These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

I wonder where these 'conspiracy theory' types come from?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#61 - 2012-12-28 20:00:43 UTC
You've got to love how rumor and accusation magically turns into fact over time. Smile

I was there for all of the incidents mentioned in this thread and many of the "facts" presented (including much of what was published at the time) are either not entirely true or very misleading.

One example would be the T2 BPO's mentioned. Mosts of those BPO's had little value then, and are fairly worthless today as well. Perhaps the most profitable one was a destroyer BPO.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a billion ISK profit from a T2 Destroyer BPO? Big smileBig smileBig smile
Lets put it this way, you'd be lucky if you were able to measure the time in months instead of years.

Just an example of the many facts most of the public tends to "overlook" when a juicy story comes along. Just like how one employee's misconduct suddenly becomes a "conspiracy"... or how one hacker who (while loudly claiming otherwise) refused to work with CCP through the proper channels is now considered to be a martyr, instead of an attention whore milking the situation for all the mileage and drama possible.

Still, people love a good conspiracy. Doesn't matter if there really is one or not.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-12-28 20:06:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Ranger 1 wrote:
You've got to love how rumor and accusation magically turns into fact over time. Smile

I was there for all of the incidents mentioned in this thread and many of the "facts" presented (including much of what was published at the time) are either not entirely true or very misleading.

One example would be the T2 BPO's mentioned. Mosts of those BPO's had little value then, and are fairly worthless today as well. Perhaps the most profitable one was a destroyer BPO.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a billion ISK profit from a T2 Destroyer BPO? Big smileBig smileBig smile
Lets put it this way, you'd be lucky if you were able to measure the time in months instead of years.

Just an example of the many facts most of the public tends to "overlook" when a juicy story comes along. Just like how one employee's misconduct suddenly becomes a "conspiracy"... or how one hacker who (while loudly claiming otherwise) refused to work with CCP through the proper channels is now considered to be a martyr, instead of an attention ***** milking the situation for all the mileage and drama possible.

Still, people love a good conspiracy. Doesn't matter if there really is one or not.


Except for the fact that the one that I posted was actually factual misconduct, demonstrably so by the dev-in-question's actual confession of misconduct. Regardless of the values of the BPO's, if they are obtained "unlawfully" (against the rules of the EULA), especially by a dev to gain an upper hand for their in-game mates, it is misconduct plain and simple. The degree of it is entirely irrelevant, because as soon as they start getting away with it, there's the possibility that it can escalate anyway.

But, that situation has ended, it is long in the past, as are the others, and there is no point railing on about it all now. Any association that the devs may have with Goonswarm is both highly unlikely and completely unproven at this stage. There is no merit for this particularly popular hypothesis.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2012-12-28 20:13:52 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
You've got to love how rumor and accusation magically turns into fact over time. Smile

I was there for all of the incidents mentioned in this thread and many of the "facts" presented (including much of what was published at the time) are either not entirely true or very misleading.

One example would be the T2 BPO's mentioned. Mosts of those BPO's had little value then, and are fairly worthless today as well. Perhaps the most profitable one was a destroyer BPO.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to make a billion ISK profit from a T2 Destroyer BPO? Big smileBig smileBig smile
Lets put it this way, you'd be lucky if you were able to measure the time in months instead of years.

Just an example of the many facts most of the public tends to "overlook" when a juicy story comes along. Just like how one employee's misconduct suddenly becomes a "conspiracy"... or how one hacker who (while loudly claiming otherwise) refused to work with CCP through the proper channels is now considered to be a martyr, instead of an attention ***** milking the situation for all the mileage and drama possible.

Still, people love a good conspiracy. Doesn't matter if there really is one or not.


Except for the fact that the one that I posted was actually factual misconduct, demonstrably so by the dev-in-question's actual confession of misconduct. Regardless of the values of the BPO's, if they are obtained "unlawfully" (against the rules of the EULA), especially by a dev to gain an upper hand for their in-game mates, it is misconduct plain and simple. The degree of it is entirely irrelevant, because as soon as they start getting away with it, there's the possibility that it can escalate anyway.

