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Hisec carries the weight of every problem this game has
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Frying Doom
#21 - 2012-12-23 21:36:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
First off, hisec is clearly intended to be a sort of starting zone
Not really, no. The staring systems are intended as starting zones — highsec is intended to be a region with its own set of rules and cost/benefit calculations.

Quote:
They learn the ropes in hisec over a few months like they're supposed to, but when they should move on to real PvP areas, like lowsec or 0.0, they instead demand CCP make hisec suit all their needs.
For one, highsec is as much a “real PvP area” as any other part of space; for another, no, they simply ask that highsec has the same kind of risk/reward structure as those other areas because if it doesn't, you might as well cut out large portions of the game.

Quote:
Another group are the vocal minority of 0.0 players
What makes you think they are a minority?

Quote:
Countless times has their 'advice' been followed and hisec has been nerfed, with more incentive added to 0.0 and elsewhere
Can you cite a single example? How about two? Three?

I don't know why you are arguing the point, as you state that 75% of hi-sec is just Null alts, you are probably arguing with a Null player.

And if you are correct and all of those people in high leave then loss of 25% of the player base would hurt CCP but then by your calculations the rest are probably from WHs and lo-sec alts.

So the game would only lose a few percent of the players by your calculations, so why argue with someone who is obviously just a figment of your imagination?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-12-23 21:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
I don't know why you are arguing the point, as you state that 75% of hi-sec is just Null alts, you are probably arguing with a Null player.
I'm arguing the point because it seems to have little to back it up (much like your claim right now) and yet is thrown out there as if it were an undeniable fact. It's pretty much the same reason I always argue such claims.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#23 - 2012-12-23 21:41:59 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
/facepalm.

Secondly, if you moved most/all trade, production lines and research facilities to null-sec, taking and holding and raiding null-sec space would be much more interesting.

For people in null sec.

Null lo insists hi sec resembles null/lo once again. Luckily CCP knows that if they grant your wish they will have to close their doors not too long after.

You might want to read Jita Park speakers corner and the CSMs comments on their derg of a set of ideas and how it is along the same lines as what CCP is thinking, before you go on.

I prefer actions than words which are usually empty. To that I point towards Retribution.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-12-23 21:51:53 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
First off, hisec is clearly intended to be a sort of starting zone, or at least as much of a starting zone as this game can have. You will never be completely safe there, but it provides a less hostile environment for people to learn the game, a place for people who don't want to join a large alliance, and a place for people who don't mind making far less isk with more safety than you can find elsewhere. It could also be seen as a waiting room, where people spend time looking for the next lowsec or 0.0 corp they want to join. Hisec serves all these purposes in the game wonderfully.

Every day people join EVE with PvP on their mind. They learn the ropes in hisec over a few months like they're supposed to, but when they should move on to real PvP areas, like lowsec or 0.0, they instead demand CCP make hisec suit all their needs. There's already an abundance of empty PvP areas, but they just ignore them, and instead of developing ways to make them more enjoyable, they're trying to invent ways to make hisec into another hardcore PvP zone. Hisec is the one area which serves its purpose perfectly. If we're going to talk about improving PvP in this game, lets talk about making the serious PvP areas serve their purpose.

Another group are the vocal minority of 0.0 players. Everyone knows the many reasons why 0.0 is bad, and why it's empty, but in the mind of the few who live in 0.0 all the blame for 0.0 being empty falls squarely on hisec and the people there. Countless times has their 'advice' been followed and hisec has been nerfed, with more incentive added to 0.0 and elsewhere, and it has never even helped slightly. It's still being suggested even after repeated failures. That is ridiculous. People fully know they can make more isk anywhere outside of hisec, they just don't because everywhere outside of hisec is so terribly broken, or chronically unfun.

So i think after 10 years of heaping blame on hisec and expecting it to solve all our problems, it's time we begin to look at the entire game, or things will continue exactly as they have for so long already.

