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Crime & Punishment

 
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Collective front launched against the New Order, James315 and miner bumping.

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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#741 - 2013-02-03 18:59:14 UTC
Party is 22 jumps away Sad

Better get on the road then

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#742 - 2013-02-04 03:27:16 UTC
Awesome party with fireworks!

I bumped some pesky miners, 1 started whining that he payed his 10m and he did so I bumped him back to his (ice) roid o7

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#743 - 2013-02-04 11:44:31 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Silus Morde wrote:
Never mind, of course you guys will not answer, because to admit that you are not even living up to the past efforts would be a humbling experience for you. So roleplay on and pretend that you are having an effect on the bots. Fly safe.


I don't understand your obsession with comparing the New Order to hulkageddon. Is it part of one of these goonspiracies?

The New Order has different goals entirely, is being done by mostly different people, etc.

Get over it, bro. The New Order is here to stay, and it has inflicted a hundred billion in damages against bots and filthy bot-aspirants. That's a success. Simple.

Estella Osoka wrote:
If it's meaningless, then why are you arguing the point?


I'm merely correcting some of the statements you made. You misunderstood some things, I helped you (and anyone else reading) understand the truth.


Say what you want, you are just trying to trivialize your losses; while magnifying your kills. That is all it really comes down to. A kill is a kill is a kill. No matter how you try to rationalize it.


Except it's not. You're desperately trying to over simplify everything as "a kill is a kill". Comparing a 2m isk destroyer loss to a 200+m exhumer loss isn't comparable at all. It's even less comparable when the destroyer loss was an intentional part of what we were doing.

The fact that you're desperately trying to suggest you tagging concord kills of cheap destroyers is the same as the hundreds of millions we destroy in exhumers and expensive implants is just laughable.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#744 - 2013-02-04 12:41:18 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Silus Morde wrote:
Never mind, of course you guys will not answer, because to admit that you are not even living up to the past efforts would be a humbling experience for you. So roleplay on and pretend that you are having an effect on the bots. Fly safe.


I don't understand your obsession with comparing the New Order to hulkageddon. Is it part of one of these goonspiracies?

The New Order has different goals entirely, is being done by mostly different people, etc.

Get over it, bro. The New Order is here to stay, and it has inflicted a hundred billion in damages against bots and filthy bot-aspirants. That's a success. Simple.

Estella Osoka wrote:
If it's meaningless, then why are you arguing the point?


I'm merely correcting some of the statements you made. You misunderstood some things, I helped you (and anyone else reading) understand the truth.


Say what you want, you are just trying to trivialize your losses; while magnifying your kills. That is all it really comes down to. A kill is a kill is a kill. No matter how you try to rationalize it.


Except it's not. You're desperately trying to over simplify everything as "a kill is a kill". Comparing a 2m isk destroyer loss to a 200+m exhumer loss isn't comparable at all. It's even less comparable when the destroyer loss was an intentional part of what we were doing.

The fact that you're desperately trying to suggest you tagging concord kills of cheap destroyers is the same as the hundreds of millions we destroy in exhumers and expensive implants is just laughable.


Do the destroyer(s) generate a killmail when Concord pops them? Yes.
Do the mining barges/exhumers generate a killmail when ganked? Yes.
Do ships destroyed by NPCs generate a killmail? Yes.

Every player ship in the game generates a killmail. How much that ship cost only matters to people who care about their epeen killboards, or those who actually get good loot from their kills. You may be ganking hundreds of millions, but unless the loot drops are replacing your losses; you (or someone else) are paying out of your pockets for those ganks.
Manny Moons
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#745 - 2013-02-04 17:02:44 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
...How much that ship cost only matters to people who care about their epeen killboards, or those who actually get good loot from their kills. You may be ganking hundreds of millions, but unless the loot drops are replacing your losses; you (or someone else) are paying out of your pockets for those ganks.


The cost of ganking is paid by the New Order, which is funded by the sale of shares thereof. The loot and salvage go to whomever loots and salvages the wrecks. Sometimes that's a New Order agent or scout, sometimes a miner, and sometimes a "vulture" who is there pretending to "protect" miners. New Order knights do care about killboard efficiency, because (a) it shows our shareholders that their capital is being used wisely, and (b) it shows miners that the losses they risk are much greater than our operating costs.

Remember, the ganking of mining vessels is not our goal. Like bumping, it is a practical means of communicating our message to those who are seemingly only interested in accumulating ISK. Miners who lose ships to the New Order typically change their behavior in some way or other. Sometimes they join our cause. Sometimes they vow revenge and trade their exhumers for warships. We see these changes in behavior, whatever form they may take, as an improvement over mindless AFK mining, and as evidence of our success. I expect our shareholders are satisfied that they are getting a good return on their investment.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#746 - 2013-02-05 22:32:24 UTC
With the recent CCP ruling on bumping, the New Order of Highsec may have reached a tipping point. Its been a tough, uphill battle all the way as we have faced numerous attempts to stop us in our mission of enforcing the New Halaima Code of Conduct throughout highsec. Like the initial subject of this thread, all now have fallen to the way side. The New Order moves ahead unopposed now.

