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Is this the best they could do? C'mon folks help them out.
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psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-12-24 15:40:14 UTC
to the op

why dont you pay they subscription then you can dictate what ppl should do and when they should leave npc corps

if not shut the hell up whineing

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-12-24 15:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Joinging a group has NOTHING to do with "group content".

Group content is an issue all it's own.

The dev blog the OP is talking about is a 3 year old dev blog that boils down to:

"We don't want you staying in the NPC corps, it's not what they're there for, it's to rewarding and benifitial and that's not we intended. We want you to join a player corporation and be involved in the wider game. However, if you do not wish to do that then you can stay in the NPC corp, it just shouldn't be as easy to make isk while there."

They failed.
The 11% tax didn't do anything; it never acted as in an incentive for people to get out of the NPC corps. The only people it effects are min/ maxers who try to squeeze every little ISK out of an activity that they can, the misers of EVE.


People want to believe there's some magic solution to the NPC corp problem that doesn't involve "nerfing" anything, there is not. There is nothing you can do for the player corps that is going to encourage people join them that wouldn't involve ristricting what you're capable of doing while in the NPC corps.

Corportation "content", those things you gain access to if you join a corp, are horrible incentivizers because they're specialty activities. You can not just join a corp and build supers or titans, the process and work involved requires direct cooperation with other people and permission to do so. It would be a hell of a situation if everyone could build a titan.

In otherwords, all the incentive activities you can do when you join a corp are RESTICTED content, not inclusive. Not everyone will ever do those things; in fact very few will.


The wider game, content that every person has access to, doesn't require you to be in a group.
You don't need a corporation to run missions. You don't need a corporation to group for incursions. You don't need a corportation to do invention, or research, or T2 production.

Do you even need to be in a player corporation to build a capital industrial ship?

Buffing and creating group content doesn't encourage anyone to join the player run corporation. As long as there is no change in "life style" while in the NPC corps, no one is going to care. That's basically what the tax increase was, a change in life style that had no impact on anyone.

New players do not need to make hundreds of millions of isk.

New players do not build T2 modules and ships.

New players are not doing invention or using the R&D agents. These are things you do after you've gained some understandings of the basic gameplay; at which point you are no longer a "new" player, even if you're not an "experienced" one.

This doesn't mean they need to do stuff like remove the ABILITY to do things while in the NPC corp.
T2 production, for example, can still be done by anyone, just not in the NPC STATIONS. If a corporation in high sec can give public access to facilities like manufacturing lines that they can set the price on and anyone can use.

In otherwords, allow players run corps in high sec to run stations in high sec like null, but with much more limits.
This way you can take some things from the NPC corps, and move them to player run corps, and then the player run corps can provide those thngs for the NPC corp guys. Now the NPC corp guys need to actually interact within the wider game.



And the person that equated NPC corps to a WoW PvE server is playing the wrong game. That's just about the dumbest thing I've ever seen posed on the EVE-O forums yet.


The NPC corps trivialize the player run corporations. There's no real reason for high sec corps unless you just want to run a PoS, which is why there are so many frigging 1 man corps, as well as so many poorly run corporations.

When you can do everything in the NPC corp that you would be doing in a player run corp, there's little incentive to play in them or to take forming and running them seriously. You just end up getting tired of dealing with some of the more tedious, and "annoying" (read: war decs) aspects of being in one or running one, and people just leave or disband to go back to the NPC corp where they don't have to worry about putting in any effort or assuming any risk.


And for all the guys that think "effort" just amounts to "work" and making EVE a "job", quit gaming. That's the mentality that's causing games to be awful, repetitive, peices of crap that offer no challenge what-so-ever. Once upon a time games were actually difficult, and they were ******* fun!

Far to many people are exploiting the safety and ease that the NPC corps offer, while reaping the same benefits as everyone else that actually takes part in the wider game, while assuming more risk and taking on more effort.

They never intended for the NPC corps to be permenant homes because it's easier and safer to just stay there.
Which was Soundwaves point.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2012-12-24 16:00:52 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
11% tax, still doesn't apply to mining.

love my wardec immune npc corp.


