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PVP vs PVA "To cloak or not to Cloak, that is the Question!"
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BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#1 - 2012-12-20 06:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: BD Bear
According to the new crime watch: EVE Online offers freedom of choice. Choose to protect. Choose to build. Choose to destroy. Choose to subjugate others. Well It's quite hard for the independent authority of a null sec system in eve, to act or react accordingly. When you can jump into any null sec system, activate you'r cloak and just sit there.

So how can CCP give us as 0.0 residents a way to prevent this?

first of CCP can give the Cloaking Device a cycle timeout:

If you'r idle for more than 5 minutes in a null-sec system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance. You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

or Alternatively:

if you'r idle for more than 5 minutes You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

Macros will be a issue, but still there will be a 1 minute window every 5 minutes to scan down the macro-camper. And that is way better than what we got today

secondly CCP can add a a intruder flag to Crime watch

Intruder – This Pilot have Entered a system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance . If a pilot logs off while this flag is active, their ship and pod will remain in space until the timer expires.

Timer should be 15 Minutes. if this happens during downtime, you'r timer starts after downtime.

Person versus person is way more fun than Person versus away from keyboard
Luka Datitties
Star-Gate Command
#2 - 2012-12-20 06:21:06 UTC
Why not just make cloaks burn fuel?
How big is your cargohold?

If a guy is in system for a really long time cloaked up at least you know he's in a hauler and can't lock you in time to hold point.
Besina Echerie
Vermona Collective
#3 - 2012-12-20 06:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Besina Echerie
Or, since an afk cloaked ship is by definition not doing a damned thing, just keep flying cautiously like you were supposed to be doing to begin with and quit with your risk averse whining worthy of a highsec carebear. At least highsec miners don't feel like they are entitled to the entire system, and I haven't seen much lately in the way of whining about gankers in highsec, save for those who are so new they were completely unaware it could happen.

This means that nullsec residents are being even more whiny and entitled than the people who sit in highsec all day and dock up if they get wardecced.

Seriously, when highsec carebears are harder than you? You need to harden up.
BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#4 - 2012-12-20 07:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: BD Bear
Besina Echerie wrote:
Or, since an afk cloaked ship is by definition not doing a damned thing, just keep flying cautiously like you were supposed to be doing to begin with and quit with your risk averse whining worthy of a highsec carebear. At least highsec miners don't feel like they are entitled to the entire system, and I haven't seen much lately in the way of whining about gankers in highsec, save for those who are so new they were completely unaware it could happen.

This means that nullsec residents are being even more whiny and entitled than the people who sit in highsec all day and dock up if they get wardecced.

Seriously, when high-sec care-bears are harder than you? You need to harden up.


Every ship in eve is a potential risk. Except if your cloaked and far away from anything that can decloak you. If you'r going to be in a country without permission, expect to get thrown out. The same policy should be active in eve;)

In high sec you got concord (It's there job to keep them safe, but in zero that's you or your alliance's job. it's kinda hard to to that job if you cant attack if someone uses the PVA style against you) And i do not mine or mind hostiles in local. What frustrates me is that you'r not able to do anything about these cloaked pilots. And if they are not doing a damned thing, something that only applies to 50% of the AFK campers. Why let them be there in the first place.

Besina Echerie I guess your one of those who enjoy the play style person versus away from keyboard more than many of the other enjoyable play styles in eve, since your so negative toward this idea.

I don't wish this was implemented in eve to make eve easier to play. I want this to encourage more PVP.

tho thanks for a free bump;)

Luka Datitties wrote:
Why not just make cloaks burn fuel?
How big is your cargohold?

If a guy is in system for a really long time cloaked up at least you know he's in a hauler and can't lock you in time to hold point.


I think this will make it hard for those who run black operations. They are dependent of there cloak, and an decloak timer would be more in there favor since they are behind the wheels when they play.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-12-20 09:21:36 UTC
AFK cloaking is not a problem, it is an ad hoc solution to the real problem, and that is local.

