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[Retribution Missile Comparison] HAM/HML Tengu v. Torp Golem v. Cruise/Torp CNR
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stoicfaux
#1 - 2012-12-23 20:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Here's some data to help with the HAM versus HML Tengu debate after the Retribution missile changes. My initial impression in the HAM v. HML Tengu debate is that HML's range advantage still trumps the HAM raw DPS. YOMDBIOTBW[1].

The linked google doc has a comparison of the TTK (time to kill) for a small selection of NPCs for the HAM/HML Tengu, Torp Golem , and Cruise/Torp CNR with "standard" fits.

Google Doc spreadsheet

Click the tabs along the bottom to see the results/rankings for the given NPC.

"# TPs" the number of Target Painters
"Fractional Volleys to Kills" - how many volleys need to kill an NPC. The fractional component shows you how much "wiggle room" you have.
"Volleys to Kill" - just fractional VTK rounded up.
"Time to Kill" (TTK) - how many seconds to kill the target, i.e. number of volleys * launcher RoF.


Things to consider:

Tengu HML ranges:
* T1 - ~94km
* Precision - 47km
* Fury - ~70km

Tengu HAM ranges: (with 0 rigs, 1 missile speed rig, 2xspeed rigs, and 2xspeed + 1xflight time rigs)
* T1 - 30km, 34km, 39.5km, 45km
* Javelin - 45km, 52km, 59km, 68km
* Rage - 25km, 29km, 32km, 37km

Golem - Torp with 2x T2 missile speed rigs + 5% missile speed implant
* T1/CN - ~44km
* Javelin - ~65km

CNR - Cruise
* T1 - 265km
* Fury - 199km
* Precision - 132km

CNR - Torp w 2x T1 missile speed rigs + 5% missile speed implant
* T1 - 41km
* Javelin - 62km

When I have Free Time(tm), I'll publish the actual spreadsheet (currently in LibreOffice format.)


[1] YOMDBIOTBW - your opinion may differ, but it's okay to be wrong Bear

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2012-12-23 21:12:20 UTC
Interesting. I didn't think the HAM Tengu would burn through BC's and BS quicker than the HML. I still don't think it is however switching Tengu's from HML to HAM's, unless of course everything is close by.
The one thing you need to bear in mind is that with the HML you will be able to apply full damage at 70km and with HAM's you need to be at 25KM, so if it takes you 20 sec to burn the 50km to get you in range the HML will do it quicker.
I am sure well know this.. just thought I would drop it in for the EFT warriors Blink
But a really nice sheet.
Velarra
#3 - 2012-12-23 22:08:34 UTC
There is as well the question of CNR cargo space for Torpedoes & regardless of CNR/Golem numbers, - how much one enjoys the use of target painters given their cycle times.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#4 - 2012-12-23 23:00:28 UTC
Wow! Tengu rocks so hard.
I mean you kill small rats very fast compared to other ships and also almost the same with some big targets.
The coolest thing is you also fly very fast making this ship #1 missile ship for missions.
Good info!

I wish you could do some comparison like Tengu vs Vargur/Mach :D

Whatever.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-12-24 00:27:22 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Wow! Tengu rocks so hard.
I mean you kill small rats very fast compared to other ships and also almost the same with some big targets.
The coolest thing is you also fly very fast making this ship #1 missile ship for missions.
Good info!

I wish you could do some comparison like Tengu vs Vargur/Mach :D


I wouldn't put it in quite the same league as Mach/Vargur. It's 575 dps (hml, CN) or 628 dps (ham, jav, 3x range rigs) with 4x CN bcs, compared to 1300 dps of Mach/Vargur with 4x RF gyros. Rage ham ranges are far too low to be comparable to the 75km of Mach/Vargur, while still doesn't come close to the dps.

I fly both Mach and Tengu, the difference is visceral.
Pyus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-24 03:33:50 UTC
Helpful research.

I do have some questions as to what other factors might be important to consider in determining the true damage output of these ships/weapon systems. For example, sig radius bloom when NPCs are using MWD? In this instance torps might deal far more damage than HAMs or HMLs and the TTK and number of volleys would therefore be less.