Each remaining non compliant miner has to make a decision, a decision that very well could decide his future in Eve. To help them with this decision, I will lay out the main possibilities and the pros and cons of each.

1) Ignore us. This is the default position already attempted by numerous miners over the last several months. "They can't be everywhere", "They will go away if you don't pay them" and "LOL" seem to be the main points of argument by the practicers of this method. Halaima, Kamio, Abudban, Tolle, Osmon, Chelien, Brapelille, Jaschersis, Angymon, Tolle (again), Deninard, Gosalav, etc. Each system and surrounding systems have fallen before us. Several hundred BILLION ISK of Mack, Hulks, Retrievers and pods have been destroyed. More fall every day. Most excitingly, the Knights are now getting skilled enough to fly Tech 2 Catalysts and BCs so they can spread out and operate alone or in pairs. Eventually, we WILL be everywhere.

2) Fight back. Vultures... we all hate them don't we? What do vultures do? They eat things that are already dead. For some reason, there are pilots who think shooting our Knights just before CONCORD blows up their ships is hurting the New Order. They get a kill mail. Good for them. Wave it proud. OR there are the counter gankers. They try to gank the Agents in their Stabber Fleet Issues. They seem to have missed the part about Agents being Invincible. I personally have to give up valuable bumping time to go use my kill rights on failed gankers. I still have three left. Pro tip: If you see me in a Jaguar I'm not coming to bump you. The point of this? You can't kill an Agent by ganking and you can't stop a gank by shooting the Cats AFTER the gank is over.

3) Petition us. Petitioning us is now the definition of insanity (see CCP thread on bumping).

4) Fly a skiff, orbit with a MWD, don't afk mine. Congrats! You have halfway to compliance with The Code. Just don't curse in local and buy a permit and you are there. Frankly, if you are ice mining in a skiff, we've beat you already. Its like a white flag of surrender.

5) Buy a permit, declare your support for the New Order and follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct (www.minerbumping.com). This is the economically wise decision to make. For 10,000,000 ISK the bad men go away. Those who really attempt to understand what the New Order and The Code are all about welcome us and support our efforts. It truly is for the good of the miners and Highsec. Each item in The Code makes Eve a better game, more interesting, more exciting. You should not be able to even SURVIVE while AFK outside of station much less profit. The fact that we had crept right up to the brink of a totally safe highsec should be enough to scare anyone who loves what Eve is. The New Order is here to, hehe, bump us away from the edge.

With the recent news that James 315 is standing for election to the CSM, we, the citizens of Highsec, finally have a chance to have OUR voice heard. The big alliances will be represented. The faction warriors will be there. And there will be James 315 saying, "Highsec is worth fighting for".

315 4 CSM8

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#747 - 2013-02-06 03:48:40 UTC
So let's assume for a second, with no outside biases whatsoever, that the New Order succeeds. They usher in a new age to highsec, and all miners either act in ways that the New Order finds acceptable, or are killed before they can sell their minerals to other industrialists.

What percentage of the current mineral output are we looking at going into the market at this point? I'm fairly certain it'd be less in this hypothetical scenario, if the New Order does in fact manage to be everywhere and lock down highsec mining. So by supply and demand, minerals end up increasing in price.

"A victory for the New Order; legitimate miners now have increased profit as they deserve."

False. You know why it's false? Here's why. Basically, industrialists are in this whole thing to build a product and sell it to generate wealth. The problem is, it gets more difficult to produce wealth if the raw materials you need to construct a product get more expensive. So what do you do? You increase the price of your completed product. Prices of any commodity that requires minerals gathered via highsec mining rise.

That's right. Who would've guessed, cutting off the flow of minerals by any degree just might have a negative effect on the market, and make things more expensive. This however assumes that minerals acquired through reprocessing loot are minimal (AFAIK, compared to the amount of minerals you get from actually mining, they practically are), and that nobody in nullsec steps up to the plate and brings their practically untapped watershed of resources to bear.

So... Is this intended? Because that's a fairly big reason for non-miners to start looking at the New Order with a bit of scrutiny here. I'm fairly certain that the actions they take will have some negative effect on the market.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#748 - 2013-02-06 03:52:27 UTC
Aglais wrote:
So let's assume for a second, with no outside biases whatsoever, that the New Order succeeds. They usher in a new age to highsec, and all miners either act in ways that the New Order finds acceptable, or are killed before they can sell their minerals to other industrialists.

