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Nerf unbonused TDs
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Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-27 21:29:58 UTC
The recent nerf to TDs was way to subtle. These are my last 3 kills.........
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15668966
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15668963
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15669436

And then I died to a hookbill..........with a TD.................
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15669804

I know some of you will say, "well you won didn't you?" Well yes I did but only because I'm flying an oddball fit and honestly the last one should have won but made some really strange piloting errors. Any standard turret fit ship wouldn't have a chance. These TD fits are beatable, but only by a small percentage of fits and that's why everyone is flying them. Welcome to FW, don't forget your TD............
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-27 21:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
TDs aren't THAT overpowered. The balancing trick is that they are completely useless against missile boats. I wouldn't be opposed to another small nerf (5%), but on the whole they're relatively well balanced. You're not going to see any further changes to TDs until CCP decides whether they're making TEs and TCs affect missiles.

I also prefer TD's current situation to something like ECM--completely useless on unbonused ships, and completely awesome on bonused ships.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-12-27 21:35:38 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:

Then again, I prefer TD's current situation to something like ECM--completely useless on unbonused ships, and completely awesome on bonused ships.


Yes I agree.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2012-12-27 21:37:40 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
The recent nerf to TDs was way to subtle. These are my last 3 kills.........
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15668966
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15668963
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15669436

And then I died to a hookbill..........with a TD.................
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15669804

I know some of you will say, "well you won didn't you?" Well yes I did but only because I'm flying an oddball fit and honestly the last one should have won but made some really strange piloting errors. Any standard turret fit ship wouldn't have a chance. These TD fits are beatable, but only by a small percentage of fits and that's why everyone is flying them. Welcome to FW, don't forget your TD............


I feel your pain, but the natural solution to this problem is to use a missile ship, get closer, or pilot better. Sure there's times when you're gonna make someone totally helpless, but them's the breaks (for good or ill) in a perma-CC system like we have. Now if TDs affected missiles, I'd definitely agree with you (on the condition of an even larger TD bonus boost).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2012-12-27 21:42:03 UTC
It's less of a deal for me now then it used to be. I really like Gallente drone boats for plex work. Tristan - 7.5k EHP. Algos - 13.5k EHP. Vexor - 56k EHP. Put an AB, Scram, and one or two webs on them and sit on the warpin. I like it when they are ewar fit. Less buffer to go through or utility to dictate range. Twisted
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-12-27 21:43:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


I feel your pain, but the natural solution to this problem is to use a missile ship, get closer, or pilot better. Sure there's times when you're gonna make someone totally helpless, but them's the breaks (for good or ill) in a perma-CC system like we have. Now if TDs affected missiles, I'd definitely agree with you (on the condition of an even larger TD bonus boost).

-Liang


I thought TDs did affect missiles now. Was that not put in with Retribution?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#7 - 2012-12-27 21:47:27 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I feel your pain, but the natural solution to this problem is to use a missile ship, get closer, or pilot better. Sure there's times when you're gonna make someone totally helpless, but them's the breaks (for good or ill) in a perma-CC system like we have. Now if TDs affected missiles, I'd definitely agree with you (on the condition of an even larger TD bonus boost).

-Liang


I thought TDs did affect missiles now. Was that not put in with Retribution?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1990646#post1990646

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-27 21:48:48 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
The balancing trick is that they are completely useless against missile boats.


That was due to change on 4/12, but was cancelled
It won't stay cancelled for ever
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#9 - 2012-12-27 21:51:09 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
The balancing trick is that they are completely useless against missile boats.


That was due to change on 4/12, but was cancelled
It won't stay cancelled for ever


I'm sure the situation will receive proper attention once they move forward with the change. I am not really a fan of preemptively nerfing things before the scheduled improvement arrives.

Devs: "We've announced we are going to improve blaster tracking in 6 months. We're nerfing Hyperion grid by 40% today in compensation".
Players: "lolwut?"

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-12-27 22:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Kitty Bear wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
The balancing trick is that they are completely useless against missile boats.


That was due to change on 4/12, but was cancelled
It won't stay cancelled for ever

I am aware of this. If TDs become viable against missiles, I'm sure there will be a large nerf to them to compensate. It's a terrible idea anyway so I hope it gets cancelled.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-12-27 22:43:56 UTC
I'm just not satisfied with missiles (or drones) being the only hard counter to TDs. That means flying a turret ship is a crap shoot as to whether or not your enemy will have a TD and you'll wind up boned. Sure fast ships with good tracking and a web can still manage but what about slow frigs like the Punisher with it's two mid slots? Not to mention how crappy laser turrets track when not TD'd.

Also everyone is fine with ECM not being viable on unbonused ships. Why should TDs be any different?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2012-12-27 22:54:27 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
I'm just not satisfied with missiles (or drones) being the only hard counter to TDs. That means flying a turret ship is a crap shoot as to whether or not your enemy will have a TD and you'll wind up boned. Sure fast ships with good tracking and a web can still manage but what about slow frigs like the Punisher with it's two mid slots? Not to mention how crappy laser turrets track when not TD'd.

