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REMOVING ICE FROM HIGH SEC WTF

Author
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#81 - 2011-10-19 15:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Emma Royd
Freaking forum ate my post Cry I'm sick of this forum, I spent ages comprising a reply, and it's disappeared, I should have ctrl+c'd it but meh.


Basically, there's no rationale for removing sec status, otherwise CCP would have done it already, but they know where their bread is buttered. They know that if they removed it, they'd lose loads of subscribers as the majority of players live in empire (hell, there's probably more in jita than in a lot of 0.0 regions Lol)

You could tank a mack, but with no police there's no point, once you're scrammed you're screwed.

D-Scan is useless, it reports what the scan picked up at that time, so the cloaky ship, sat next to you won't show and unless you're watching the screen 100% of the time, you'll probably miss the 5-10 seconds it takes to uncloak, lock and scram you while his mate comes in and kills you.

Safespots are useless, unless you know you're going to get attacked, you can't warp off. It's not like exhumers are agile ships, even if you're aligned They still take time to get up to warp speed.

People will get bored of replacing ships and not being able to earn a honest buck, so will quit.


If you're going to make everything nullsec, remove local, and make it a giant free for all.

Death to all botters and macroers, ccp should spend more time working out how to stop them.


erm, I think that was about it, in a condensed form.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#82 - 2011-10-20 18:20:14 UTC
If you really want Ice removed from Hisec then it should be added to WH space. I mean why not... why not have a grav field with ice in it?

For those complaining about bots - they exist is null as well so this would do nothing to change that. If you want to solve some of the botting just remove local from null. I have yet to see bots in WH space...maybe there is a reason Shocked But I strongly suspect all the null sec alliances would cry about that... afterall none of them bot anything.


Angelo Doelman
Bacon Diplomacy Project
#83 - 2011-10-20 23:50:37 UTC
OSGOD wrote:
**** wits that are carrying on about the market mine the ice urself ,i for one will seek legal advice on this issue if it goes any further than the forums :

1: i pay 260+ dollars a year for this game and the last time i payed my sub i never ticked any box that siad all my time a sp invested in ice mining to fuel my pos are now going to be wasted becuase ice is going to low sec or WH`s .

Here is your legal opinion (courtesy of a game lawyer who gave a presentation on this at Eve Vegas 2011): You pay CCP for game time. In fact CCP makes it VERY clear you are simply purchasing TIME and nothing else. (Read the fine print for the terms of service.)

Since TIME is all you purchase, an often used example of threatening to sue a game maker is: if your ship gets ganked in highsec and you cry that you are going to sue CCP for allowing your uber leet pee vee eee nightmare to be ganked.. you’ll get laughed out of court because CCP will say “we provided you your time in the game. The fact that you were logged into the game and were flying it when it was ganked is proof enough.” And that will be the end of it.

Same will go if they move all ice out of highsec. They’re still haven't stopped providing you your paid for time in the game world.

So. Good luck.


Orion Auros
Quantum Flux Industries
#84 - 2011-10-25 16:33:55 UTC
Angelo Doelman wrote:
OSGOD wrote:
**** wits that are carrying on about the market mine the ice urself ,i for one will seek legal advice on this issue if it goes any further than the forums :

1: i pay 260+ dollars a year for this game and the last time i payed my sub i never ticked any box that siad all my time a sp invested in ice mining to fuel my pos are now going to be wasted becuase ice is going to low sec or WH`s .

Here is your legal opinion (courtesy of a game lawyer who gave a presentation on this at Eve Vegas 2011): You pay CCP for game time. In fact CCP makes it VERY clear you are simply purchasing TIME and nothing else. (Read the fine print for the terms of service.)

Since TIME is all you purchase, an often used example of threatening to sue a game maker is: if your ship gets ganked in highsec and you cry that you are going to sue CCP for allowing your uber leet pee vee eee nightmare to be ganked.. you’ll get laughed out of court because CCP will say “we provided you your time in the game. The fact that you were logged into the game and were flying it when it was ganked is proof enough.” And that will be the end of it.