Nerf something, tax all the things.
Luanda Heartbreaker
#44 - 2012-12-24 16:29:51 UTC
well, so many monkeys here i will start a banana business. i will be the richest eve player

why does that bother you that lot of ppl in NPC corps? they like to play that way. if you try to force them in player corps they will just leave...
you all just whining about NPC corps, 'cos its a pain in ur ass that u cant kill anybody u want. take ur time to relax and rethink ur life. there are sims players who want to build only and dont want fight, and yes, highsec and safe NPC corps are for them. they can enjoy trading, building stuff and actually u can thank to them that u have so lot of resources available, and if u go mad, u can gank them.
cant u find enough of your kind to kill?, piracy and 0.0 fight is not enough? why does that bother you that some of us have choosen a different way?
actually other than 0.0 life, player corps can give nothing to attract players, every high value activity, which actually require a group together is forced into 0.0. Anything you can do in a highsec player corp, u can do alone, and for the time while CCP cant find a way to make player corps profitable for the individuals not just for the CEOs and their friends, thats the only right way.
OP is right. instead of nerfing highsec and NPC corps, try to be creative or stfu, if u want fight go to 0.0 and shoot goon and PL, there is enough noob to kill them, thats the right challange for u.
pffff gave out the steam...
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2012-12-24 18:25:45 UTC
If we want to do something with npc corp people, why not restrict ships?
They cut off after battle cruisers.
This also handily prevents the sudden death syndrome occurring when they get their first BS.
Next restrict hisec lines to only npc corp members of that group.
This does 2 things.
One it makes the new people able to have access no corp people taking all the slots for no risk.
Two you can now enlist in different corps who will have different base standings and might just be at war with another npc corp.
This will make EVE more dynamic and life filled as people will spread out while increasing the methods of play.
Suddenly systems outside hub regions have uses and provide incentives.
Institute an income/capital gains tax.
This is more to ensure that the current wealth centralization is tempered.

What should not be done is restrict players by taking away level 4s or preventing them from building stuff (though I would be partial to making t2 production pos based to have that incentive)
so new players should be capped at BC level to remove alt play while also giving a reason to want to move into a corp.
all the corps should be enlistable and their S&I made exclusive to npc corp members
this allows them more equal footing while encouraging a more spreadout playing area.
By the same token hisec S&I should be 2x as long and as material needed, lowsec 1.5x and null 1 x
Poses should be held as now awaiting revamp.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-12-24 18:40:20 UTC
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
well, so many monkeys here i will start a banana business. i will be the richest eve player

why does that bother you that lot of ppl in NPC corps? they like to play that way. if you try to force them in player corps they will just leave...
you all just whining about NPC corps, 'cos its a pain in ur ass that u cant kill anybody u want. take ur time to relax and rethink ur life. there are sims players who want to build only and dont want fight, and yes, highsec and safe NPC corps are for them. they can enjoy trading, building stuff and actually u can thank to them that u have so lot of resources available, and if u go mad, u can gank them.
cant u find enough of your kind to kill?, piracy and 0.0 fight is not enough? why does that bother you that some of us have choosen a different way?
actually other than 0.0 life, player corps can give nothing to attract players, every high value activity, which actually require a group together is forced into 0.0. Anything you can do in a highsec player corp, u can do alone, and for the time while CCP cant find a way to make player corps profitable for the individuals not just for the CEOs and their friends, thats the only right way.
OP is right. instead of nerfing highsec and NPC corps, try to be creative or stfu, if u want fight go to 0.0 and shoot goon and PL, there is enough noob to kill them, thats the right challange for u.
pffff gave out the steam...


THIS is the problem.

THIS mentality.

Because THIS is not what CCP wants the NPC corps to be.

Even when CCP says it plane as day:
Quote:
We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role. That said, this change is not implemented to “destroy” NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player.


It doesn't have **** to do with "forcing" anyone to do anything.

