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So is it safe to say that Amarr ships right now are kinda suck?

Author
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-12-20 23:53:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Scorch is ALL amarr has.. WIthout it, amarr would be even more bad then it is right now.

And what if you remove null and barrage ? Oh ! AC and blasters would be even more bad then it is right now !

Thank you for this revelation : we now nkow that T2 ammo are very useful !

Quote:
The problem is the current game style that is popular is fast/skirmishy, which does not favor amarr

The conclusion to this is NOT that amarr are bad.

IMO, the Amarr problem, if any, is armor tank.


If you take barrage away it doesn't suddenly make all min ships worthless. Neither does null.

Scorch is CCP saying "sorry we made you guys so bad and unimaginative, have this."


Also hear this... Curor sucks, Ashimuu sucks, succubus sucks (lol), phantasm sucks.. Bhaal and Nightmare are good.

Whats the deal with making everything that shoots lasers suck if it isn't a BS?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#22 - 2012-12-20 23:55:30 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Scorch is ALL amarr has.. WIthout it, amarr would be even more bad then it is right now.

And what if you remove null and barrage ? Oh ! AC and blasters would be even more bad then it is right now !

Thank you for this revelation : we now nkow that T2 ammo are very useful !

Quote:
The problem is the current game style that is popular is fast/skirmishy, which does not favor amarr

The conclusion to this is NOT that amarr are bad.

IMO, the Amarr problem, if any, is armor tank.


If you take barrage away it doesn't suddenly make all min ships worthless. Neither does null.

Scorch is CCP saying "sorry we made you guys so bad and unimaginative, have this."


Also hear this... Curor sucks, Ashimuu sucks, succubus sucks (lol), phantasm sucks.. Bhaal and Nightmare are good.

Whats the deal with making everything that shoots lasers suck if it isn't a BS?


There are a lot of amazing sub-BS ships that shoot lasers. Lasers are quite possibly my favorite turret system.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-12-20 23:56:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Scorch is ALL amarr has.. WIthout it, amarr would be even more bad then it is right now.

And what if you remove null and barrage ? Oh ! AC and blasters would be even more bad then it is right now !

Thank you for this revelation : we now nkow that T2 ammo are very useful !

Quote:
The problem is the current game style that is popular is fast/skirmishy, which does not favor amarr

The conclusion to this is NOT that amarr are bad.

IMO, the Amarr problem, if any, is armor tank.


If you take barrage away it doesn't suddenly make all min ships worthless. Neither does null.

Scorch is CCP saying "sorry we made you guys so bad and unimaginative, have this."


Also hear this... Curor sucks, Ashimuu sucks, succubus sucks (lol), phantasm sucks.. Bhaal and Nightmare are good.

Whats the deal with making everything that shoots lasers suck if it isn't a BS?


There are a lot of amazing sub-BS ships that shoot lasers. Lasers are quite possibly my favorite turret system.

-Liang


Care to name some or did you decide to take this secret to the grave?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#24 - 2012-12-21 00:06:07 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Care to name some or did you decide to take this secret to the grave?


Sure, here's a few laser ships I really like:
- Executioner
- Slicer
- Retribution
- Coercer (old one, can't speak to the new one)
- Zealot
- Oracle
- Omen Navy
- Legion
- Phantasm

The Omen is disappointing but passable, and the Harbinger lost a lot of its appeal to me after the introduction of the Oracle. I'm sure there's several more sub-BS that I'm not thinking about right now. Capacitor can be an issue, but them's the breaks. /shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-12-21 01:33:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Care to name some or did you decide to take this secret to the grave?


Sure, here's a few laser ships I really like:
- Executioner
- Slicer
- Retribution
- Coercer (old one, can't speak to the new one)
- Zealot
- Oracle
- Omen Navy
- Legion
- Phantasm

The Omen is disappointing but passable, and the Harbinger lost a lot of its appeal to me after the introduction of the Oracle. I'm sure there's several more sub-BS that I'm not thinking about right now. Capacitor can be an issue, but them's the breaks. /shrug

-Liang


Just because you like them doesn't mean they are any good.

Legion, worst T3 hands down.
Phantasm, one of worst pirate cruisers.
Anything Omen I already said was passable, look at op.
"Coercer (old one)" Old stuff doesn't count.

Everything else is just meh.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#26 - 2012-12-21 01:37:38 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Just because you like them doesn't mean they are any good.

Legion, worst T3 hands down.
Phantasm, one of worst pirate cruisers.
Anything Omen I already said was passable, look at op.
"Coercer (old one)" Old stuff doesn't count.

Everything else is just meh.


The Oracle is "just meh"? You're insane.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-12-21 01:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Liang Nuren wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Just because you like them doesn't mean they are any good.

Legion, worst T3 hands down.
Phantasm, one of worst pirate cruisers.
Anything Omen I already said was passable, look at op.
"Coercer (old one)" Old stuff doesn't count.

