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Better Formula for the Bounty-System
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MortisLegati
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-01-14 12:37:48 UTC
There's very little way to manage this system without a good system upon which to base values. CCP has some trouble with that and it's pretty much all that's causing the issues with bounty payouts. Even a contract-based system would only cover some of the cases. It would work for 'professional' bounty hunters who are known to not be someone's alt, though public contracts of that type would be exploitable as all hell. (Theoretical criteria would be similar to "Minimum ISK Lost" "Number of kills" "Pod?" and payouts held in escrow until failure or successfully completed.)
Doddy
Excidium.
#42 - 2013-01-14 12:55:37 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
It's mainly targeted at the DEVs but i'm trying to make it readable for everybody.
Hope it's better now (:


If its targetted at devs why post it here?
Whitehound
#43 - 2013-01-14 13:02:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
The proposed idea centres too much on a 1v1 scenario and is therefore bad, because many fights are not 1v1 fights.

The purpose of a bounty is not to pay just a bounty hunter, but to put the bountied player into more fights. With higher payouts does the balance shift more towards a gratification of the bounty hunter and relieves the bountied player too fast of the bounty. Corporation and alliance bounties of several billions, which are meant to place a bounty onto many players will then get paid out too fast.

I see no reason why bounty hunters need a higher gratification. If you are bad at your job then you won't get better by going after higher bounties and your greed will likely only cause you more losses than you can currently imagine.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#44 - 2013-01-15 22:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
MortisLegati wrote:
There's very little way to manage this system without a good system upon which to base values. CCP has some trouble with that and it's pretty much all that's causing the issues with bounty payouts. Even a contract-based system would only cover some of the cases. It would work for 'professional' bounty hunters who are known to not be someone's alt, though public contracts of that type would be exploitable as all hell. (Theoretical criteria would be similar to "Minimum ISK Lost" "Number of kills" "Pod?" and payouts held in escrow until failure or successfully completed.)


It's not hard to find a save value that's not exploitable. I made quite a few suggestions and all of them would would work if you do it right. This is NOT an issue.
20% of the ship is nowhere close exploitable. 20% of just the hull is rediculous (:

Doddy wrote:
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
It's mainly targeted at the DEVs but i'm trying to make it readable for everybody.
Hope it's better now (:


If its targetted at devs why post it here?


Where else would I post it?

Whitehound wrote:
The proposed idea centres too much on a 1v1 scenario and is therefore bad, because many fights are not 1v1 fights.


How does my idea focus on a 1v1 scenario in any way? It does NOT. Splitting the bounty to the people on the killmail is in no way anything I'd dislike.

Whitehound wrote:
The purpose of a bounty is not to pay just a bounty hunter, but to put the bountied player into more fights. With higher payouts does the balance shift more towards a gratification of the bounty hunter and relieves the bountied player too fast of the bounty. Corporation and alliance bounties of several billions, which are meant to place a bounty onto many players will then get paid out too fast.

I see no reason why bounty hunters need a higher gratification. If you are bad at your job then you won't get better by going after higher bounties and your greed will likely only cause you more losses than you can currently imagine.


Well yes, thank you for your comment. And 20% bounty will NOT put the bountied player into more fights. Therefore it has abolutly no meaning in the current state. If you put several billions on a corp or alliance would you not actually want bounty hunters to go after them? Currently they don't! I would want them to be in constant danger and loosing ships instead of not caring. And it would in no way be payed out fast. The only way to remove a few billions from your head is by loosing an incredible amount of isk. And if that happens the bounty did it's job.

People with high bounties got them because they are
a) very annoying, which is mostly possible if they are awesome in pvp
b) not easy to catch, otherwise the bounty would be gone already.
So yes: catching a high-bounty-target needs a good bounty hunter or you will only loose your ship. People with high bounties are either hated a lot or very challenging to kill.
But why do I have to explain this over and over:
Would you attk someone you would usually not attk just because you may earn 20% of his hulls worth? Answer this for yourself and only continue suggesting "20% is enough" if your answer is "yes". I however doubt this (:
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#45 - 2013-01-15 22:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
I don't see why people here are arguing. Nobody who really thinks about it should be ok with the current system. Why is this even a question? There should be only 4 kinds of people that dislike my suggestion:
a) people that are afraid of meaningful bounties on their heads.
b) people that don't understand my idea
c) people that dislike the general idea of bounties that are accessable for everybody
d) people that want to ruin Eve so that WoW gains more players (:
Feel free to select the group that fits you best (:
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#46 - 2013-01-15 22:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
I personally thought bounties would have been better as how contracts currently work. Far more personalised to assign a bounty to someone that i know is going to go and actually kill them. The current system lacks this, and the fact that everyone now has bounties kinda kills it. Now everyone just gets a pointless extra 20% isk from their kills. Not exactly bounty hunting. I see the kills from bounties i've assigned on people, and think meh, another random kill. Hardly the satisfaction i was looking for in my desire for revenge.