Same will go if they move all ice out of highsec. They’re still haven't stopped providing you your paid for time in the game world.

So. Good luck.




To add to this. The EVE Online Terms of Service state the following:

"CCP MAY FIND IT NECESSARY ON OCCASION TO MAKE CHANGES TO OR RESET CERTAIN PARAMETERS OF THE PERSISTENT GAME WORLD MECHANICS, INTERFACE OR FEATURES OF EVE ONLINE IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN GAME BALANCE AND ENHANCE PLAYABILITY OR PERFORMANCE FOR ITS SUBSCRIBERS. THESE CHANGES MAY AFFECT OR CAUSE SETBACKS FOR THE CHARACTERS YOU’VE CREATED.

THESE RULES MAY BE REVISED AT ANY TIME. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO REVIEW THEM OCCASIONALLY TO ENSURE THAT YOU ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE RULES, POLICIES AND AGREEMENTS DESIGNATED BY CCP.

BY SUBSCRIBING TO EVE ONLINE, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE AT LEAST 18 YEARS OF AGE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU AGREE TO THESE RULES AND WILL ABIDE BY THEM."

Here is a link to said Terms of Service.

Though I don't think it would be a good idea to move Ice to Null, I believe that your post is nothing more than whining. Please read the fine print of what you're agreeing to before you start threatening.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-10-26 00:33:43 UTC
Hmmmmm.....

Leave the ice belts where they are, but make it less possible for them botters.
First, make them ice roids deplete like all other ore-roids. The way it is now, you can mine te same rock for years. I don't think I ever saw a bot miner in a ore belt mining veldspar or scordite.
Second, make the complete belt show up after downtime on another spot in the system or random in a few systems next to each other, real miners will search the belt. Botters will get problems with their programs.
Third, although I'm not mining 23/7, I'm almost every day a bit of time in a ice belt. But the hour varies due to my irl job. But still I see always a number of the same names in their Mack's/orca's. Usually they don't respond when I type in Local. I guess CCP can have people of their own to search it out who them are. That's not my job, don't have the right tools.

Taking ice to Null / low should be a wrong way to deal with bot miners. But maybe there are other reasons why they would change this ice mining thing?
I guess a good part of the bot miners do this for a nice income to buy their plex aka play time.............Roll
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#86 - 2011-10-26 00:51:37 UTC
Quote:
i have a lot isk and time in skills invested in mining ice for my POS


Well, at the very least...
Exhumers V - 1,280,000
Mining Barge V - 1,024,000
Astrogeology V - 768,000
Mining V - 256,000
Ice Harvesting V - 256,000

For the sake of your arguement, assume:
Hydromagnetic Physics IV - 226,000
Refining V - 256,000
Refinery Efficiency V - 768,000
Ice Processing V - 1,280,000 (why?)
Cybernetics V - 768,000

Total skill points: 6,882,000

I've got more than that in Gunnery alone and I can barely hit anything.

Right. Real lot invested there, isn't it. Especially since none of those skills (at all, not even just two out of the bunch!) can be used in other areas of gameplay...
Owho
Playing God Enterprises
#87 - 2011-10-31 11:54:09 UTC
I don't mine and I perfer to kill miners, but removing ice from hi-sec will only make CCP lose subs. All CCP needs to do is add a mini game to ice minning. Like having to adjust the mining beams modulation to get full yield. Make the game be something that is random so botters will not be able to just record mouse movements and clicks or sniff pixles. The fix wouldn't completely stop botting as they could ignore the mini game for less yield. CCP could also make it so if you fail you take damage to your miners so in the very least the botters would have to repair every so often making Ice even less profitable. This would also make the whole idea of ice mining a little more enjoyable as you would have something to do for the 10 min cycle.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#88 - 2011-10-31 13:20:10 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Quote:
i have a lot isk and time in skills invested in mining ice for my POS


Well, at the very least...
Exhumers V - 1,280,000
Mining Barge V - 1,024,000
Astrogeology V - 768,000
Mining V - 256,000
Ice Harvesting V - 256,000

For the sake of your arguement, assume:
Hydromagnetic Physics IV - 226,000
Refining V - 256,000
Refinery Efficiency V - 768,000
Ice Processing V - 1,280,000 (why?)
Cybernetics V - 768,000

Total skill points: 6,882,000

I've got more than that in Gunnery alone and I can barely hit anything.