IMO the main reason Null is so hard t live in as a small entity, has to do with the Map and its search functions.

you can filter it to show you close toexactly how many players have been in ANY given system voer X amount of time, how many ship kills, pirate kills, pod deaths, manufacturing, jumps, everything.

IMO this is almost as OP as local, as the second someone starts living in "your space" you know about it and can go camp their asses until they are forced to ahdn over 90% fo their income to you, or ehad back to highsec.

This is a serious issue in my perspective. (hell, i know ive sued it to calculate safe routes through lowsec, and primo gank systems in low aswell)

Nah. I think they make it too hard to be self sufficient in null.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-12-23 21:56:40 UTC
I feel like I should say something here.

but what the point when another headless Nerf Herder will just post a similar thread not to long from now.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Frying Doom
#26 - 2012-12-23 21:57:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I don't know why you are arguing the point, as you state that 75% of hi-sec is just Null alts, you are probably arguing with a Null player.
I'm arguing the point because it seems to have little to back it up (much like your claim right now) and yet is thrown out there as if it were an undeniable fact. It's pretty much the same reason I always argue such claims.

It is you who claims that 75% of hi-sec are Null sec alts, not me.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#27 - 2012-12-23 21:59:52 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
/facepalm.

Secondly, if you moved most/all trade, production lines and research facilities to null-sec, taking and holding and raiding null-sec space would be much more interesting.

For people in null sec.

Null lo insists hi sec resembles null/lo once again. Luckily CCP knows that if they grant your wish they will have to close their doors not too long after.

You might want to read Jita Park speakers corner and the CSMs comments on their derg of a set of ideas and how it is along the same lines as what CCP is thinking, before you go on.

I prefer actions than words which are usually empty. To that I point towards Retribution.

On that we await the CSM minutes.

Unless that is NDAed out, so it will just have to be wait for the next patch, oh if you did not notice Retribution was all about PvP, oh and giving NPCs some brains.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#28 - 2012-12-23 22:13:28 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

IMO the main reason Null is so hard t live in as a small entity, has to do with the Map and its search functions.

you can filter it to show you close toexactly how many players have been in ANY given system voer X amount of time, how many ship kills, pirate kills, pod deaths, manufacturing, jumps, everything.

IMO this is almost as OP as local, as the second someone starts living in "your space" you know about it and can go camp their asses until they are forced to ahdn over 90% fo their income to you, or ehad back to highsec.

This is a serious issue in my perspective. (hell, i know ive sued it to calculate safe routes through lowsec, and primo gank systems in low aswell)


It might have taken ten years for the masses to put it together but that has been a detriment EVE has had from day one. All conflict relies on our willingness to make mistakes. Knowing or oblivious to those mistakes. The willingness to commit to the battle you have no chance of winning. It's the back bone of this forum and the troll thread. The hope that you slip up. As you can see by active users here and PvP in EVE it's the same people making decisions based on what they can afford to lose and most of EVE simply stopped exposing them selves to the no win scenario.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-12-23 22:17:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
It is you who claims that 75% of hi-sec are Null sec alts, not me.
Seeing as how I've never made that claim, it pretty much leaves you as the only option.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-12-23 22:20:19 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
First off, hisec is clearly intended to be a sort of starting zone, or at least as much of a starting zone as this game can have. You will never be completely safe there, but it provides a less hostile environment for people to learn the game, a place for people who don't want to join a large alliance, and a place for people who don't mind making far less isk with more safety than you can find elsewhere. It could also be seen as a waiting room, where people spend time looking for the next lowsec or 0.0 corp they want to join. Hisec serves all these purposes in the game wonderfully.

Every day people join EVE with PvP on their mind. They learn the ropes in hisec over a few months like they're supposed to, but when they should move on to real PvP areas, like lowsec or 0.0, they instead demand CCP make hisec suit all their needs. There's already an abundance of empty PvP areas, but they just ignore them, and instead of developing ways to make them more enjoyable, they're trying to invent ways to make hisec into another hardcore PvP zone. Hisec is the one area which serves its purpose perfectly. If we're going to talk about improving PvP in this game, lets talk about making the serious PvP areas serve their purpose.