But, that situation has ended, it is long in the past, as are the others, and there is no point railing on about it all now. Any association that the devs may have with Goonswarm is both highly unlikely and completely unproven at this stage. There is no merit for this particularly popular hypothesis.


You redeemed yourself with your last paragraph.

One persons misconduct does not constitute a conspiracy. In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed.

Rather the opposite of a conspiracy actually.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-12-28 20:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
"In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed."


Completely impossible. But enjoy living in your fantasy world. As a matter of fact it's in their best interest to cover up anything they might find.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-12-28 20:20:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

You redeemed yourself with your last paragraph.

One persons misconduct does not constitute a conspiracy. In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed.

Rather the opposite of a conspiracy actually.


If you read my post where I linked the article covering the T20 incident, I did make it quite clear that any one incident regarding dev misconduct is not justification or proof of any other incident of misconduct, and past transgressions are no justification for any of the current conspiracy theories. But they do serve to fuel the flames of paranoia.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#66 - 2012-12-28 20:21:00 UTC
i think to be fair eve (since i have been playing it ) is one of those games where the player base (for the most part ) absaloutly scrutinise every single aspect of every single patch and every single minor change to see who benefits what and how we as players can exploit every single aspect of said patch upgrade and exploit .

in my opinion ...and this is just my opinion i speak for noone else ...I think this what makes this game the game it is .

as it says on the box " be who you want to be ...accept no compramises "

i still firmly believe this even after all these years of playing ...else i would have stopped playing many years ago ... eve basically reflects real life ... and dont say it doesnt ..because it does ...any one who doesnt is a fool .

as mate of mine used say ... I`d **** the crack of dawn ...if i could get up early enough


and it still rings true with eve .
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-12-28 20:24:47 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
"In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed."


Completely impossible. But enjoy living in your fantasy world. As a matter of fact it's in their best interest to cover up anything they might find.


Nope. It's not impossible, and it's never in a company's best interests to cover up transgressions. Never. Because there always remains the possibility that their cover up will be exposed, either from externally (like the T20 hacker) or internally (by a disgruntled employee). Basic PR 101 - never keep secrets that could damage be damaging for the organisation.

You really need to state why it's impossible when you make a claim like that. Claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#68 - 2012-12-28 21:06:42 UTC
CCP did 9/11

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Aditu Riraille
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-12-28 23:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aditu Riraille
Is it really so hard to believe that humans who find themselves in positions of power inevitably begin with good intentions, yet as time goes by those good intentions turn increasingly to bad intentions?
As Lord Acton said:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

EVE Online - a game that actively promotes free will and nearly boundless action, regardless of the outcome. Why wouldn't it end up drawing in all the griefers, those will-imposing wimps out there? Play your cards right and who knows where you may end up. A typical real world reject who would be ignored at best and snuffed out in certain circles can claim to greatly influence a community of thousands into doing his bidding.

Far fetched? You may think so, but mankind has been manipulating this world to suit his fancy since he developed consciousness and the ability to justify his actions. Just because it ends up being some schmuck in his mother's basement plotting doesn't surprise me in the least.

Some people take this game entirely too seriously.

"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." T. S. Eliot   
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-12-28 23:15:15 UTC
You spelled Goonspiracy wrong.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#71 - 2012-12-28 23:22:22 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
"In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed."


Completely impossible. But enjoy living in your fantasy world. As a matter of fact it's in their best interest to cover up anything they might find.

Nope. It's not impossible, and it's never in a company's best interests to cover up transgressions. Never. Because there always remains the possibility that their cover up will be exposed, either from externally (like the T20 hacker) or internally (by a disgruntled employee). Basic PR 101 - never keep secrets that could damage be damaging for the organisation.

You really need to state why it's impossible when you make a claim like that. Claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Oh, good one.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-12-28 23:30:45 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
"In fact CCP as a company, as a direct result of this, took steps far beyond what any other gaming company to date has done to try to ensure (as best as can be done) that future instances of misconduct will either be deterred or at least quickly exposed."