Remove Local, problem solved
Besina Echerie
Vermona Collective
#6 - 2012-12-20 09:26:14 UTC
No, I don't fly a cloakie, I just think that it's silly that nullsec pilots are being more risk-averse than highsec miners.
Yeah, "if you're in a country, expect to get tossed out", except that lots and lots of people do in fact stay in countries without permission for a very long time. If they don't DO anything that gets them caught (like, you know, attack people and get shot out of the sky), they just never get found. And everyone just pretty much copes with that fact.

If someone decloaks and starts blowing things up, the alliance can smack them down while they try to make their getaway. That seems like protection to me. That's your CONCORD. You're in 0.0, you're not supposed to be able to be safer than the miners in 1.0 empire space who are, lets face it, surrounded by hundreds of potential gankers at all times and somehow manage not to have a snit fit.
BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#7 - 2012-12-20 09:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: BD Bear
Verity Sovereign wrote:
AFK cloaking is not a problem, it is an ad hoc solution to the real problem, and that is local.

Remove Local, problem solved


I think you need to give a nontechnical explanation Shocked

Besina Echerie wrote:


I agree to disagree whit you. Some people cloak and do surprise attacks, but some just cloak.....

Besina Echerie wrote:
No, I don't fly a cloakie, I just think that it's silly that nullsec pilots are being more risk-averse than highsec miners.


A major difference between null-sec and high sec , are: You make null-sec safe, in high-sec NPC makes it safe for you.

Besina Echerie wrote:

Yeah, "if you're in a country, expect to get tossed out", except that lots and lots of people do in fact stay in countries without permission for a very long time. If they don't DO anything that gets them caught (like, you know, attack people and get shot out of the sky), they just never get found. And everyone just pretty much copes with that fact.


well at least the Immigration authorities in that country have a possibility to find these guys. You have zero possibilities to find a player who are constantly cloaked in the system day in and day out.

I dont want to remove the future of doing backstabbing attacks, what irritates me are those who just log on in a system to **** off those who are in local. If you did that as a Illegal immigration you would have been tossed out from that country faster than you could say pottatoheadtomatopie... If you had done that as a citizen, you would have been warned. And if you ignored those warnings you would have been removed.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#8 - 2012-12-20 10:10:43 UTC
...Also people sitting idle in stations / outposts / POSshields for more than 5 mins should be ejected from that station in whatever ship/pod they currently have active. They should not be allowed to redock for one minute.

This is because they are also showing up on local, not doing anything, and are not able to be warped to / shot at etc.



BTW.... OP is a massive carebear.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#9 - 2012-12-20 12:32:12 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
...Also people sitting idle in stations / outposts / POSshields for more than 5 mins should be ejected from that station in whatever ship/pod they currently have active. They should not be allowed to redock for one minute.

This is because they are also showing up on local, not doing anything, and are not able to be warped to / shot at etc.



BTW.... OP is a massive carebear.


Yea i totally agree, that is if they are not welcome in that stations / outposts / POS!
Besina Echerie
Vermona Collective
#10 - 2012-12-20 19:32:49 UTC
Quote:
Yea i totally agree, that is if they are not welcome in that stations / outposts / POS!

Oh, no, no exceptions, they are on local, so they have to be in space where you can get shot at, only fair.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-12-20 19:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
BD Bear wrote:

secondly CCP can add a a intruder flag to Crime watch

Intruder – This Pilot have Entered a system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance . If a pilot logs off while this flag is active, their ship and pod will remain in space until the timer expires.

Timer should be 15 Minutes. if this happens during downtime, you'r timer starts after downtime.

Person versus person is way more fun than Person versus away from keyboard


This!!! This is the Point... remove the rest.... finally this would put some utility to SOV!!!! Or put combat flag on cloaked ships that are out of their SOV....

I think CCP is searching for this!!!!

Afk cloaking will still happen... but this is a strong hit on it.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2012-12-20 20:04:39 UTC
This is just a start, but letting people clutter up the list in local who CANNOT BE FOUND is making this source of intel questionable at best.

Sure, it's an outpost. The guy in it should not be there, but he is. You can dock, and see him in the list.
What good is local doing us if docked up people can be listed? They ain't even in space to BE found, that's worse than cloaking.
It's ridiculous to suggest we need to camp the outpost in case he decides to undock. Local is not telling us anything useful beyond being in system, and he is using it against the legitimate residents.