But all some of you guys can do is blabber about being forced to do stuff so goons can shoot you.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#47 - 2012-12-24 18:49:35 UTC
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
well, so many monkeys here i will start a banana business. i will be the richest eve player

why does that bother you that lot of ppl in NPC corps? they like to play that way. if you try to force them in player corps they will just leave...
you all just whining about NPC corps, 'cos its a pain in ur ass that u cant kill anybody u want. take ur time to relax and rethink ur life. there are sims players who want to build only and dont want fight, and yes, highsec and safe NPC corps are for them. they can enjoy trading, building stuff and actually u can thank to them that u have so lot of resources available, and if u go mad, u can gank them.
cant u find enough of your kind to kill?, piracy and 0.0 fight is not enough? why does that bother you that some of us have choosen a different way?
actually other than 0.0 life, player corps can give nothing to attract players, every high value activity, which actually require a group together is forced into 0.0. Anything you can do in a highsec player corp, u can do alone, and for the time while CCP cant find a way to make player corps profitable for the individuals not just for the CEOs and their friends, thats the only right way.
OP is right. instead of nerfing highsec and NPC corps, try to be creative or stfu, if u want fight go to 0.0 and shoot goon and PL, there is enough noob to kill them, thats the right challange for u.
pffff gave out the steam...



This post made me vomit Shocked

The Tears Must Flow
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-12-24 18:56:40 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
They could just remove npc corps. It should work just for rookie pilots first weeks.


Try to think this through; pilot gets kicked from corp because he's offline for "too long". Where would his character be when he "finally" logs back in?

Oh no, that would be such a huge problem they wouldn't be able to fix it

End sarcasm
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-12-24 19:04:34 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Far to many people are exploiting the safety and ease that the NPC corps offer, while reaping the same benefits as everyone else that actually takes part in the wider game,...


What do you mean when you say "wider game"?
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-12-24 19:12:21 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
They aren't try to force you anywhere. The npc's corp are imbalanced, even when compared to a high sec payer run corp.

You guys that want to play in the npc's corps receiving all the rewards with next to no risk, and then crying about any change that makes it better to be in a player corp should just frigging quit.

EVE isn't about the npc's corps, and the npc's corps don't attract more people to EVE.

What reward?

The npc's corp. if you don't understand you never will. And why are you crying over a 3 year old dev blog.

First: You are not explaining how a NPC corp is imbalanced to a player run corp.

Second: The devblog is 3 years old and the problems still persist.

Where is the reward in a player run corp for the efforts players sink into them? I believe you are better than this... Do you need more coffee or something?

You're already pointing it out.

Lack of incentive.
If you can do everything but a few specialist type things -IE moon mining, most cap production, super and Titan production- you have no real reason to leave the npc's corps.

Forming one man corps to check out running a PoS isn't really joining a corp either, and a lot of people do that.

There's no benefit to joining a corp. CCP has to deal with the same stuff every other mmo does, encouraging people to join player run groups. It's much more important in EVE though. This is why mmo's do things like guild perks. More xp, better loot drops, etc when you join a guild.

It's why people, raiders, in other mmo's dislike when devs give everyone the same opportunity to achieve things as everyone else. Once upon a time raiding used to be what you did after you joined a guild, now it's what you do while playing solo; without ever having to join a guild.

We may as well start calling it the Generation Q. Lots of people want to play a multiplayer game that thrives on social interaction and working with others like its a single player game. They want to enter a Q and wait their turn to get the same rewards as those people that utilize the mechanics the developers spent time creating so that we could work with others for better rewards.

The NPC corps encourage people to not join a corp.
Everyone's excuse for not joining a corp, mostly always boiling down to it being "the corps" fault, are just that, excuses. There are corporations available in EVE for every play style, even corps full of casual, laid back people who don't force anyone to do anything, just have fun.



You're not supposed to stay in the NPC corps forever, even though you can.
There's no incentive to leave them, it needs to be fixed.

They never followed through on the tax adjustments when the initial increase was obviously not enough. It should go a little higher.

And then they need to remove all T2 production out of (high sec = NPC) stations and into player run structures.

You earn ISK as effectively as everyone else while in the NPC corps when you should be joining player run corps to do that.


EVE revolves around the player run corps, not individuals in the NPC corps.

Could it be that some cant afford to join a corp? how well does a corp full of random newbs with poor leadership and structure do in this "harsh" game? I don't mind the industry stuff because there is more to EVE than T2 production. CCP must fix Player corpsbefore they make any radical changes to High sec.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#51 - 2012-12-24 19:16:59 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

Now I know I've been harsh, but I will offer and request that readers of this post offer suggestions to help.
1. Give CEOs and directors better/more tools to advertise and organize their corp.
2. Give corps an advantage. (unlimited contracts is not a real advantage over what a single player can do)
3. Clean up the corporation interface
4. Fix the wardec system. (Sure ships are getting destroyed, but folks don't mind at all paying you 11% of a low paying mission so they don't lose their shinny new ship.)
5. Balance PVE/Ships so that grouping works better than solo. (Make missions that are not "soloable" and have a group get better than solo rewards. Not incursions and lvl 5s but something even a rookie player can do.)