Completely impossible. But enjoy living in your fantasy world. As a matter of fact it's in their best interest to cover up anything they might find.


Nope. It's not impossible, and it's never in a company's best interests to cover up transgressions. Never. Because there always remains the possibility that their cover up will be exposed, either from externally (like the T20 hacker) or internally (by a disgruntled employee). Basic PR 101 - never keep secrets that could damage be damaging for the organisation.

You really need to state why it's impossible when you make a claim like that. Claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


Yeah it so, organizations cover up all the time to save themselves embarrassment at best and because they're malicious at worst. I present the human ego as evidence, while you have nothing but hope and assumptions contrary to human behavior.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#73 - 2012-12-29 05:27:06 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
For CCP to use players to manipulate the game is just good business.
That way they can change parts of the game with out being accountable.


Such as staging a huge "dev fleet battle" in which certain nullsec alliances engage a blob of dev piloted ships that just happen to be carrying a bunch of T2 BPOs in their cargo bays as loot?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#74 - 2012-12-29 06:48:23 UTC
The answer is simple:

The community do not know whether players are DEV's/GM's or w/e, using their own private account - which they do not pay for btw.

As a result, conspiracy theories will be created, although mostly I think these are simply harmless fun amongst alliances and corporations, and is to be expected in a game which prides itself on its capitalistic lynchpin.

However-

The CSM at a time when the T2 BPO incident occurred, was in the eyes of everyone who supported the idea, believed it would provide transparency. Namely; that CCP employees and affiliates would have their characters named, so we would know who is whom.

This idea, although extreme, I believe would have led to CCP employees no longer having player accounts at all, and only would be able to access content using either the public or private test server and using their assigned employee account login.

CCP is unique in its approach to this MMO, as it is the only company which allows employees to have private accounts (to my knowledge). This, in my humble opinion, is wrong.

Employees should not have private accounts and should not have access to the live server under any circumstances whilst not on the clock.

It removes all doubt and suspicion, and protects CCP and its employees from any finger pointing.

Yet, CCP declined to do it and insisted there is no issue with having employees use personal accounts on the live server.

And oh boy, did this go back and forth for months.

Out of this PR disaster#245, many people in the community came to the conclusion that CCP will do what they want whenever they want and if it goes wrong, they will write us a blog about how sorry they all are and leave it at that.

They really did improve in some areas, no quibbles there, but the end result was they would rather pacify than change.

So, we have an impotent CSM with no power that has an embarrassingly low percentile of votes, that simply do a lot of the work that CCP should be doing but do not want to dedicate the time to - and only exists because they allowed an employee access to the live server on a private account.

Get the drift?

Then we had boot.ini
Then there was 18 months
There we were given a door
Then there was monoclegate
Then we had the twenty-per-center's

I'm probably missing a great many, but none of these really can top the T2BPO incident and the stance CCP took.

This event changed it all and is the reason conspiracies get 'taken to eleven' when there is even the thinnest possibility that an employee is in a large alliance or influential corporation of any kind.

Given the choice between macro miners and CCP employees having private accounts, I'd rather have macro miners, because although I do not condone it in any way shape or form, at least I can identify them.

AK

This space for rent.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-12-29 07:30:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yeah next we'll work on the freighters. After the mining barge/exhumer EHP buffs, anything is possible !

Someting tells me that it was Hulkageddon organizers who were manipulating CCP into buffs... Am I good conspiracy theoretician yet? Smile

AlleyKat wrote:
Employees should not have private accounts and should not have access to the live server under any circumstances whilst not on the clock.

That would send a wrong message about Alts Online.


Okay, just kidding.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#76 - 2012-12-29 07:36:17 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yeah next we'll work on the freighters. After the mining barge/exhumer EHP buffs, anything is possible !

Someting tells me that it was Hulkageddon organizers who were manipulating CCP into buffs... Am I good conspiracy theoretician yet? Smile

Doubtful, it wasn't like they were planning for A Game of Macks.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#77 - 2012-12-29 07:43:10 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yeah next we'll work on the freighters. After the mining barge/exhumer EHP buffs, anything is possible !