My problem has always been that EvE has advertised TO DEATH that people can be bounty hunters. And even now with the system far better than it was, the bounty hunter profession is still dead. I highly doubt those in the top ten bounty hunters actually went out of their way to hunt down good targets, but rather just lucked out in who they randomly exploded. I also feel that by making it so broad, making everyone wanted from the filthiest pirate scum to the the most innocent highsec carebear, makes little sense. Sure those that flaunt the law in highsec should be the ones that bear these wanted signs? Rather than everone who plays eve?

The only good thing from the new system is as a meaningful way to get back at highsec gankers. Transferable killrights are awesome, and a great way to introduce consequences to players that live off risk-free ganking. Lets face it, those highsec carebears have no other way to get back at the players that gank them.

As a player with a significant bounty, i can't personally say its made me more desirable to kill. I'm pretty sure most people will still try to kill me on sight in lawless space anyways. But if the percentage stays at 20%, i'm pretty sure i'm going to be wanted till the end of time. Shocked

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-01-15 22:44:42 UTC
I made a thread just after the expansion about the top bounties not being worthwhile to hunt down because of the way the bounty system works.

A dev responded that they intended to make the payout on bounties scale in some way based on the top 10 list, but that they didn't have time to do it prior to retributions release.


At some point the top bounties will pay out more than 20%.
That is the only thing I personally feel needs to be done with the bounty system.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#48 - 2013-01-15 22:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
Yep. In addition to my dynamic and higher bounty-percentage I also suggested that everyone should be able to select the bounty-minimum that a player needs to apear "blacklisted". 100.000K isk shouldnt make someone black for everybody. (:

100.000isk * 45.000 = 4.500.000.000
For just 4,5bil one could mark everyone that is currently online black for everybody (:
Hell, I could do this myself if it wasnt so much clicking (:

Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I made a thread just after the expansion about the top bounties not being worthwhile to hunt down because of the way the bounty system works.

A dev responded that they intended to make the payout on bounties scale in some way based on the top 10 list, but that they didn't have time to do it prior to retributions release.


At some point the top bounties will pay out more than 20%.
That is the only thing I personally feel needs to be done with the bounty system.


10 people from 400.000?
And nobody cares aslong as you'r number 11 from 400.000?
hmmmmm (:
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-01-15 22:53:40 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181188&find=unread

Well not my thread, but a response to my suggestion to make the top 10 guys pay out more.
Soniclover wrote:

I think this is a good idea. We had a similar story, but didn't have time to do anything with it for Retribution. I think there should be leverage to increase the payout up to around 30%, for kills on people with high bounty. Killing someone in the top 10 most wanted should definitely count for more.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-01-15 22:57:27 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:


10 people from 400.000?
And nobody cares aslong as you'r number 11 from 400.000?
hmmmmm (:

Yes, because being one of the top 10 most wanted people in EVE should come with an incentive for people to hunt you down.

A billion isk bounty isn't worth hunting down any more than a 1 million isk bounty.

Keep in mind that most of those 400k people have insignificant bounties levels to start with, but why hunt the guy with 5 million when that guy with 1 million in the system your in is worth as much.

There needs to be a worthwhile incentive, and being able to blow them up more isn't worthwhile to travel to the other side of EVE for. Bounty hunters should want to.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#51 - 2013-01-15 23:07:14 UTC
Did you even read my post?
It solves that dynamic payout in a much better fassion.

With your "top 10 or not" system it wouldnt matter if someone has 1mil or 5mil. neither one will be top10 (:
Actually there would just be 10 funny rich people that put extreme bounties on their inactive alts and you have changed a whole lot of nothing (:
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-01-15 23:49:05 UTC
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Did you even read my post?
It solves that dynamic payout in a much better fassion.