Right. Real lot invested there, isn't it. Especially since none of those skills (at all, not even just two out of the bunch!) can be used in other areas of gameplay...


point of interest -- Hydromagnetic Physics is used in T2 stuff, but otherwise yeah, nothing can be used outside of mining (and/or industry in the case of refining skills)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Chief Guns
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2011-10-31 14:47:03 UTC
Continuing the mini-game idea, why not tie ice mining with probing mechanics?

Keep ice in high-sec but make ice belts a type of mag site. These sites would spawn in the same ice constellations as today and would have a limited amount of ice, respawning in another system in the same constellation once depleted. The sites would be guarded by moderately strong npc's that respawn but have a 5 minute aggro timer. While this is not a foolproof solution to the bot problem (I'll leave it to you to come up with ways for bot handlers to bypass this) it would skew things more in favor of the human player.

To spice things up a bit, low-sec and null-sec fixed ice belts could be kept as is and these ice mag sites made exclusive to high-sec. The backstory justification could be that all the known high-sec ice belts were long depleted and only scattered ice fields remain to be exploited by those who can find them. Since low and null have yet to be tapped, fixed ice belts are still available.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#90 - 2011-10-31 16:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Chief Guns wrote:
Continuing the mini-game idea, why not tie ice mining with probing mechanics?

Keep ice in high-sec but make ice belts a type of mag site. These sites would spawn in the same ice constellations as today and would have a limited amount of ice, respawning in another system in the same constellation once depleted. The sites would be guarded by moderately strong npc's that respawn but have a 5 minute aggro timer. While this is not a foolproof solution to the bot problem (I'll leave it to you to come up with ways for bot handlers to bypass this) it would skew things more in favor of the human player.

To spice things up a bit, low-sec and null-sec fixed ice belts could be kept as is and these ice mag sites made exclusive to high-sec. The backstory justification could be that all the known high-sec ice belts were long depleted and only scattered ice fields remain to be exploited by those who can find them. Since low and null have yet to be tapped, fixed ice belts are still available.


You're forgetting what the stated intent was with regards to taking ice our of high sec... to get more people into null space. Changing how ice is harvested in high has nothing to do with that... that's not the perceived problem. The perceived problem is not enough people in null, and the imagined solution was "resource redistribution" in order to get people into null. Of course, they forget that people are in null because they want to be and in high because they want to be. Taking away ice won't make null attractive to those with no desire to go there. They'll either do something else or quit. Then when pos fuel supply crashes taking the economy with it... well, it won't be good for subscriptions.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#91 - 2011-11-01 18:34:25 UTC
Emma Royd wrote:
Freaking forum ate my post Cry I'm sick of this forum, I spent ages comprising a reply, and it's disappeared, I should have ctrl+c'd it but meh..



that's why I always use notepad to type out my post now.. I'll clean it up in the forum edit.. but the forums have just eaten my posts too many times.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#92 - 2011-11-01 18:36:52 UTC
Chief Guns wrote:

Keep ice in high-sec but make ice belts a type of mag site. .



Mag site? shouldn't they be grav sites?

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Wind Slave
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-11-06 13:49:32 UTC
I see a lot of i***ts that use the expression "carebear tears"... but hey, this game is full of not so bright ppl...

Some (I don't really think so...) miners in 0.0 would make some money out of this.. but 0.0 Alliances are not built around mining, and will probably never be. They might rent the system, but they will definitively not protect it properly therefore most of the carebears that would or will move to 0.0 will move back to high sec and do something else.

