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Blasters or Autocannons for PVP.

Author
Ace Realist
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-24 19:16:09 UTC
Hello there guys, I'm still fairly new to eve, and I'm at the point where I want to decide wich will be my main weapon system,
I will be doing solo playing mostley, aiming to move to low/null. I'm trained for Gallante, Caldari and Minmitar Battlecruisers.
As a solo battlecruiser pilot, would I be better off going full blaster/autocannon specialization, or train both of them equally?
Thanks in advance.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-24 20:34:18 UTC
Both are solid weapon systems. Later in your career (15-20m+ sp) you will want to start crosstraining multiple races.

I would start with autocannons. It will serve you better in PvE as you get started and projectiles in general are great. It's called winmatar for a reason.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2012-12-24 21:43:22 UTC
Both weapons systems are *part* of the ship you will be flying.
Both are equally fun and dangerous.

Blasters can apply to 2 of your races
Auto cannons are actually used on multiple races, though they don't always get the bonus's

I would recommend that you pick a ship class you like, and make your decision from there.
Minmatar ships are more versatile in general. Faster, better slot versatility.
Gallente ships are known for 'in your face' DPS, and drone bonus's.
It gets down to piloting styles or fleet doctrine sometimes, but imo fly what is FUN for YOU.

While you're deciding, train the gunnery SUPORT skills. They are more important than the gun itself.

DZeeta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-12-24 22:14:30 UTC
I personally would go with autocannons and minmatar ships, they just work well with so many different fleets.
Klown Walk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-12-24 23:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Klown Walk
If you only plan to go solo with bcs, autocannons/minmatar is better or a talos, but that takes much longer to train and is pretty hard to use.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#6 - 2012-12-24 23:49:34 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
It's called winmatar for a reason.


Because most people don't understand falloff mechanics? Because people have it stuck in their head that the Machariel is a minmatar ship (it is in fact a pirate ship combining two races)? Because the number in EFT looks bigger? Because the guns use no capacitor, but there isn't any on those ships anyways?

Seriously, Minmatar is a good race, but it is no better than any other race, its strong point just happens to be popular at the moment.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-12-25 00:10:56 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
It's called winmatar for a reason.


Because most people don't understand falloff mechanics? Because people have it stuck in their head that the Machariel is a minmatar ship (it is in fact a pirate ship combining two races)? Because the number in EFT looks bigger? Because the guns use no capacitor, but there isn't any on those ships anyways?

Seriously, Minmatar is a good race, but it is no better than any other race, its strong point just happens to be popular at the moment.


My 425mm Sleipnir can shoot at 48km with autocannons.
My 220mm Vagabond can shoot further than disruptor range with faction ammo and selectable damage.
The Machariel is arguably the king of PvE and its weapon system has a lot to do with that.

Blasters are great, and yes, if you catch them, you can tear them a new one. But autocannons, despite applying their damage in falloff, bring much more to the table in most practical situations over Frigate size.

Eventually you'll want both, but I'd start with autocannons. Just personal opinion.
GreenSeed
#8 - 2012-12-25 05:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
its not really about which weapon system is the best, its about which one to use for starter pvp. i would say ACs by far, the reason is simple, hybrids have an additional support skill (to lower cap usage) and usually run on gall ships which are armor tanked, that not only means a different set of tanking skills but also rigging that needs to be at least lvl4, not because of t2 rigs, but because armor rigs have the most stupid drawback ever. yeah, cald ships use hybrids too, but with the recent update to cruisers, you don't want to get caught by a drone boat when flying a frigate... its a pretty one sided fight.

in the long run blasters make for different flying style, more fun personally. more about burst dive-in attacks, when compared to the ac's "web and stay at the edge of optimal" which can get boring after a while. the current incarnation of the Vexor comes to mind, that thing can go dual web, dual prop and have 32kehp... and that's without gang links! while delivering unholy retribution in the form of 500dps, up to 600 overloaded. it can get in range, and flee when necessary, with ease.

takes a lot of SP to pull that off, not only on gunnery, but also on drones... but you can fly it on an empty clone, so its a ton of fun to fly it recklessly... you can melt frigates and dessies with its downsized guns + lights. logi pilots will fear you, and T3Bcs will find you funny at first, not so much when you are under their guns and they cant shake you, not even burning mwd.

anyway, im sure someone will disagree with me and tell you to go hybrid, and if they have a compelling argument guess they cant be wrong. that's the thing now, with rebalancing at the current stage its never been easier to get into pvp, and no way of doing it is wrong.

im sure someone could make an argument for not training guns at all, and going for a T1 logi pilot.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#9 - 2012-12-25 06:41:56 UTC
Darius Brinn wrote:
My 425mm Sleipnir can shoot at 48km with autocannons.
My 220mm Vagabond can shoot further than disruptor range with faction ammo and selectable damage.
The Machariel is arguably the king of PvE and its weapon system has a lot to do with that.