Put him on a timer to be undocked automatically, if he makes no actions. This is a PvP game, and his behavior is violating the quality of intel we use.

How are we supposed to play with this threat hanging above our heads?

Also, I want to eliminate POS shields entirely. Too many off grid boosters mucking up things.

And if a pilot enters system that has kill rights on you, by war dec or regular means, only stations owned by your alliance will allow you to dock, otherwise not allowing you to dock in the interests of remaining neutral in a conflict.
You can face them, run in circles from them, or leave the system to avoid them.

D-Scan should allow you to track their IFF signal and get a direction for such targets, creating opportunities for more PvP.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-12-20 20:07:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Verity Sovereign wrote:
AFK cloaking is not a problem, it is an ad hoc solution to the real problem, and that is local.

Remove Local, problem solved

Go play in WH....

ok.. I'm joking...

But Local being used as Intel tool is not god... this tool should be moved to somewhere else. like Revamping directional scanner into a new Intel tool...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Mag's
Azn Empire
#14 - 2012-12-20 20:17:50 UTC
When people AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#15 - 2012-12-20 21:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: BD Bear
Alx Warlord wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
AFK cloaking is not a problem, it is an ad hoc solution to the real problem, and that is local.

Remove Local, problem solved

Go play in WH....

OK.. I'm joking...

But Local being used as Intel tool is not god... this tool should be moved to somewhere else. like Revamping directional scanner into a new Intel tool...


Yea that's actually a cool idea;)

Or you can add cost into the process: create a Probe that use Triangulation to find it's path to do a system it's going to a status scan on.

If your 50 Light year's away, the probe uses 50 minute to find the system it's going to scan. If your 10 light year's away it uses 10 minutes.

System Triangulation Probe level 1-5 5% reduction in travel time pr level.
System Triangulation Probe Range level 1-5: Every skill adds a 10 light years to the probe's max range

And you have to lunch 3 probes at the time, costing lets say 10 mill ISK in total.

But any who to enforce something like this, you need to remove the game futures were you can easy just sit AFK in a system, cloaked.

Removing local in gated system's would be illogical. (since you' kinda own the system, you own the gates.) and the gate's can log in and outgoing traffic and report that back to you. But You should have been able to select who to share this information whit.

If they were to remove local in null-sec, they should only remove it for everyone except those own the system and there allies. But tho on the other hand, if someone entered the system true a wormhole, they would't be seen in local by the system owner until they select to be noticed.

I'm still against passive game play.

Mag's wrote:
When people AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


I cant find any reason to justify why you easily should be able influence the safety of a system, if all you do are typing you'r username and password, as well as selecting char once a day. Goes for every were in eve.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2012-12-20 21:53:58 UTC
BD Bear wrote:
I cant find any reason to justify why you easily should be able influence the safety of a system, if all you do are typing you'r username and password, as well as selecting char once a day. Goes for every were in eve.

I don't need a cloak to create that effect.

I can sit docked in an outpost. To counter this, either the exit must be watched non stop, or someone must dock so they can keep eyes on the guest list. I could pop out at any point otherwise.

I can grab a very fast ship, and point it in a straight line to some open area, so in the event someone tries to scan me down, bu the time they get remotely close I am somewhere else.

How many pilots just assume someone is cloaked because noone reports seeing them directly?

Warp your pod to a safe, and then fly into open space.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#17 - 2012-12-20 22:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
BD Bear wrote:
Mag's wrote:
When people AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?


I cant find any reason to justify why you easily should be able influence the safety of a system, if all you do are typing you'r username and password, as well as selecting char once a day. Goes for every were in eve.
I can't see any reason why you shouldn't. Many of Eve's key mechanics, are used whilst we are AFK and even logged off.

But I see you avoided the question. So I'll ask again and notice I don't mention cloaks. You don't actually need them for the purpose of AFKing, in this regard.