Everything else is just meh.


The Oracle is "just meh"? You're insane.

-Liang


Alright I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact the everything else is subpar.

And the funny thing is the Oracle is only good because it uses Battleship guns!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#28 - 2012-12-21 02:00:56 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Alright I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact the everything else is subpar.

And the funny thing is the Oracle is only good because it uses Battleship guns!


If you like the Oracle, there's no good reason you shouldn't like the Zealot and Legion. The Omen and Navy Omen are alright, as you agreed. The Coercer is arguably better now than it was before. The Executioner and Slicer are both ******* amazing and you're crazy to claim otherwise.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#29 - 2012-12-21 02:27:18 UTC
Mother Ducks wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Amarr ships are pretty good right now, good tech2 frigates and the slicer for tech1, good dessies, awesome cruiser lineup (the1/2/3, 100mn ham legion and even without that the lgion is pretty boss), good bcs, awesome battlehships!

Also the ham drake sucks in a pure stat battle, the harbi has more ehp/dps as does the armor cane/myrm!



I don't know how you are fitting your HAM Drake, but mine does more DPS than my armor cane, has more EHP, moves faster, and has better applied damage to BC up (only because I put two webs on my armor cane for cruiser down). HAM drake with scram web will eat any other BC that isn't dropping boosters like dey hot. God forbid I put missile implants in my head and just make it stupid.


Ham drake has aprox 108k ehp and deals 786dps, armor cane has 124k ehp and deals 864dps!
Mother Ducks
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#30 - 2012-12-21 02:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mother Ducks
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mother Ducks wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Amarr ships are pretty good right now, good tech2 frigates and the slicer for tech1, good dessies, awesome cruiser lineup (the1/2/3, 100mn ham legion and even without that the lgion is pretty boss), good bcs, awesome battlehships!

Also the ham drake sucks in a pure stat battle, the harbi has more ehp/dps as does the armor cane/myrm!



I don't know how you are fitting your HAM Drake, but mine does more DPS than my armor cane, has more EHP, moves faster, and has better applied damage to BC up (only because I put two webs on my armor cane for cruiser down). HAM drake with scram web will eat any other BC that isn't dropping boosters like dey hot. God forbid I put missile implants in my head and just make it stupid.


Ham drake has aprox 108k ehp and deals 786dps, armor cane has 124k ehp and deals 864dps!



I want to live in the world where those two stats occur simultaneously for both ships. Maxing out the tanks, jotting those numbers down, then maxing out the gank, and combining the two, do not a ship make.

You insist all these ships are bad because they don't compare to X ship, but again, I ask why all ships need to compete for the same role. Homogenization isn't something that is healthy for this game. All the meta that goes into making the best fleet comps or the best fits shouldn't be able to be applied to every single ship hull for the same role.

Yes, Amarr tend to be heavier with great damage projection. Are you telling me those two don't go together? An "I can't hold you down, but you won't escape my guns" mentality? And even within that, the Navy Slicer both has some of the best damage projection for the frigate class and is one of the fastest non-inty hulls. Quit begging for Amarr to do everything, because they are already great at what they do. And if you really want to be fast, project all the damage, and still be tank, pick a Tengu, because NO ONE has ever done that before.
Otto Weston
Pod Goo Extraction Agency
#31 - 2012-12-21 02:57:01 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Maller isn't "gr8 bait" when everybody who sees a maller instantly screams bait. I would never attack a maller without checking a killboard to see if its bait or not.

Harbinger DPS isn't too high, its mearly okay. Absolution? Since when is 500 dps high? And why would you ever active tank an absolution.. Lol.

Most amarr ships are mearly okay. Only a few can have a chance at even doing anything that isn't fleet work. It kinda sucks having every ship at your disposal being a fleet ship and nothing else, no variety.


Yeah I get that they are suppose to be slow and tanky, but every other race has some other options when it comes to how to fit. With amarr it feels like the same ship over and over again with different models and a few changed bonuses.


Well you'd be surprised how many people fall to Maller Bait.

The Harbinger gets 700 dps for 70k EHP, works very well against most BC's, Myrms and Canes can cause some trouble.

With the Abso, it's more you bull through a fight and your DPS works its magic over time. Oh and you active tank an Abso cos it can get 1k dps tank cold with a relatively cheap fit. With exile and overheat, that climbs to 1.4k dps tank. What's not to like?

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I find a lot of Amarrian ships can do solo work.
Everything's Air Droppable at least once.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-21 03:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Liang Nuren wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Alright I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact the everything else is subpar.

And the funny thing is the Oracle is only good because it uses Battleship guns!


If you like the Oracle, there's no good reason you shouldn't like the Zealot and Legion. The Omen and Navy Omen are alright, as you agreed. The Coercer is arguably better now than it was before. The Executioner and Slicer are both ******* amazing and you're crazy to claim otherwise.