Also everyone is fine with ECM not being viable on unbonused ships. Why should TDs be any different?


TEs and TCs are also 'hard counters' to a TD. I don't understand why you're complaining that you need a hard counter to something that is frequently fixable with better piloting. At least, in your example of a Punisher. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-12-27 23:16:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


TEs and TCs are also 'hard counters' to a TD. I don't understand why you're complaining that you need a hard counter to something that is frequently fixable with better piloting. At least, in your example of a Punisher. :)

-Liang


Well I don't think I've ever been up against a TD in a Punisher, mostly because I don't fly them anymore. But I have lost a few pulse fit Coercers to them and it has a tracking bonus which is way better than a TE or TC. Maybe I'm the worlds worst pilot but I couldn't hit anything no matter what I tried.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#14 - 2012-12-27 23:37:57 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


TEs and TCs are also 'hard counters' to a TD. I don't understand why you're complaining that you need a hard counter to something that is frequently fixable with better piloting. At least, in your example of a Punisher. :)

-Liang


Well I don't think I've ever been up against a TD in a Punisher, mostly because I don't fly them anymore. But I have lost a few pulse fit Coercers to them and it has a tracking bonus which is way better than a TE or TC. Maybe I'm the worlds worst pilot but I couldn't hit anything no matter what I tried.


If you're shooting a normal sized frigate (eg, not AB interceptor) with small lasers and missing, chances are you're optimal disrupted and need to get closer to the target. If you can't get closer, run away. If you can't run away, you got outplayed.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-12-27 23:47:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

TEs and TCs are also 'hard counters' to a TD.


Opt / TE 15 / Script TC 15 / Script TD 47.75
Fall / TE 15 / Script TC 30 / Script TD 47.75
Track / TE 9.5 / Script TC 30 / Script TD 47.75

It's more of a soft counter.

I personally think they should really only shine above TC's on Disruption hulls. Tracking mods should be more of a hard counter to unbonused TD's just like ships with Opt, Falloff, Tracking bonuses can serve as a counter to bonused TD's.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#16 - 2012-12-27 23:54:23 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

TEs and TCs are also 'hard counters' to a TD.


Opt / TE 15 / Script TC 15 / Script TD 47.75
Fall / TE 15 / Script TC 30 / Script TD 47.75
Track / TE 9.5 / Script TC 30 / Script TD 47.75

It's more of a soft counter.

I personally think they should really only shine above TC's on Disruption hulls. Tracking mods should be more of a hard counter to unbonused TD's just like ships with Opt, Falloff, Tracking bonuses can serve as a counter to bonused TD's.


I don't think it makes sense that 1 TD <= 1 TC/TE considering that a TC/TE always provides a bonus. That's either way too big of a TE/TC boost or way too big of a TD nerf.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-12-28 00:00:00 UTC
Well obviously everyone has their opinions, but I'll just say one last thing. Encountering 4 ships in a row all fit with TDs is more than mere coincidence. And usually when something is hugely popular there's a reason for it.
Alara IonStorm
#18 - 2012-12-28 00:02:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I don't think it makes sense that 1 TD <= 1 TC/TE considering that a TC/TE always provides a bonus. That's either way too big of a TE/TC boost or way too big of a TD nerf.

-Liang

I would think it could be managed well, the lines don't all have to match up. TD / TC's will most likely effect Missiles in the coming expansion. I would say 15% bonus would leave TD's where they should be, 37.5% / 18.75% non scripted. It is an unbonused module after all.

Then again the line is more or less drwan at how powerful one thinks disruption modules should be on an unbonused ship.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#19 - 2012-12-28 00:07:43 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:
Well obviously everyone has their opinions, but I'll just say one last thing. Encountering 4 ships in a row all fit with TDs is more than mere coincidence. And usually when something is hugely popular there's a reason for it.


It is more than mere coincidence. The question is whether you think the game should be about nothing but tank and spank or if you think control mechanics should be allowed as well. TDs work best with fast long range ships - much better than fitting an actual tank. That's going to be expected as long as 5k EHP is considered a high HP frigate. And, that's exactly the kind of ship that you're hunting with that destroyer of yours.

To me the question is: if you know that people are all flying a certain kind of fit... why aren't you countering it?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#20 - 2012-12-28 00:10:20 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I don't think it makes sense that 1 TD <= 1 TC/TE considering that a TC/TE always provides a bonus. That's either way too big of a TE/TC boost or way too big of a TD nerf.

-Liang

I would think it could be managed well, the lines don't all have to match up. TD / TC's will most likely effect Missiles in the coming expansion. I would say 15% bonus would leave TD's where they should be, 37.5% / 18.75% non scripted. It is an unbonused module after all.

Then again the line is more or less drwan at how powerful one thinks disruption modules should be on an unbonused ship.


The thing about it is that a disruption module is either effective or it isn't. If you make it almost wholly ineffective (as you suggest), then you may as well completely remove the ability to fit a control modules to unbonused ships at all. Honestly, I think that TDs are just about perfect for a game like Eve. They're frequently inconvenient and will definitely ruin someone's day, but they're not 100% debilitating and can be countered with decent piloting.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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