Blasters are great, and yes, if you catch them, you can tear them a new one. But autocannons, despite applying their damage in falloff, bring much more to the table in most practical situations over Frigate size.

Eventually you'll want both, but I'd start with autocannons. Just personal opinion.


Your Sleipnir can shoot at 48kms... which is at the end of 1x falloff, so half your shots miss.
Your Vagabond is also at 1x falloff at disruptor range, so again, half your shots miss.

The Machariel is very over rated, again by people who only look at the EFT damage and don't think about how falloff slashes huge chunks out of that number. The speed is nice, but it is far from being the 'king' of PvE. The 'king' of PvE will depend on what type of PvE you're doing.

You guys should graph the damage your Machariel does sometime, then check it against a Nightmare, or a Vindicator, or heck, even a CNR. You will find any of the above with a PvE fit (shield tanked) will out damage a Machriel from 30-40km out.

The Machariel goes fast, that is all it does. It is a one-trick pony, and its trick isn't really that useful.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-25 10:25:50 UTC
this isnt a valid question.
the reason why is that blasters do well on blaster ships, ACs do well on AC ships.
there are no ships where you should be deciding between one of the other, with the sole possible exception of the myrmidon.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Ace Realist
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-12-25 12:50:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Realist
Thanks for all the imput so far.
I'm aware there is no 'best' I would train AC but given the fact I trained Battlecruisers V and able to fly gallante/min/caldari gives me some options. ( I read about the change a few days back and decided to get the maximum out of this as a new player getting some SP for free is never bad)

If I would go for min I should also train my missles (for example the Cane) , and for Caldari/gallante I should train drones aswell, for the first year of eve I think I should just stick with either AC/missles or Drones/blasters.

Edit: on second thought, maybe I dont have to train missles since I might end up using the 2 spots for Neuts.

Lets say a Vindicator and a Machariel go 1vs1 who woud win? (equally skilled pilots)
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#12 - 2012-12-25 15:55:28 UTC
The Mach will win if he holds his range, and kites the Vindi. At worst scenario he would just fly away and warp off.

But if he makes a mistake... gets in to scram and web range, the Vindi will shred him in seconds.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#13 - 2012-12-25 16:03:38 UTC
Ace Realist wrote:
Lets say a Vindicator and a Machariel go 1vs1 who woud win? (equally skilled pilots)


Whoever has the biggest fleet ready to cyno in. Ships don't win fights in EVE, friends win fights.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-12-25 16:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Paikis wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
It's called winmatar for a reason.


Because most people don't understand falloff mechanics? Because people have it stuck in their head that the Machariel is a minmatar ship (it is in fact a pirate ship combining two races)? Because the number in EFT looks bigger? Because the guns use no capacitor, but there isn't any on those ships anyways?

Seriously, Minmatar is a good race, but it is no better than any other race, its strong point just happens to be popular at the moment.

How many people use blasters or rails on unbonused ships?

I could point out more problems with this post and your other one in this thread but cba. Obviously "winmatar" is a joke and in the end you want all races trained, but projectiles are a very solid first weapon system.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-12-25 17:32:57 UTC
Paikis wrote:
[quote=Darius Brinn]

Your Sleipnir can shoot at 48kms... which is at the end of 1x falloff, so half your shots miss.
Your Vagabond is also at 1x falloff at disruptor range, so again, half your shots miss.


But I can reach and I can kite, and medium blasters have PITIFUL range, which dramatically reduces their utility. Gate camping, burning to objectives, kiting...Void is scary, agreed, but by time you got into range (IF you got into range), the autocannon guy has been hitting you for half a minute.

Also, yes, at 48Km I miss shots with my Sleipnir. Now, please tell me how many Kms do I have to burn in my slow-ass Astarte BEFORE even starting to shoot, if I appear at 48Km from my objective.

Spectre Wraith
Darwin Inc.
#16 - 2012-12-30 09:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Spectre Wraith
Jack Miton wrote:
this isnt a valid question.
the reason why is that blasters do well on blaster ships, ACs do well on AC ships.
there are no ships where you should be deciding between one of the other, with the sole possible exception of the myrmidon.