Since Retribution went live, I have never had to use more than two volleys of CN torps (explosive) to down any Angel elite frig including the Viper in the spreadsheet. Also take into consideration that my skills are not maxed - Marauders 4, Guided Missile Precision skill is 4, and no 5% explosion radius implant. Also, I'm only using two meta 4 TPs instead of the RF varieties.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-12-24 05:18:00 UTC
Great info. Thank you so much for the work stoicfaux :)
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#8 - 2012-12-24 07:28:35 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Wow! Tengu rocks so hard.
I mean you kill small rats very fast compared to other ships and also almost the same with some big targets.
The coolest thing is you also fly very fast making this ship #1 missile ship for missions.
Good info!

I wish you could do some comparison like Tengu vs Vargur/Mach :D


I wouldn't put it in quite the same league as Mach/Vargur. It's 575 dps (hml, CN) or 628 dps (ham, jav, 3x range rigs) with 4x CN bcs, compared to 1300 dps of Mach/Vargur with 4x RF gyros. Rage ham ranges are far too low to be comparable to the 75km of Mach/Vargur, while still doesn't come close to the dps.

I fly both Mach and Tengu, the difference is visceral.


Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

Whatever.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#9 - 2012-12-24 09:23:42 UTC
Pyus wrote:
Helpful research.

I do have some questions as to what other factors might be important to consider in determining the true damage output of these ships/weapon systems. For example, sig radius bloom when NPCs are using MWD? In this instance torps might deal far more damage than HAMs or HMLs and the TTK and number of volleys would therefore be less.

Since Retribution went live, I have never had to use more than two volleys of CN torps (explosive) to down any Angel elite frig including the Viper in the spreadsheet. Also take into consideration that my skills are not maxed - Marauders 4, Guided Missile Precision skill is 4, and no 5% explosion radius implant. Also, I'm only using two meta 4 TPs instead of the RF varieties.


Not to mention he is using Thermal on the CNR cruise vs Vipers.

OP: Do you take travel time into account for those fits when you calculate killtime? It seems unreasonable to assume a HAM tengu would be fit with precision rigs when added range gives you more uptime. Unless your fit includes an mwd, at which point things get intresting.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-24 10:53:34 UTC
Be interesting to see a SNI with two painters, also on the CNR, flare & rigor? I thought it's usually 3x rigor, certainly worked better for me.

Also I find it interesting (since I currently am sitting in a CNR) that it MAY be beneficial to ungroup her weapons, for lots of these boats sampled, there's a massive amount of overkill on the final volley from the CNR. Might test that later.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-24 12:15:34 UTC
Excellent work!

Once again, you've proved that close range is 'flying like a man'

Golem remains the king, HAM rage Tengu is closest match.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-12-25 00:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
cute, but I'm appalled the golem is being compared to the tengu. with wasted rigs on torp range. worthless.

you stick a prop mod on it, and move the platform to the pockets. a marauder is not a strategic cruiser; it's a marauder

"look at how much the marauder sucks at being a strategic cruiser!"

you use a tengu in missions when you can't fly a marauder yet. tractor beam range is 48km. rage and you're done. prop mod, kill and salvage missions by the pockets they spawn in.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
stoicfaux
#13 - 2012-12-25 13:40:05 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
cute, but I'm appalled the golem is being compared to the tengu. with wasted rigs on torp range. worthless.

you stick a prop mod on it, and move the platform to the pockets. a marauder is not a strategic cruiser; it's a marauder

"look at how much the marauder sucks at being a strategic cruiser!"

you use a tengu in missions when you can't fly a marauder yet. tractor beam range is 48km. rage and you're done. prop mod, kill and salvage missions by the pockets they spawn in.

HAMs and Torps have the same range plus a HAM Tengu can put out some impressive (kinetic) damage. CNR is cheaper than a Tengu so it's interesting to see if a CNR is a better deal after the HML nerf.

As for the rest of your post, you might want to rethink a few things:

* Prop mod on a Golem? An AB will get you ~360m/s, and an MWD will get you ~1,000m/s. A torpedo with missile speed rigs will go anywhere from 3,000m/s to 5,300m/s. Putting a prop mod on a Golem without missile speed rigs is akin to a baseball pitcher or a cricket bowler crawling along the ground to hand deliver the ball to the batter instead of just throwing it.