Someting tells me that it was Hulkageddon organizers who were manipulating CCP into buffs... Am I good conspiracy theoretician yet? Smile

Doubtful, it wasn't like they were planning for A Game of Macks.

No but they may have wanted their own T2 barges to be able to stand up to Null rats better because they definitely do that.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2012-12-29 13:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
T2 Miner and t20 have already been mentioned.

Other noteworthy incidents were the rigged freighter race event and the allegiations of misconduct contained in Goonswarm's Open Letter (which CCP dismissed for the most part).

Quote:
To the rest of the Eve Community… you too deserve some of the blame. Not those people who ignored these claims, or even those who question CCP and wish to see a game run fairly, without bias or preferential treatment to certain parties. Those are valid claims, and none of us want a game of cheaters.

However, for those of you who irrationally fanned the flames because you wanted everything to be true, because you hate in-game groups for in-game actions… that is yet another problem. You fueled a fire of allegations, witch-hunting and slander that legitimately damages the game’s future. CCP sure as hell screwed up before, but they admitted to screwing up. It’s not your job or mine to destroy a company, a game, and enjoyment to tens of thousands of subscribers just because you think that’d be fun.

Linkage

some things never change Big smile

.
Cyrvys en Distel
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-12-30 23:12:35 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
There is at least one example of CCP directly helping a particular player group, BOB. There was a developer who gave them loads of extremely valuable T2 BPOs, in today's money that's hundreds of billions of ISK. This was discovered by a player who did a great investigation. When he revealed the details CCP's response was to ban all his accounts, and ban anybody who mentioned his name or website for the next several years, and to setup an internal group to investigate developer misconduct. Since then it has been obvious that CCP are not entirely neutral when it comes to events ingame.

The other major example of CCP directly influencing player politics occurred during the war between Goons and Raiden. Goons were losing the war and their members were getting angry, so CCP devs fast-tracked nerfs to make sure goons won, as they were afraid of losing subscriptions. Raiden is now a husk of an alliance that rents from HBC or something like that, and goons continue to keep a large base of active subscriptions to threaten CCP with should they ever start losing again.

Most other conspiracy theories are nonsense.


You're entire second example starts out screaming conspiracy, and the volume doesn't let out even to the end. I am not saying you are wrong, but if one is to be taken seriously, they must measure the tone of their words.
Cyrvys en Distel
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-12-30 23:17:16 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
A conspiracy implies that there is something secretive going on.

The CSM list is no secret. As expected, they operate to represent the interests of their chosen alliances.

These being:

Against All Authorities - nullsec alliance
xXLegion of DeathXx - nullsec alliance
Test Alliance Please Ignore - nullsec alliance
The Honda Accord - nullsec alliance
Dirt Nap Squad - nullsec alliance
Brick Squad - nullsec alliance
Pandemic Legion - nullsec merc group
Noir Mercenary Group - take a guess
Late Night Alliance - FW themed alliance
Ivy League - mostly hisec, devoted interested in helping new players
K162 Alliance - ???
Rooks & Kings - ???

And there you have it. Thirteen players, equally & equitably divided with seven people clearly representing only nullsec interests, five who probably do the same and one who does not.

With that in mind the word "conspiracy" seems a bit melodramatic, would you not say? After all, this is all public information, free for anyone to see and their goals should be obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together. So no, there is no conspiracy or hidden agenda. Rather, there is a very open & obvious agenda that is not in any way hidden from anyone.



This is in no way an 'agenda'. To pick people to speak for entire communities and societies, you don't choose Jim or John from down the road. You pick leaders of big areas. You don't send the Mayor of 'some-podunk-town' to represent the country, you send the leader. So the executive/representing council of EVE happens to be some of the most major Alliances in game...well...that would be the obvious choice for the seats, wouldn't it? Would you want the 'Renegades of Tar Nor' (I don't think this is an actual Corp, but possibly, some little known, 2 bit wanna be fighter squadron) to represent the interests of the majority of EVE with their 6 man (with 3 of these most likely being alts of the creator) corporation, or would you think the head of one of the biggest Alliances in EVE would maybe be a better choice?