Damnit, as I was slowly reading your post I pictured a Myrm rotating in station and began to slowly begin typing my response until you cockblocked me at the end. =)

Edit - Apparently cockblocked isn't blocked, oh the irony, CCP.

Dear lord, please help me deal with the insufferable....

Idicious Lightbane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-12-30 12:52:17 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
It's called winmatar for a reason.


Because most people don't understand falloff mechanics? Because people have it stuck in their head that the Machariel is a minmatar ship (it is in fact a pirate ship combining two races)? Because the number in EFT looks bigger? Because the guns use no capacitor, but there isn't any on those ships anyways?

Seriously, Minmatar is a good race, but it is no better than any other race, its strong point just happens to be popular at the moment.


It's not about damage numbers, people would be calling gallente OP if it was pure dps stats. Autocannons have amazing damage projection at multiple ranges, while not doing the highest DPS you have selectable damage and can do amazing DPS close up, and still be doing 50% of your potential DPS out to 40km on medium sized ships with fall-off bonus. No cap use isn't a small issue either.
Idicious Lightbane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-30 19:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Idicious Lightbane
Paikis wrote:
Darius Brinn wrote:
My 425mm Sleipnir can shoot at 48km with autocannons.
My 220mm Vagabond can shoot further than disruptor range with faction ammo and selectable damage.
The Machariel is arguably the king of PvE and its weapon system has a lot to do with that.

Blasters are great, and yes, if you catch them, you can tear them a new one. But autocannons, despite applying their damage in falloff, bring much more to the table in most practical situations over Frigate size.

Eventually you'll want both, but I'd start with autocannons. Just personal opinion.


Your Sleipnir can shoot at 48kms... which is at the end of 1x falloff, so half your shots miss.
Your Vagabond is also at 1x falloff at disruptor range, so again, half your shots miss.

The Machariel is very over rated, again by people who only look at the EFT damage and don't think about how falloff slashes huge chunks out of that number. The speed is nice, but it is far from being the 'king' of PvE. The 'king' of PvE will depend on what type of PvE you're doing.

You guys should graph the damage your Machariel does sometime, then check it against a Nightmare, or a Vindicator, or heck, even a CNR. You will find any of the above with a PvE fit (shield tanked) will out damage a Machriel from 30-40km out.

The Machariel goes fast, that is all it does. It is a one-trick pony, and its trick isn't really that useful.


I think you're the person who doesn't understand what falloff range that long entails. Say your Sleip does 800 DPS in optimal (you almost never fight at optimal but that's your base DPS to calculate from) that means that at optimal +1x falloff which is somewhere in the 40's you are still dealing 400 DPS, and that increases as you close range. The only other medium sized ships that gain that DPS at that range with short range weapons is a shield tanked pulse zealot.

Similarly a gank fit Mach will still be doing 600 DPS at 80km using autocannons, with over 1000 at closer ranges. You should plot a DPS graph on those ships for DPS at range, it's impressive.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-12-31 03:09:21 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
The Mach will win if he holds his range, and kites the Vindi. At worst scenario he would just fly away and warp off. But if he makes a mistake... gets in to scram and web range, the Vindi will shred him in seconds.

This. The question in the OP is basically "should I play melee or ranged?" Blasters throw people off a bit in EVE because people think of them as "guns," but they're not. Blasters are the Big Ass Knife, and ACs are the only true "guns" between the two, because of these two weapon systems, only ACs allow for actual ranged fits.

The real advantage of blasters is their tracking, which shows up if you do a worst case DPS graph comparing blaster vs. AC fits against a target moving at max angular (top speed and 90 deg vector). Whether the blaster or AC fit "wins" depends on who can dictate range; if the blaster boat can pull up to its point blank optimal range and stay there, then it has a huge DPS edge not just because of the higher nominal damage mod, but also because it can get under the guns of the AC fit and pound out its peak damage with superior tracking. And if the AC ship can dictate range, then it wins by keeping the fight in its 20-50km comfort zone, where the blaster boat is doing zippo damage, but the AC fit is into its prime tracking band and still doing solid DPS.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-01-03 18:07:49 UTC
Since you say you are new to Eve I would suggest projectile weapon 1st as they require less cap skills to be effective and can produce any damage type. They have higher fitting requirments than other weapon systems but if you are training correctly you should have most of the core skills you will need to fit them. Minmatar ships will server you pretty well as a newer player aswell as they tend to be easier to fit for pvp and have decent drone space.
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