What percentage of the current mineral output are we looking at going into the market at this point? I'm fairly certain it'd be less in this hypothetical scenario, if the New Order does in fact manage to be everywhere and lock down highsec mining. So by supply and demand, minerals end up increasing in price.

"A victory for the New Order; legitimate miners now have increased profit as they deserve."

False. You know why it's false? Here's why. Basically, industrialists are in this whole thing to build a product and sell it to generate wealth. The problem is, it gets more difficult to produce wealth if the raw materials you need to construct a product get more expensive. So what do you do? You increase the price of your completed product. Prices of any commodity that requires minerals gathered via highsec mining rise.

That's right. Who would've guessed, cutting off the flow of minerals by any degree just might have a negative effect on the market, and make things more expensive. This however assumes that minerals acquired through reprocessing loot are minimal (AFAIK, compared to the amount of minerals you get from actually mining, they practically are), and that nobody in nullsec steps up to the plate and brings their practically untapped watershed of resources to bear.

So... Is this intended? Because that's a fairly big reason for non-miners to start looking at the New Order with a bit of scrutiny here. I'm fairly certain that the actions they take will have some negative effect on the market.


Yes prices will go up on the market, I'm sure industrialists will starve....

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#749 - 2013-02-06 04:42:09 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:


Every player ship in the game generates a killmail. How much that ship cost only matters to people who care about their epeen killboards, or those who actually get good loot from their kills. You may be ganking hundreds of millions, but unless the loot drops are replacing your losses; you (or someone else) are paying out of your pockets for those ganks.


They can currently afford 25,000 catalyst losses, presuming that (a) James isn't creaming the funds and (b) they don't scoop any loots or salvage any t2 hulls. Since the pilots concerned enjoy popping barges and do not care about losses, the losses essentially do not matter to the pilot or financially. They won't even matter to a KB efficiency player, because a mack kill followed by concordokken is a 97 - 98% efficiency kill.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#750 - 2013-02-06 06:17:00 UTC
Every once in awhile, you encounter that proverbial unicorn in the wild...

Kill: Retriever
Kill: Capsule
1540 mil destroyed - not bad for a retriever gank!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#751 - 2013-02-06 06:36:41 UTC
how's your "collective front" working out

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#752 - 2013-02-06 08:22:54 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
Every once in awhile, you encounter that proverbial unicorn in the wild...

Kill: Retriever
Kill: Capsule
1540 mil destroyed - not bad for a retriever gank!


haha
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#753 - 2013-02-06 13:41:41 UTC
If you ever widen this to afk ships in general,
i would be happy to join in.
I have quite a track record of people who stopped afking too. ^_^

And i love doing things for a good cause. ^_^
Manny Moons
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#754 - 2013-02-06 14:38:31 UTC
Aglais wrote:
...cutting off the flow of minerals by any degree just might have a negative effect on the market, and make things more expensive...

...that's a fairly big reason for non-miners to start looking at the New Order with a bit of scrutiny here. I'm fairly certain that the actions they take will have some negative effect on the market.


So are you defending botting?

As far as the "negative" effect of elimiinating botting, you can't make a change to any one market variable without affecting all the others. While an increase in mineral prices tends to increase the prices of manufactured goods, it also spurs additional mining, increasing the mineral supply. Many would-be miners have abandoned the profession because of the low reward of competing with the automated mining fleets. Eliminate botting, and the free market will allow prices to stabilize such that mining pays a fair wage. Botting distorts the market, because of the huge volume of minerals obtained without significant player effort.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#755 - 2013-02-06 16:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Aglais wrote:
So let's assume for a second, with no outside biases whatsoever, that the New Order succeeds. They usher in a new age to highsec, and all miners either act in ways that the New Order finds acceptable, or are killed before they can sell their minerals to other industrialists.

What percentage of the current mineral output are we looking at going into the market at this point? I'm fairly certain it'd be less in this hypothetical scenario, if the New Order does in fact manage to be everywhere and lock down highsec mining. So by supply and demand, minerals end up increasing in price.

"A victory for the New Order; legitimate miners now have increased profit as they deserve."

False. You know why it's false? Here's why. Basically, industrialists are in this whole thing to build a product and sell it to generate wealth. The problem is, it gets more difficult to produce wealth if the raw materials you need to construct a product get more expensive. So what do you do? You increase the price of your completed product. Prices of any commodity that requires minerals gathered via highsec mining rise.

That's right. Who would've guessed, cutting off the flow of minerals by any degree just might have a negative effect on the market, and make things more expensive. This however assumes that minerals acquired through reprocessing loot are minimal (AFAIK, compared to the amount of minerals you get from actually mining, they practically are), and that nobody in nullsec steps up to the plate and brings their practically untapped watershed of resources to bear.