When people AFK, what mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-12-20 23:55:33 UTC
BD Bear wrote:
According to the new crime watch: EVE Online offers freedom of choice. Choose to protect. Choose to build. Choose to destroy. Choose to subjugate others. Well It's quite hard for the independent authority of a null sec system in eve, to act or react accordingly. When you can jump into any null sec system, activate you'r cloak and just sit there.

So how can CCP give us as 0.0 residents a way to prevent this?

first of CCP can give the Cloaking Device a cycle timeout:

If you'r idle for more than 5 minutes in a null-sec system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance. You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

or Alternatively:

if you'r idle for more than 5 minutes You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

Macros will be a issue, but still there will be a 1 minute window every 5 minutes to scan down the macro-camper. And that is way better than what we got today

secondly CCP can add a a intruder flag to Crime watch

Intruder – This Pilot have Entered a system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance . If a pilot logs off while this flag is active, their ship and pod will remain in space until the timer expires.

Timer should be 15 Minutes. if this happens during downtime, you'r timer starts after downtime.

Person versus person is way more fun than Person versus away from keyboard




Congratulations! you just broke:

Bombers, recons, blackops, cloaky gatecamps, hiding, scouting, probing, running away, roaming, logoff traps, psyops, hunting ratters, blockade runners and every conceivable use of cloaks! I hope you're happy!
BD Bear
Pesslurskolt
#19 - 2012-12-21 02:28:22 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
BD Bear wrote:
According to the new crime watch: EVE Online offers freedom of choice. Choose to protect. Choose to build. Choose to destroy. Choose to subjugate others. Well It's quite hard for the independent authority of a null sec system in eve, to act or react accordingly. When you can jump into any null sec system, activate you'r cloak and just sit there.

So how can CCP give us as 0.0 residents a way to prevent this?

first of CCP can give the Cloaking Device a cycle timeout:

If you'r idle for more than 5 minutes in a null-sec system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance. You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

or Alternatively:

if you'r idle for more than 5 minutes You'r cloaking device gets automatically turned off and you'r not able to turn it on again for 1 minute. The same effect should occur if you turn your cloaking device off/on.

Macros will be a issue, but still there will be a 1 minute window every 5 minutes to scan down the macro-camper. And that is way better than what we got today

secondly CCP can add a a intruder flag to Crime watch

Intruder – This Pilot have Entered a system where the independent authority in that system has 0 or lower in standing toward you, your corporation or your alliance . If a pilot logs off while this flag is active, their ship and pod will remain in space until the timer expires.

Timer should be 15 Minutes. if this happens during downtime, you'r timer starts after downtime.

Person versus person is way more fun than Person versus away from keyboard




Congratulations! you just broke:

Bombers, recons, blackops, cloaky gatecamps, hiding, scouting, probing, running away, roaming, logoff traps, psyops, hunting ratters, blockade runners and every conceivable use of cloaks! I hope you're happy!


Well i do not want to brake there game mechanism. if you read more cearfully you would have seen that i wrote if you'r idle for more than 5 minutes. Idle In describing a person or machine, idle means the act of nothing or no work (for example: "John Smith is an idle person")
Besina Echerie
Vermona Collective
#20 - 2012-12-21 03:15:47 UTC
BD Bear wrote:
Well i do not want to brake there game mechanism. if you read more cearfully you would have seen that i wrote if you'r idle for more than 5 minutes. Idle In describing a person or machine, idle means the act of nothing or no work (for example: "John Smith is an idle person")

Well, a lot of people do that in stations, but they could appear in system at any moment and run amok, so why should there be an exception for them? And remember, you aren't proposing anything sov related for cloaks, so no exceptions on the stations either. If you want to idle, log off or do it in space where you can be scanned down, right?

That makes no sense, does it? And it's all so you can demand greater safety than people in highsec, who are surrounded by non-blue names on local who could all turn out to be a suicide ganker at any time. How to minimize the effects of Concord is already well known. Those poor highsec carebears are so brave to go out mining with no way to see who is in system. It's a bit like being in a wormhole for them, in comparison. So very brave. Kept alive in unknowable hostile territory with only their wits to save them, and no help from watching Local.
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