they draw the line, anyway? Who's to decide what size of a group is "good" and what size is "bad"?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#2 - 2012-12-29 05:34:31 UTC
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-12-29 05:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Why does CCP even need to get involved?

I've seen plenty of small groups and even solo'ers do fine in null without needing CCP to step in (UK campaign in CVA space, 'nuff said). They fit these things called cloaks and actually avoid fighting the mega-blobs/camps sent after them and occassionally get kills on unwary lone or small grouped targets. There was even a nice article somewhere (wish I could find it) about how to live in enemy space with deployable containers, cloakies and cyno'd haulers to bring stuff in.

Then there's wormholes giving you the potential to make a quick run into somebody's unused backyard system to rat up a few dozen mil and pop back home before anyone figures out you're there, if they ever do, since unless you're spotted in local and reported they'll probably think you're one of their own ratters on DOTLAN.

Otherwise, expecting to be able to take and hold a static objective from 500+ guys with 1-5 people is just silly.
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#4 - 2012-12-29 05:38:46 UTC
A properly organised group should always be more successful with higher numbers.

Smaller fleets are easier to manage and can be successful too, just with different goals. When faced with a bigger threat, usually people will tend to use more nimble ships or cloaks.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-12-29 05:38:59 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


This is actually one of the less horrible suggestions I've ever seen along these lines. It might actually even be good, I'm not sure.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-29 05:53:47 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


What would stop people from forming 10 small fleets of 5 people instead of one big 50 man fleet?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-12-29 05:53:49 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


This is actually one of the less horrible suggestions I've ever seen along these lines. It might actually even be good, I'm not sure.


The problem immediately is blobs within large alliances just splitting up their main fleets into smaller fleets so everyone gets the max benefit with only slightly more communication effort though comms.

Unless it can be dictated by amount of friendlies on grid if and when they get rid of off grid boosting.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#8 - 2012-12-29 05:55:28 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


You. I like you. You have a lore angle, you have a crunch angle and you admit that these are air numbers. I wish there were more people like you.
Luanda Heartbreaker
#9 - 2012-12-29 05:57:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
One thing I read a lot on these forums is people complaining that nullsec sucks because small groups are at a disadvantage to larger groups in combat merely because of size. Now ignoring the fact that there are ways to mitigate this, I'm curious about a few things.

You say that larger groups should not have an advantage over smaller groups by virtue of their size. First of all, this is not something you can just change because it's basic tactics that larger groups generally overpower smaller ones. This is not some variable CCP developers can go into the code and set "smallerFleetsHaveAdvantage=1;".

Furthermore, even if they could somehow force a mechanic to nullify the advantage that larger groups have over smaller ones in combat, why SHOULD they? That's basically sending a message that "we don't want you to cooperate in large groups, smaller groups are better." Where would they draw the line, anyway? Who's to decide what size of a group is "good" and what size is "bad"?


you take the wrong side of the question...

we live in null and quite successful in small numbers, my ceptor alt was active for like 2 days in delve and killed 20 goon test razor pilot while lost an empty travel frig only, nothing in combat. the problem is, they still won the war. nobody will ever be able to compete with those, so there are 2 choices, lick an ass or leave. i can go there alone and live and get plenty of kills, but i cant build a stable background to start my roams from and earn my isk to buy and fit my ships, you can just live there, while they want you to live there, cos if that fleet start to move, you have no any chance to stop it... especially if they have unlimited range to hotdrop anywhere in the universe
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-29 05:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
The value of in-fleet broadcasts for target calling, anchor setting, remote repping, etc. is significant, and so splitting a fleet up could actually put you at a disadvantage. Depends on the break-points, basically, and how severe the penalty would be for increasingly large fleets.

Some number crunching would be necessary to figure out if it'd actually be a good idea or not. But it's got more potential than most suggestions I've seen.

Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:


you take the wrong side of the question...

we live in null and quite successful in small numbers, my ceptor alt was active for like 2 days in delve and killed 20 goon test razor pilot while lost an empty travel frig only, nothing in combat. the problem is, they still won the war. nobody will ever be able to compete with those, so there are 2 choices, lick an ass or leave. i can go there alone and live and get plenty of kills, but i cant build a stable background to start my roams from and earn my isk to buy and fit my ships, you can just live there, while they want you to live there, cos if that fleet start to move, you have no any chance to stop it... especially if they have unlimited range to hotdrop anywhere in the universe

You seem to be saying that you, as an individual, should be able to live amongst and compete against those who have chosen to live and work cooperatively. To be able to, as an individual, have the impact of an opposing corp or alliance, without having to actually be in one.

Sorry you think this is a single player game?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-12-29 06:00:30 UTC
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
we live in null and quite successful in small numbers, my ceptor alt was active for like 2 days in delve and killed 20 goon test razor pilot while lost an empty travel frig only, nothing in combat. the problem is, they still won the war. nobody will ever be able to compete with those


Okay. So what's wrong with that?

Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
so there are 2 choices, lick an ass or leave. i can go there alone and live and get plenty of kills, but i cant build a stable background to start my roams from and earn my isk to buy and fit my ships

Sure you can. It's called NPC nullsec.

Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
you can just live there, while they want you to live there, cos if that fleet start to move, you have no any chance to stop it... especially if they have unlimited range to hotdrop anywhere in the universe

Do you have any idea how many jumps a carrier to get from Tenal to Cobalt Edge? These are neighboring regions, mind you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Torakenat
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-12-29 06:12:29 UTC
Only thing scarrier than a well disciplined organized small group is a well disciplined organized swarm.

There should be no mechanics to support smaller fleets over larger fleets.

If you can organize a large fleet and keep them disciplined and well organized you should be able to reap the rewards. Regardless, if your targets are in large numbers or small.

You can't penalized imergent play just because you don't want to adapt. If everyone around you is adapting to circumstance to best you, and you fail to adapt and overcome you deserve to be fodder that feeds the machine.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-29 06:18:13 UTC
mynnna wrote:
The value of in-fleet broadcasts for target calling, anchor setting, remote repping, etc. is significant, and so splitting a fleet up could actually put you at a disadvantage. Depends on the break-points, basically, and how severe the penalty would be for increasingly large fleets.

Some number crunching would be necessary to figure out if it'd actually be a good idea or not. But it's got more potential than most suggestions I've seen.

Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:


you take the wrong side of the question...

we live in null and quite successful in small numbers, my ceptor alt was active for like 2 days in delve and killed 20 goon test razor pilot while lost an empty travel frig only, nothing in combat. the problem is, they still won the war. nobody will ever be able to compete with those, so there are 2 choices, lick an ass or leave. i can go there alone and live and get plenty of kills, but i cant build a stable background to start my roams from and earn my isk to buy and fit my ships, you can just live there, while they want you to live there, cos if that fleet start to move, you have no any chance to stop it... especially if they have unlimited range to hotdrop anywhere in the universe

You seem to be saying that you, as an individual, should be able to live amongst and compete against those who have chosen to live and work cooperatively. To be able to, as an individual, have the impact of an opposing corp or alliance, without having to actually be in one.

Sorry you think this is a single player game?


I have a hard time seeing how you would make a system that scales from solo to fleet pvp, without giving the large groups easy exploitable options. If it was possible to make a system that could nullify the advantage of numbers, it would also make pvp a lot more predictable and most likely more boring.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#14 - 2012-12-29 06:19:53 UTC
Torakenat wrote:
Only thing scarrier than a well disciplined organized small group is a well disciplined organized swarm......

you fail to adapt and overcome you deserve to be fodder that feeds the machine.

Goonswarm Federation, making wrecks out of your (small) hopes and dreams.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-12-29 06:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
dexington wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


What would stop people from forming 10 small fleets of 5 people instead of one big 50 man fleet?


Organization of that many small fleets is actually a giant pain in the ass.

EDIT: I'm going to go ahead and come at this from a different direction and say honestly small gang isn't dead, it isn't broken, and most of the people complaining about it just aren't any good.

I'm living on the doorstep of another space empire right now, with about 15 of my good friends. The rest of the swarm does not have my back on this because I'm so far out in bat country. Yet day in, day out we manage to do a ton of damage to an organization that could honestly shut us down with 200 man fleets if they so chose to do so.

No we won't fight them 1v1. We'll bomb them. We'll kill their stragglers. We'll watch their fleet warp off of a station and drop a stop bubble right as the last two are entering warp just so we can kill them while the rest of their fleet watches.

People just need to stop being so abjectly horrible at this game that they expect kills to just fly at their screen while they are performing tasks no more complex than mining.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#16 - 2012-12-29 06:21:01 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
dexington wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, but I'll take a stab: Change boosting mechanics to include a "law of diminishing returns" so that boosts give out more bonus to smaller fleets and less boost to larger ones.

So, say, a 10% boost could just up to 20% if the fleet is 5 people or less, or drop to only 5% if the fleet is over 20 people. Just an example. You get the idea. Realistically it would have to be scaled with more complex math (and I hate math, so you do it).

Justification would be simulating that it's easier to manage smaller groups than larger ones. Less strain on computers etc.


What would stop people from forming 10 small fleets of 5 people instead of one big 50 man fleet?


Organization of that many small fleets is actually a giant pain in the ass.

We could have so many places for the newbie FCs though. Would sure help a lot for them to get started using the whole command channel to coordinate and if they welp, it's just 5 T1 cruisers ~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-12-29 06:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
dexington wrote:


I have a hard time seeing how you would make a system that scales from solo to fleet pvp, without giving the large groups easy exploitable options. If it was possible to make a system that could nullify the advantage of numbers, it would also make pvp a lot more predictable and most likely more boring.



It's not trying to nullify the advantage of numbers, though, or rather not overtly. 200 pilots receiving a 50% boost (indeed, any boost at all) is still a larger overall boost than (say) 100 pilots receiving a 100% boost.