My suggestions are probably not the best ideas, but they are something. Please folks, help CCP out.


1. Yes, please.
2. Alright, maybe. Sure.
3. Definitely. Yes, please.
4. The war dec system is fine, except that now aggressors can pull out of mutual wars for free and without notice. That needs changing, but otherwise the war dec system is good.
5. They have already started doing this with the AI changes, and pushing players to a style of PvE more akin to PvP. Logi will be significantly more important for big groups now.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#52 - 2012-12-24 19:21:06 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

3: Corps should have far more options available to allow things like salaries and bonuses, and the ability to base that on individual income for the corp brought in by that player. This would necessitate workable tools to create different economic models for corps. Corps need ways to be profitable (or not) as an organization, and if profitable all the members benefit.


They should also be renamed to "guilds" and their corp HQ: "home dungeon".

I have yet to find anyone able to justify working in a "corp" but having to PAY and not to be PAID like it always happens when you work in a corporation.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-12-24 19:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Elrich Kouvo
Fractal Muse wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:

I mean "a" mission(not all missions) that reward a huge payout to the fleet/corp that completes it. It would be difficult enough to require a small fleet. But I agree waiting for a corpmate to warp across to the planned activity can be a pain. Probably the CEO's fault for not organizing though.

Go to wormhole space? The dynamics there encourage fleeting up to complete sites for great rewards.

I would agree that there should be one mission per "level" range that supports a group to complete - if only to get new players into fleeting up to do stuff instead of directing them towards single-player gameplay which is, for many people, boring.

As to the corp thing - you haven't suggested any actual concrete ideas or details.

HOW would you like advertising to be better?
WHAT tools would you like to see?

Without those details your posts are just a continual whiny complaint which is unfortunate.

1. Well a CEO tutorial is one way. Something that lets them know that they are responsible for how successful the player run corp is.
2. Fix the shares system, by making an actual payroll system. This can be done by contracts. I ran a corp where I would contract ore to a mining foreman, in turn he was responsible for assembling his mining "crew" to fulfill the contract. At the end he turned in the ore and received the payment. I think there should be a better way to pay "employees" in player corps. This is something very simple that doesn't require a buff or nerf to any sec., and would make player corps vastly superior to NPC corps.
3. Give a new corp a time limit before the become eligible war targets. (Don't worry folks you'll still get to shoot them & it fixes the newb NPC corp mentality. Now you can have newb player corps.)
These are my ideas, but you are all welcome to share yours.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-12-24 19:40:08 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
1. Well a CEO tutorial is one way. Something that lets them know that they are responsible for how successful the player run corp is.

What a CEO's role is depends entirely on what the corp does. My corp, for instance, is five guys who get together every few weekends when RL allows and do a roam. Our CEO is our RL friend who ties us all together. In between roams and jack-assery, we pretty much play our own way; run missions, low-sec exploration, WH stuff, get into fights, whatever.

Elrich Kouvo wrote:
3. Give a new corp a time limit before the become eligible war targets. (Don't worry folks you'll still get to shoot them & it fixes the newb NPC corp mentality. Now you can have newb player corps.)

This game doesn't need to be any safer.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#55 - 2012-12-24 20:17:40 UTC


Why hasn't anyone said it.

If you don't want to pay the tax, make a SINGLE MAN CORP.

Did you get war decced? Then just delete the corp and make a new one or pay taxes until they leave you alone.

This whole issue is a NON-TOPIC.

If you were in a player corp you'd be paying taxes. If you're in an NPC corp, you're paying taxes.

Don't like taxes? Make your own corp.


Stop blabbering about nothing.

Where I am.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#56 - 2012-12-24 21:02:16 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


Why hasn't anyone said it.

If you don't want to pay the tax, make a SINGLE MAN CORP.

Did you get war decced? Then just delete the corp and make a new one or pay taxes until they leave you alone.