Mining Ice in 0.0 or low sec is expensive and risky, most of the miners will not find that interesting
Moving Ice out of 0.0 is pretty hard due to the m3... A jump freighter is not really useful for doing that due to the low capacity.
These all will result in an undeserved market and prices will double or triple or more.
(just look at what effect goons had with their campaign against ice miners in Gallente systems, prices doubled over night)

All of the above will result in much higher prices for T2.
I'm not ice mining, but, I'm producing T2 stuff. I need an POS to do inventions, manufacturing, copying and so in.
If the prices of ice will go up... I will have to pay more to keep my POS running in order to produce the goods (and everyone will).

The math would be (in my opinion) like this:
At best, 1/3 of the miners will move to low sec or 0.0.. that will happen slowly, probably we will reach that in 6 months or so..
So, because of the above we might see a price at around 1500 per isotope.

Then consumtion... a lot of ice is needed in 0.0 and low sec, and it will stay there... probably 1/3 of the total ice is used in 0.0... so.. another 3-400 isk to the price resulting in a price per isotope of around 1800.

Then logistics.. not many people can afford of have the skills for jump freighters.. moving ice will have a significant cost attached to it. Let's say another 30%-40%, also due to the unavailability of so many jump freighters and pilots that can use them. Price: 2520 per isotope.. and this is once the market is rather stable..

Risk: moving ice out of 0.0 or low sec is risky.. some ice might be lost... due to ships destroyed... that can add another 10%.. resulting in something around 2800 isk per isotope.

Now, moving back to T2 prices... they will rise due to several factors:
- More expensive to produce T2 Inventions and then manufacturing (manufacturing lines at stations are not enough and are not efficient) (an increase of about 100% in manufacturing costs, not all costs)
- more expensive to mine T2 materials (an increase in material costs... don;t know, maybe a lot more than 100%... since the main price driver for t2 materials is POS fuel)
- impact in logistics of moving t2 materials out of 0.0... basically capacity will be decreased due to people moving ice out..

and you can fill in the blanks... I'm getting bored of writing this now..

The conclusion, this simple change might impact EVE's economy severely and will impact everyone, not just carebears... also the frustrated guys that always use the expression "carebear tears".. use you're brain for a while and think...
Sephiroth Clone VII
Imperial Dreams
#94 - 2011-11-06 20:14:11 UTC
This won't necessarily help nullsec people either, sure each would be part of a monopoy of one ice type, but who holds all the others?

Also the low number of static ice belts in NPC space will be permacamped 24/7, no other way around it. Minning ores in lowsec in belts is a cakewalk compared with ice.

Ice prices go rocketing. Evidence, gooncusion in gallente space. Now imagine that long term, every space.

Though..... would make using capitals and POS more expensive be good or bad?

If they remove it from highsec then they really need newer less static sources, im willing to trade using limitless resources in one spot for multiple safer spots that deplete over time.

It would change allot of things, it would create chaos. It wouldn't make the game boring encouraging less bots for key resources.

Ryllic Sin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#95 - 2011-11-06 22:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryllic Sin
Ingvar Angst wrote:

You're forgetting what the stated intent was with regards to taking ice our of high sec... to get more people into null space. Changing how ice is harvested in high has nothing to do with that... that's not the perceived problem. The perceived problem is not enough people in null, and the imagined solution was "resource redistribution" in order to get people into null. Of course, they forget that people are in null because they want to be and in high because they want to be. Taking away ice won't make null attractive to those with no desire to go there. They'll either do something else or quit.


Exactly. It doesn't appear to of been thought through at all.

There is a thread somewhere that bascially asks why people mine when it earns relatively little in ISK, the answers were along the lines of:

- It fitted in with peoples RL when they couldn't give full attention to the game.
- It is a great activity if they want to chat.

Moving the Ice is not going to move miners, as it basically ruins their playstyle, so most will either mine something else, do something else in hi-sec or most likely quit, and with Skyrim, SWTOR, BF3, etc they are already enough reasons to quit, they don't need another reason.