With your "top 10 or not" system it wouldnt matter if someone has 1mil or 5mil. neither one will be top10 (:
Actually there would just be 10 funny rich people that put extreme bounties on their inactive alts and you have changed a whole lot of nothing (:

CCP isn't going to go over a 30% payout. I'm betting on that sinse that was a number soniclover put forth as being something they considered.

They won't go to 67% of the value becaue it would be exploitable.

I would love if they did your idea, they wont though.

The top 10 payout is something that is likely going to happen though, and that's better than nothing.
They also said that they're considering a means of moving the top 10 around so that we don't get in a situation where it's just people pushing themselves to the top 10 for epeen.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#53 - 2013-01-15 23:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Destriouth Hollow wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
so tell me how you want to solve it? you think you can't buy all abbadons in the area as an alliance and make it to a big bounty payout event once a month? Or with much easier to manipulate items. It has been done already with FW LP which uses the same system.

the only defense are low payouts. Otherwise you will just kill yourself to get rid of the bounty or make even profit from it if you do it right.

IF it would be sovleable you would not need your formula. Just set the payout to 70%... done


There is no problem in getting a save low value.
If the current save value isnt enough, take the lowest save value in the last 6 months.
That would be pretty impossible to manipulate, as you would need to buy all items of one type for 6 months to make this happen.
And when u take the cheapest of the prices those items were sold for you lost all meaning of manipulating anything.
It would still be billions for officer modules though.
It's not a matter of beeing possible or not, it's just a matter of the right formula and savety messures.


again. if there would be a formula to solve the problem you could always pay the max amount. But there is no such thing in a player driven, regional fragmented market like we have it in eve. You will always find a way to exploit it if the payout is not conservative enough. Once its exploitable the new system is not better as the original pay everything system.

so just take the lowest sell order in the whole universe you say? Perfect. Let me quickly set up some sell orders in a nullsec outpost which will effectively reduce the payout of my favorite fittings to almost 0.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Solosky
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-01-16 00:10:57 UTC
This thread made me sad (again) about fact EVE players have much better ideas than devs.

Right now those 20% flat bounties seems like wasting of development resources.
Whitehound
#55 - 2013-01-16 00:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
I understand that you want more ISKs, everyone wants more all the time, but why do you think you deserve them?

I very much like the way it works for several reasons:

- My bounties require the bountied player to make a 5 times higher loss before he loses the "Wanted" sign.
- My bounties stay less important than the victory itself and so the victory stays the main motivator for a fight.
- I do not want my bounties to be paid out to players who try to get lucky.
- Nor do I want my bounties to be paid out to those who only look at the ISKs, then fail and thereby give the bountied player several victories before the actual loss.

Higher payouts defeat these points.

If you then cannot win 5 times, and you do get loot each time as well, then why would you deserve a higher payout?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#56 - 2013-01-18 19:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Destriouth Hollow
Solosky wrote:
This thread made me sad (again) about fact EVE players have much better ideas than devs.

Right now those 20% flat bounties seems like wasting of development resources.

thx

Whitehound wrote:
I understand that you want more ISKs, everyone wants more all the time, but why do you think you deserve them?

I very much like the way it works for several reasons:

- My bounties require the bountied player to make a 5 times higher loss before he loses the "Wanted" sign.
- My bounties stay less important than the victory itself and so the victory stays the main motivator for a fight.
- I do not want my bounties to be paid out to players who try to get lucky.
- Nor do I want my bounties to be paid out to those who only look at the ISKs, then fail and thereby give the bountied player several victories before the actual loss.

Higher payouts defeat these points.

If you then cannot win 5 times, and you do get loot each time as well, then why would you deserve a higher payout?



But with some ppl II feel like arguing with a bunch of.....
ah.... I shouldn't say it......

No I don't want more ISK for myself. I know I'm not good enough at PvP to hunt down seasoned PvPers with high bounties.
All I wan't is that people that wan't someone dead have bounties as an USEFUL option. And I wan't people that are bored with their current experience to have bountyhunting as an interesting career-option. I just wan't EVE to become a bit more differentiated in it's options for an even greater game.

1. "- My bounties require the bountied player to make a 5 times higher loss before he loses the "Wanted" sign."