This whole issue is a NON-TOPIC.

If you were in a player corp you'd be paying taxes. If you're in an NPC corp, you're paying taxes.

Don't like taxes? Make your own corp.


Stop blabbering about nothing.


Its got nothing to do with one man corps and everything to do with the devs intentions. The way I see it:
CCP Dev: Umm they aren't movin to player corps.
EVE Player: Player corps suck because I can't earn isk to afford the ships i'll lose in one. I don't need one for how I play EVE.
CCP Dev: If I tax you I'm sure you'll join a player corp
EVE player: No I wont. I'll make a one man corp
* CCP Dev taxes NPC corps
EVE Player: I'm still in a NPC corp or one man corp
CCP Dev: Well Shucks! It didn't work. Now the player base knows I don't have their interest in mind
EVE Player: We told ya so... Don't worry CCP Dev we will continue to play your game till you figure things out.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#57 - 2012-12-24 21:11:08 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
This is what this post is based on: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1183783

Taxing NPC corporations was a rather lame attempt a trying to get players to join player run corporations. I'd like to know how many folks joined player corps because the unbearable 11% NPC corp tax rate. If war declarations and a low tax rate are the only thing player corps have going for t, then its no wonder player run corps are still alive and well. "Where you can flourish and develop as a player"? Sure if you join EVE Uni, but have you been in a player corp recently?
In my time in EVE I have been a CEO and served under other CEOs. I have seen wardecs kill fail corps. CEOs turn and blow up the newb players, corp theft, tyrant CEOs taken down by real life issues leaving without leadership, and a lot of other stupid stuff player run corps are involved in.
So in an effort to get more players into these situations you set up a 11% NPC corp tax to encourage players out of the NPC corps claiming that there are services being provided for free. Were ya'll drunk or something? Did the designer behind this idea get his job through nepotism? The recruitment forum and the recruitment forum is the best you can do to help corporations advertise?

Now I know I've been harsh, but I will offer and request that readers of this post offer suggestions to help.
1. Give CEOs and directors better/more tools to advertise and organize their corp.
2. Give corps an advantage. (unlimited contracts is not a real advantage over what a single player can do)
3. Clean up the corporation interface
4. Fix the wardec system. (Sure ships are getting destroyed, but folks don't mind at all paying you 11% of a low paying mission so they don't lose their shinny new ship.)
5. Balance PVE/Ships so that grouping works better than solo. (Make missions that are not "soloable" and have a group get better than solo rewards. Not incursions and lvl 5s but something even a rookie player can do.)

My suggestions are probably not the best ideas, but they are something. Please folks, help CCP out.




So you are calling for improvements in corp management and mechanics instead of "Nerf all teh high sec!!1!!!!"

Clearly you must be new around here.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#58 - 2012-12-24 21:15:50 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Make missions that are not "soloable" and have a group get better than solo rewards.


This sounds the same as "Make casual players leave the game".
You know, I enjoy soloing because I don't have to wait for 10 hrs on players to get into action or do something.
I want to log for 1 hr and have my fun shooting rats, I don't like grouping with people because it's a hassle and takes too much time.


Then why are you playing an MMO instead of any of the single player space ship games?
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-12-24 21:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elrich Kouvo
Diablo Ex wrote:
You want a suggestion to make Player Corps more attractive? Simple...
Make the NPC Corps equal to Training/Temp accounts.... no training certain skills, no flying certain ships, no running more that L2 missions, etc...

If your in a NPC Corp, you are no better off, or worse off than the rookies on the temp accounts...
If you want more, join a Player Corp or form your own Solo Corp.

Sure, if you make my subscription rate equal to trial accounts. EA is doing this with SWTOR which is F2P. Is that what you really want?
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#60 - 2012-12-24 21:30:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Make missions that are not "soloable" and have a group get better than solo rewards.


This sounds the same as "Make casual players leave the game".
You know, I enjoy soloing because I don't have to wait for 10 hrs on players to get into action or do something.
I want to log for 1 hr and have my fun shooting rats, I don't like grouping with people because it's a hassle and takes too much time.


Then why are you playing an MMO instead of any of the single player space ship games?


Does it really matter?!
If it's an MMO it doesn't mean I have to give people free hugs.

I'm paying money for this game: my money - my game.

Whatever.