Nor will it solve the bot problem as bots are not restricted to hi-sec, despite what certain hypocrites who are members of alliances that run bots or rent out space to botters would have people believe.

If people are getting bored in low/null sec because of low population then perhaps those who inhabit low/null sec need to adapt and find ways of encouraging people to go there.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#96 - 2011-11-08 10:25:26 UTC
My cup o' tears runneth over.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#97 - 2011-11-09 21:17:19 UTC
Removing ice from high-sec would just make low-sec more interesting and low-sec ice mining corporations would become visible.

Why do you not want Ice fields moved to Low-sec? Forget botting; It's just not good for the game.
DigDoug
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2011-11-10 01:01:13 UTC
The part that annoys me to no end is this whole CCP is trying to get people into Null Sec. They should trade mark that instead of "Coming Soon", as it has been pushed and pushed and used as a justification for changes (enacted and merely suggested since 2003).

I live in Null Sec. I have operations in High Sec and I travel between the two worlds consistently. I say this so that my viewpoint isn't misconstrued as a coming from someone who wishes to only live in highsec and be left alone.

That being said, let’s take a look at the whole "Trying to get more people into Null Sec".

The assumption implied by this statement is that there are not enough people in Null Sec. I challenge the validity of that statement. I challenge it because the term 'enough' is relative, i.e., in the eye of the beholder. From my perspective and point of view, there are plenty of people in Null Sec. In fact, sometimes I wish they'd go away. You may think that from your point of view there aren't enough, and it's valid, nobody can prove you wrong because quite simply, "enough" isn't a tangible variable that can be defined.

My real angst at this over the years is that I do not like it when people I pay money to attempt to make me do something. I pay money, I choose what I do, and if anything, CCP should respond to my wants and desires, not the other way around. I don't pay for Eve Online so that the developer and push me into playing the game in a way I do not want to play the game. After all, is this a sandbox or is it not a sandbox. You can't be 'sort of' in terms of being a sandbox. You are, or you aren't. Right now they're a sandbox with a giant cat turd in the middle of it. They like to throw the term around and use it to define Eve, but in actuality, what is sand boxy about pushing people into Null Sec. I went into Null Sec when *I* wanted to go there, not because of some change CCG made. Trying to make your customer do something you want them to do is an inherently flawed and eventually doomed business model.

What this reminds me of are those people who have to talk bad about someone else in an attempt to make themselves look better. In much the same way CCP seems to think they have to take something away from High Sec in order to make Null Sec more appealing. To operate in this way is in essence just laziness. Basically, they can't be bothered to invent new Null Sec specific activities, so instead they tinker around with the idea of taking things from somewhere else.

What is really sad about this kind of thinking is that it is pervasive at CCP and you can see the effects of it in their oft championed 'Winter Expansion'. Look at the super cap nerf. It's just being lazy. You don't have to nerf Super Capitals. Instead, be creative, inventive. Add to our options to deal with things that have been shown to be unbalanced, don't limit what is already in place.

The other thing that is sad is that this post which attempts to convey something meaningful to CCP, in the end is pointless and will amount to absolutely nothing as it is lost in the shuffle, dismissed, critiqued and ultimately flamed without ever really being read by anyone at CCP with an open mind. Just like thousands of other forum posts. And they can't figure out why a lot of us are angry. It's a mystery.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#99 - 2011-11-10 01:53:07 UTC
lremember if you buy a plex it's because someone bought it with money and put it on the market. if everyone was buying plex with isk then there wouldn't be very many plexes on sale. so in other words someone else is just paying your subscription fee. ccp isn't taking a hit at all or gaining anything by removing ice from high sec. infact it will give you ice miners more profit.
Brisco County
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2011-11-11 05:39:28 UTC
I hope to god they go through with removing ice from high-sec.

Now they just need to nerf drone poo and mission loot reprocessing and I MIGHT actually mine something.