Another group are the vocal minority of 0.0 players. Everyone knows the many reasons why 0.0 is bad, and why it's empty, but in the mind of the few who live in 0.0 all the blame for 0.0 being empty falls squarely on hisec and the people there. Countless times has their 'advice' been followed and hisec has been nerfed, with more incentive added to 0.0 and elsewhere, and it has never even helped slightly. It's still being suggested even after repeated failures. That is ridiculous. People fully know they can make more isk anywhere outside of hisec, they just don't because everywhere outside of hisec is so terribly broken, or chronically unfun.

So i think after 10 years of heaping blame on hisec and expecting it to solve all our problems, it's time we begin to look at the entire game, or things will continue exactly as they have for so long already.


A great example of hi-sec people being to narrow minded to udnerstand what's really going on. This is nothing more than another "buff null sec/why won't you leave us alone" cry.

You can all see this by the posters insistance that "null sec is empty" (7 million kills over the period ccp surveyed say otherwise), which is just more of the "why are you trying to push me into null sec" paranoia crap.

Sure, a few game mechanics things could be better all over, but that's not the problem. the problem is human nature. Human nature is the reason most MMOs are carebear flavored theme parks, and why ANY sandbox-sih pvp centered game will be a niche. Most gamers are risk averse people who'se ego's can't stand even the THOUGHT of loss.

All of this is why ANY attempt to incentivise people to leave high sec or try pvp or go to dangerous places will do NOTHING but ruin the whole game for people who actually like pvp (we've seen this with FW, CCP attempts to "reward" FW players have thus far resulted in nothing more than farming while AVOIDING conflict).

This is why I always explain to hi-sec people that no one gives a damn about where or how they play. No we aren't looking for more targets (especially since we can get at you people in high sec anyways). no we aren't looking for more rewards for our gameplay choices (ie the choice to leave null sec). As much as you want to think it, it just isn't true.

We want to be able to go to null sec and play there with like minded people without having to be enslaved to the whims of people who cry if you bump them. We want to be able to go to null sec and forget high sec even exists except when we have X-type loot to sell (lol). And we want fairness, the "rewards" we get out in null are fine, but the fact that we can get damn near as much in high sec with a high degree of safety is wrong (and why many of us have high sec alts).

After my years in this game, I know this will fly completely over the heads of the High Sec shallow ego crowd that needs to believe that "we just don't like their play style", but it's the truth, we don't give a crap about you, we give a crap about out game, and protected themepark space should not enjoy so many advantages as it does now.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#31 - 2012-12-23 22:31:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
the fact that we can get damn near as much in high sec with a high degree of safety is wrong


interesting opinion
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-12-23 22:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Claudia Ishtar wrote:
I've been watching this highsec/nullsec back and forth for a while now and something that is always mentioned is high sec as a kiddie pool.

It's supposed to be some sort of self-fulfilling prophesy:

1. Hi sec is obviously supposed to be a noob-only zone.

2. It isn't.

3. Therefore, CCP should obviously make it a noob-only zone. See (1) for reason.

This "logic" makes sense to them.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#33 - 2012-12-23 22:31:43 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
After my years in this game, I know this will fly completely over the heads of the High Sec shallow ego crowd that needs to believe that "we just don't like their play style", but it's the truth, we don't give a crap about you, we give a crap about out game, and protected themepark space should not enjoy so many advantages as it does now.



You realize you just said "I don't care what anyone in high sec thinks, high sec needs to be nerfed because it ruins my game in null sec."

You also threw in an insult about the ego's of people, because they disagree with you. I'm going to assume you're not much for diplomacy either.

I don't even care about the carebearing of the various security spaces, but some of these arguments are funny. Keep up the rants!