So... Is this intended? Because that's a fairly big reason for non-miners to start looking at the New Order with a bit of scrutiny here. I'm fairly certain that the actions they take will have some negative effect on the market.


If mineral prices rise, mining becomes worthwhile again, as it stands the mineral and ice markets are depressed. Industrialists aren't stupid, they are pragmatic, they'll purchase permits and run their own code compliant mining ops for raw materials because it makes economic sense to do so, or they'll purchase their materials for a fixed price from a code compliant mining corporation. Some call what the New Order do extortion, when in fact they are the internet spaceships equivalent to a Union with a closed shop, not a union member? join the union or they'll use the Eve equivalent to a picket line to remove non union members.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Vin King
State War Academy
Caldari State
#756 - 2013-02-06 16:07:03 UTC
A compliant miner is a happy miner.

Proud member of the New Order of HighSec
Emperor Crash Zues
Guns N'Ore
#757 - 2013-02-07 12:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Emperor Crash Zues
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aglais wrote:
So let's assume for a second, with no outside biases whatsoever, that the New Order succeeds. They usher in a new age to highsec, and all miners either act in ways that the New Order finds acceptable, or are killed before they can sell their minerals to other industrialists.

What percentage of the current mineral output are we looking at going into the market at this point? I'm fairly certain it'd be less in this hypothetical scenario, if the New Order does in fact manage to be everywhere and lock down highsec mining. So by supply and demand, minerals end up increasing in price.

"A victory for the New Order; legitimate miners now have increased profit as they deserve."

False. You know why it's false? Here's why. Basically, industrialists are in this whole thing to build a product and sell it to generate wealth. The problem is, it gets more difficult to produce wealth if the raw materials you need to construct a product get more expensive. So what do you do? You increase the price of your completed product. Prices of any commodity that requires minerals gathered via highsec mining rise.

That's right. Who would've guessed, cutting off the flow of minerals by any degree just might have a negative effect on the market, and make things more expensive. This however assumes that minerals acquired through reprocessing loot are minimal (AFAIK, compared to the amount of minerals you get from actually mining, they practically are), and that nobody in nullsec steps up to the plate and brings their practically untapped watershed of resources to bear.

So... Is this intended? Because that's a fairly big reason for non-miners to start looking at the New Order with a bit of scrutiny here. I'm fairly certain that the actions they take will have some negative effect on the market.


If mineral prices rise, mining becomes worthwhile again, as it stands the mineral and ice markets are depressed. Industrialists aren't stupid, they are pragmatic, they'll purchase permits and run their own code compliant mining ops for raw materials because it makes economic sense to do so, or they'll purchase their materials for a fixed price from a code compliant mining corporation. Some call what the New Order do extortion, when in fact they are the internet spaceships equivalent to a Union with a closed shop, not a union member? join the union or they'll use the Eve equivalent to a picket line to remove non union members.
I'm so glad you used that example cause unions are nothing more then modern day mobster front with the way they operate. They care more for the money they make then the people thy supposively defend. Even to the point of putting companies out of work for not meeting there demands. Example the twinkie company that just closed down a couple months ago.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#758 - 2013-02-08 07:16:30 UTC
A disgruntled miner attempted to murder the Most Honorable Agent Droopsack. Thankfully, Agent Droopsack is Invincible, and the rebel miner is not. Retribution!

Kill: Obelisk
Kill: Capsule
Valderath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#759 - 2013-02-08 13:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Valderath
All the 'united front' need to do is change tactics. Those that pay James, are killed. You wear the tag in your bio saying you have paid, you are killed.

Once the 'order' has little credibility left, since those that pay are killed anyhow... then Jame's cause is nullified. No one will pay or pay attention to his jabbering. Insurgency against his order is pretty much perfect, since you don't need to kill his 'knights' just kill the source of his support.

Goes for his donor list too. Be fun to see some shadowy peeps start killing his donors and assets for the 'lols'.

Perhaps miners that pay and accept a mining pass can be termed 'scabs' by the Inter-Galatic Miners Union and shot accordingly. Just an idea.
Emperor Crash Zues
Guns N'Ore
#760 - 2013-02-08 14:03:49 UTC
Valderath wrote:
All the 'united front' need to do is change tactics. Those that pay James, are killed. You wear the tag in your bio saying you have paid, you are killed.

Once the 'order' has little credibility left, since those that pay are killed anyhow... then Jame's cause is nullified. No one will pay or pay attention to his jabbering. Insurgency against his order is pretty much perfect, since you don't need to kill his 'knights' just kill the source of his support.

Goes for his donor list too. Be fun to see some shadowy peeps start killing his donors and assets for the 'lols'.

Perhaps miners that pay and accept a mining pass can be termed 'scabs' by the Inter-Galatic Miners Union and shot accordingly. Just an idea.

I've talked to several players about this very idea, so it is being considered.