* A Golem has a 12 second align time before you flip on the AB or MWD, which then jumps up to 18s. In the time it takes to get up to your (slow) top speed or to make a turn at speed, you could have fired many torp salvos if you had fitted missile speed rigs.

* Without missile speed rigs, rage torps have a ~26km range, and Javelins a ~47km range. Your tractor beams have more range than your weapons do...

* Rage torps? Before Retribution, you needed to land 2-3+ extra TPs on a target to come close to matching the applied damage of a CN torp. After Retribution, it's looking like you need just one extra TP. However, even after Retribution's torp buffs, it looks like Rage torps *might* occasionally save you a volley against the larger, slower battleships. Meaning, the Golem's volley damage is already large enough to the point that the Rage torp's extra 15% damage doesn't seem to save you a volley very often over CN torps.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#14 - 2012-12-25 13:47:45 UTC
mama guru wrote:

Not to mention he is using Thermal on the CNR cruise vs Vipers.

OP: Do you take travel time into account for those fits when you calculate killtime? It seems unreasonable to assume a HAM tengu would be fit with precision rigs when added range gives you more uptime. Unless your fit includes an mwd, at which point things get intresting.

Vipers are weakest to thermal for some reason. The spreadsheet automatically picks the best damage type (unless lock your damage to a specific type such as kinetic for Tengus.)

Missile flight time isn't considered. Given the large number of NPCs in missions, there's not much value.

The reason for including HAMs with precision (aka rigor/flare) rigs was to see if they made enough of a difference in kill times. If I had a dedicated HAM Tengu I would use at least two range rigs.

The MWD HAM Tengu has always intrigued me right up until I look at the Tengu's sig size and shield buffer.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#15 - 2012-12-25 13:52:08 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2012-12-25 14:09:50 UTC
Pyus wrote:
Helpful research.

I do have some questions as to what other factors might be important to consider in determining the true damage output of these ships/weapon systems. For example, sig radius bloom when NPCs are using MWD? In this instance torps might deal far more damage than HAMs or HMLs and the TTK and number of volleys would therefore be less.

I've never seen data on what the actual NPC sig bloom is. If we had that, then i could account for it.

Personally, I've never had much luck with gaming NPC sig bloom. IME, Angel elite frigates were so fast under MWD that they turned off their MWDs early and "coasted" in at fast speed and normal sig size. =(


Quote:
Since Retribution went live, I have never had to use more than two volleys of CN torps (explosive) to down any Angel elite frig including the Viper in the spreadsheet. Also take into consideration that my skills are not maxed - Marauders 4, Guided Missile Precision skill is 4, and no 5% explosion radius implant. Also, I'm only using two meta 4 TPs instead of the RF varieties.


That is interesting. And odd. When I get the time, I'll see if I can replicate it.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#17 - 2012-12-25 14:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.


Ya, it's just I wasted more than 4bil on mods for my Mach and now I was just wondering if there is anything better.

P.S. I actually wanted to fly a Tengu after last patch TD madness, then I read about new Missile Projection mods that are going to be introduced soon. Basically missiles are going to be nerfed hard with this new mod, with TDs affecting them.

Whatever.
Dea della Morte
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-12-25 15:56:43 UTC
First of all, outstanding work from OP, tyvm for the info.

For me though, i think ill stick with my golem + sentries. Just because.... i love my golem :D
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#19 - 2012-12-25 16:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CausticS0da
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.



L2falloff. http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=Falloff.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#20 - 2012-12-25 16:50:52 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.


Ya, it's just I wasted more than 4bil on mods for my Mach and now I was just wondering if there is anything better.

P.S. I actually wanted to fly a Tengu after last patch TD madness, then I read about new Missile Projection mods that are going to be introduced soon. Basically missiles are going to be nerfed hard with this new mod, with TDs affecting them.


You're mad spending that much on mods for a Mach. Past the gyros you only need gist b type AB and pith b type booster. Anything else is over tanked. If you used one you'd realise this.
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