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Frying Doom
#34 - 2012-12-23 23:50:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It is you who claims that 75% of hi-sec are Null sec alts, not me.
Seeing as how I've never made that claim, it pretty much leaves you as the only option.

My apologies I must be getting you and another faceless Null sec supporter confused.

Glad you agree that Null sec is only 20% of the population of EvE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-12-24 00:12:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Countless times has their 'advice' been followed and hisec has been nerfed, with more incentive added to 0.0...



What was the last buff/incentive added to 0.0?

Do you mean besides the welfare payments, oh sorry I meant tech moons?


And before tech moons it was some other moons. So overall, something that is not a step forward or backwards, but a step sideways. CCP didn't add more choice moons, they just changed which ones were the best.

Also, tell me about all the tech moons in Delve and Catch that TEST and friends are towering. After all, the entirety of nullsec is on the tech moon tit.

Quote:

But actually the last one I believe was

Quote:

Time Dilation – How’s That Going?
Reported by CCP Veritas | 2012.02.28 12:31:50

Since Time Dilation (TiDi) was activated fully on Jan 18th, we’ve seen it trigger in many different places, from Jita to some of the biggest spaceship slugfests we’ve seen in some time. In all cases, it has kicked in appropriately when the server node has become overloaded, keeping things running responsively and sanely.

I want to share my favorite two graphs of the past few weeks with you folks. They display the amount of time dilation in red against the right axis with how delayed module processing is in blue along the left axis, in seconds.


While it occurs in Jita rarely, it is a null sec feature.



You mean they made the huge fleets that they have always been advertising forever actually workable. It isn't a perfect solution, but it is better than completely lagging out.



So the great Frying Doom can only find CCP moving the deck chairs around on the titanic (shifting moon goo bottlenecks) and making an activity they promised from day 1 kinda-sorta doable buy lagging everyone equally.

Over the past year, the only resources CCP has devoted to nullsec is TiDi.

Meanwhile, the rest of the game got Faction Warfare, Crimewatch, a new bounty system, several Wardec changes, buffed mining ships and an easymode mining frigate for the newbies.

Anyone else want to claim nullsec is tying up developer resources or getting manna from heaven?




PS; No faceless nullsecer made the 75% of highsec alts claim. It was a highsec defender using an outrageous strawman about isk sinks if 75% of industry alts moved to nullsec.
Jantunen the Infernal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-12-24 00:32:37 UTC
Please, do list some of the nerfs to highsec and buffs to nullsec. I'm genuinely interested in seeing if you can find anything major.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-12-24 00:58:01 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
First off, hisec is clearly intended to be a sort of starting zone, .


It's always amusing when people defeat their own argument in the first sentence.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#38 - 2012-12-24 01:04:14 UTC
Null sec... Bah.

They always flee when we appear on local from a wormhole in their system.


You think as high-sec as a starting location ? I think that most people should spend more time in it before thinking of them as ready for what's next..

---

More seriously, High sec is a huge part of the game, far more than the "starting location" thing. Different playstyles, different challenges. Embrace the difference, don't denigrate it.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-12-24 01:04:50 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
First off, hisec is clearly intended to be a sort of starting zone, .


It's always amusing when people defeat their own argument in the first sentence.


No matter what you want to read into it, highsec is the starting zone. You can choose which NPC empire you start in, but your first step into Eve Online is always in a highsec school station.

I don't think it should be strictly a newbie starting area, but it does happen to be where new players start, and many of the rules in place in highsec are deliberately to protect players from themselves and other players.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-12-24 01:14:51 UTC
Jantunen the Infernal wrote:
Please, do list some of the nerfs to highsec and buffs to nullsec. I'm genuinely interested in seeing if you can find anything major.



Off the top of my head, their was the incursion nerf, which a lot of people viewed as being aimed at highsec incursion runners, and some people (station campers) thought the wardec changes were a nerf to their profession.