5 times higher than what? Nobody said anything about 100%. 100% would just lead to ppl removing their own bounties with 0 gain or loss. If you just want ppl to have the "wanted" sign for a long time: Just put 100.000 ISK on them everytime they loose it. Nobody will care and it will be very cheap. Yet, it won't change much for that guy.
-> Bounties are currently useless

2. - My bounties stay less important than the victory itself and so the victory stays the main motivator for a fight.

Exactly my reasoning. Bounties currently don't matter. You only attk those you would attk anyway to achieve victory.
-> Bounties are currently useless

3. "- I do not want my bounties to be paid out to players who try to get lucky."

If you don't want to pay out the bounties to ppl that would usually not attk the target, then why do you even put it? Everybody will always do save kills, you don't need to put a bounty for that.
-> Bounties are currently useless

4. "- Nor do I want my bounties to be paid out to those who only look at the ISKs, then fail and thereby give the bountied player several victories before the actual loss."

You don't want to give ISK to those that care about it? You only want to give ISK to people that don't care for ISK? They by defintion won't change they behavior for ISK, as they don't care about it.
-> Bounties are currently useless

It's very hard to show you the flaws in your reasoning without becoming offensive. I hope you appreciate me trying.
.................
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#57 - 2013-02-03 02:16:34 UTC
*my very first bump ever*
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-02-03 05:37:25 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
I understand that you want more ISKs, everyone wants more all the time, but why do you think you deserve them?

I very much like the way it works for several reasons:

- My bounties require the bountied player to make a 5 times higher loss before he loses the "Wanted" sign.
- My bounties stay less important than the victory itself and so the victory stays the main motivator for a fight.
- I do not want my bounties to be paid out to players who try to get lucky.
- Nor do I want my bounties to be paid out to those who only look at the ISKs, then fail and thereby give the bountied player several victories before the actual loss.

Higher payouts defeat these points.

If you then cannot win 5 times, and you do get loot each time as well, then why would you deserve a higher payout?


Because expecting a player to be 5 times better than anyone else is an unreasonable expectation. Anyways, in terms of calculating the costs, is there any particular reason that it can't be calculated from the market data directly in somewhat real time or recalculated at each downtime?
Whitehound
#59 - 2013-02-03 09:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Aren Madigan wrote:
Because expecting a player to be 5 times better than anyone else is an unreasonable expectation. Anyways, in terms of calculating the costs, is there any particular reason that it can't be calculated from the market data directly in somewhat real time or recalculated at each downtime?

You are not expected to be 5 times better. You are only not meant to receive the entire amount, because the bountied player could just take an alt and trade his ship for the bounty. In order to avoid this needs the bounty to be significantly lower than a ship's value.

Why all the greed on the bounty? What has changed since Retribution that this is suddenly not enough ISKs when before you got nothing? Who shall take your demands serious? It is like you are being given a piece of chocolate cake and then start yelling you want the whole cake, ALL CAKE, MOOOAARRR CAKE!, CAKE NOW NOW NOW!!1!11!, ...

How about this:

- Reduce the bounty payout down to 5%.
- Add a Bounty Negotiation skill to increase it by 4% per level to a maximum of 25%.

Those who don't train the skill will get less and it leaves more to those who do.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Destriouth Hollow
Star-Destroying-Warlords
#60 - 2013-02-04 11:47:15 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

Why all the greed on the bounty? What has changed since Retribution that this is suddenly not enough ISKs when before you got nothing?


Well nothing has changed. The mechanic didn't work before and it still doesn't.

Whitehound wrote:

Who shall take your demands serious? It is like you are being given a piece of chocolate cake and then start yelling you want the whole cake, ALL CAKE, MOOOAARRR CAKE!, CAKE NOW NOW NOW!!1!11!, ...


This is just childish. The given cake is one, that is tasty to noone. I don't care if we have no cake on the shelve or a microscopic piece of garlic-booger-cake. Nobody would eat either one. It's just sitting there.

Whitehound wrote:

How about this:

- Reduce the bounty payout down to 5%.
- Add a Bounty Negotiation skill to increase it by 4% per level to a maximum of 25%.

Those who don't train the skill will get less and it leaves more to those who do.


This would be far better than the current system, as one could specialize towards bounty-hunting. It would still not be enough to be feasable though and the bounty-amount on someones head still wouldn't matter. All in all:
My system would help Eve much more, but I could see a skill affecting it beeing usefull.