It's an element that other suggestions along those lines should have. Something like that suggestion is good. "Put SBUs in deadspaces that only let 50 pilots from the sovereignty holder in" or something along those lines is bad. Big difference in the style of suggestion. Whether "make smaller better" should happen at all is a separate consideration - if people want it to happen, suggestions along those lines should be sane.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Umega
Solis Mensa
#18 - 2012-12-29 06:31:33 UTC
Quote:
If you can organize a large fleet and keep them disciplined and well organized you should be able to reap the rewards. Regardless, if your targets are in large numbers or small.


^

There really shouldn't be a specialized mechanic, built for the sole purpose to favor the weaker.. let's not beat around the bush. People asking for a 'fix' to the supposed numbers problem are admitting that they are inferior and weaker than their enemy, and they need help to fix Their problem.

Honestly.. that's some tough ****. Oh well. And if anyone wishes to believe that some sort 'boost', fleet numbers penality/buff is going to fix anything is blind to the idea that the larger, more powerful entity is going to adapt and use it to their advantage as well.

The mechanics implemented need to be balanced, but in the hands of the fewer.. can be used to their advantage if they are smart enough, and actually imploy viable tactics and strategy. Yeah, I'm going to say the E word.. they need to put forth EFFORT. Quit the cries for easy-mode buttons. Want more, do more. Failure to realize the amount of effort to maintain a large entity and keep it running full team ahead with good moral.. are again, Failures. Don't let jaded eyes make you blind, and thus Fail.

On-grid boosting.

Delayed local.

If you can't figure it out.. there is a reason why some people consistantly win, and others do not. Oh well.

DOWN WITH FOOD STAMPS!

 Ume-Pro Studios
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#19 - 2012-12-29 06:32:25 UTC
mynnna wrote:
dexington wrote:
I have a hard time seeing how you would make a system that scales from solo to fleet pvp, without giving the large groups easy exploitable options. If it was possible to make a system that could nullify the advantage of numbers, it would also make pvp a lot more predictable and most likely more boring.

It's not trying to nullify the advantage of numbers, though, or rather not overtly. 200 pilots receiving a 50% boost (indeed, any boost at all) is still a larger overall boost than (say) 100 pilots receiving a 100% boost.

It's an element that other suggestions along those lines should have. Something like that suggestion is good. "Put SBUs in deadspaces that only let 50 pilots from the sovereignty holder in" or something along those lines is bad. Big difference in the style of suggestion.

50 Titans ^___^

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Luanda Heartbreaker
#20 - 2012-12-29 06:47:42 UTC

Torakenat wrote:
Only thing scarrier than a well disciplined organized small group is a well disciplined organized swarm.

There should be no mechanics to support smaller fleets over larger fleets.

If you can organize a large fleet and keep them disciplined and well organized you should be able to reap the rewards. Regardless, if your targets are in large numbers or small.

You can't penalized imergent play just because you don't want to adapt. If everyone around you is adapting to circumstance to best you, and you fail to adapt and overcome you deserve to be fodder that feeds the machine.


yes, and when all those who dont want from this, stay in the safe highsec, you come to cry to nerf it :) if you want ppl to play with you, make a mechanism let them enjoy it

mynnna wrote:


You seem to be saying that you, as an individual, should be able to live amongst and compete against those who have chosen to live and work cooperatively. To be able to, as an individual, have the impact of an opposing corp or alliance, without having to actually be in one.

Sorry you think this is a single player game?


nope, we still live there, well moved a couple of times but we are still there and we will be there, the problem is, that you are able to build something scare away everybody, and then you complain nobody goes there. you try to find solutions how to attract ppl to move there, even if they dont want to join you, with keeping the freedom of destroying anything you pick, without any barrier. with this basically you keep yourself out of game.
in a small alliance i have plenty of targets, while you suck and the only fun for the mob to go and burn jita (read: kill newbs, miners and freighters) and cry that you cant wardec npc corps.

but still not this is the biggest problem. while you can grind a ship for every gooner, many small alliances, especially who doesnt have access to 0.0 and cant grind billions every day, doesnt have the cash to pay their losses. while in other MMO-s these is a way of 1v1 or group v group challange (like alliance tournament, just anytime you can find an opponent), in eve there are no limits on pvp and you can backstab the opponent, and while in the other MMO-s you might lose stat, in eve you lose cash on every loss. when you have abundant reasourches you cant feel it, but when you are limited... you will just stay docked in an npc corp on a highsec station...
maybe the other MMO-s are less realistic, but gives more opportunity to the person. (one solution can be if wardec goes live only if both side accept it, or stop player stations and sov-s but make npc stations are upgradable, no sov, territory is clamed if you claim the npc station, but the npc will take it back as soon as you dont use it, better stations need more activity to keep for urself, etc...)

this way, we can fight in small groups and you simply have no intention to swarm us, or we just wait docked while u move on and take back the stations. atm you claim a system, put an alarm there and if any goes there you just open a titanbridge for the 4k drakes and problems solved
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