-Liang


No, you are crazy to suggest the Legion is fine, or even good.
And I never said anything about the zealot, so I don't know where you are getting that from.

But besides zealot and oracle everything else they have is just bad. Oracles only good because it uses the BS guns, and zealot is only good because its just a strong ship overall. Slicer and executioner are just alright. I wouldn't call them amazing. The rest blow.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#33 - 2012-12-21 03:23:50 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Alright I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact the everything else is subpar.

And the funny thing is the Oracle is only good because it uses Battleship guns!


If you like the Oracle, there's no good reason you shouldn't like the Zealot and Legion. The Omen and Navy Omen are alright, as you agreed. The Coercer is arguably better now than it was before. The Executioner and Slicer are both ******* amazing and you're crazy to claim otherwise.

-Liang


No, you are crazy to suggest the Legion is fine, or even good.
And I never said anything about the zealot, so I don't know where you are getting that from.

But besides zealot and oracle everything else they have is just bad. Oracles only good because it uses the BS guns, and zealot is only good because its just a strong ship overall. Slicer and executioner are just alright. I wouldn't call them amazing. The rest blow.


The Legion is a SuperZealot. If the Zealot is a "strong ship", then so is the Legion. The Slicer and Executioner are not merely "just alright" - they're ******* amazing. Your entire thread is turning into "Yeah well that one ship, BUT THE REST REALLY SUCK!" "And that one too, BUT THE REST REALLY SUCK, I PROMISE!!"

-_-

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Mother Ducks
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#34 - 2012-12-21 03:36:15 UTC
If I want to laugh at other frigates, the Navy Slicer will always be my preferred choice. With the rise of sensor dampeners, I realize it's power will likely be in decline, but then again "Oh, I can't target you unless I'm in scram range? See ya."

Being able to pick your targets at whim is a wonderful thing.
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#35 - 2012-12-21 04:28:25 UTC
There are about a million video's of people tanking 10 man gangs in a single rep HAM legion... that ship literally stretches people from behind...

The punisher will out-brawl ANY frigate (except maybe a TD hookbill).

The executioner can perma run a 10mn AB and 24km point... or it can just fit like an old fasioend rifter and be sick.

Tormentor is a slow dramiel that costs 500k.

Omen is just... well... it's sex

Zealot is the best fleet HAC in the game

Augoror Navy has more EHP than most battleships

The abaddon is the fleet ship of choice for POS warfare

Curse is so good that it's top of the "Must die" list for every fleet.

Pilgrim is the best Solo ganking force recon in the game.

trying putting some TRACKING DISRUPTORS on your arbitrator and watch those nano-ships that cost 500mil be entirely unable to deal damage.

Sacrilidge has possible the best active HAC tank in the game atm in a PVP situation.

Retribution is, hands down, the best AF in the game imo.

Vengeance is the best AF tackler in the game for tanking under sentry gun fire.

Harbinger does SICK damage and has amazing projection.

Granted the prophecy sucks, i hate the sentinel and all the interceptors are trash in the current frigate climate (but that;'s the same for most ceptors atm) plus the slicer could use some CPU.

Why ships have you been flying? Are you trying to pretend you are minmatar or something? Amarr are good. A slight re-shuffle is coming to reduce scorches range and increase MF's range which will make them amazing.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-12-21 04:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Since it was mentioned... There is no life in wormholes without Legion (not to discard other armor T3s ofc), unless all you do is running sites in C3-C4s in Tengus, or so killboards strongly suggest. And the backup for those? Guardians. So IMO it pretty much boils down to what was said in the beginning of the thread, you can find a place where your favorite ship will be needed.

I remember feeling exactly like OP some time ago though. Of course some people disagreed with me back then, and on top of that wise people told me that buffs and nerfs tend to turn tides significantly. I, for once, expect to laugh pretty hard at what Zealot and Sacrilege may become after rebalancing hit HACs, seeing how Maller can sport 94k EHP np and Omen becoming good nano ship (although I also suspect that Amarr BSs will take a hit since almost everything else CCP noted as "doing its job fine" in pre-rebalancing posts is a bit of a lackluster now, or so many people believe).

But after all said and done, things like this tend to happen nevertheless, so there's more to the topic than some objective merits of hardware.

Maeltstome wrote:
A slight re-shuffle is coming to reduce scorches range and increase MF's range which will make them amazing.

Hm? I believe I haven't heard anything about that. Where was it posted?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#37 - 2012-12-21 05:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Mother Ducks wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Mother Ducks wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Amarr ships are pretty good right now, good tech2 frigates and the slicer for tech1, good dessies, awesome cruiser lineup (the1/2/3, 100mn ham legion and even without that the lgion is pretty boss), good bcs, awesome battlehships!

Also the ham drake sucks in a pure stat battle, the harbi has more ehp/dps as does the armor cane/myrm!



I don't know how you are fitting your HAM Drake, but mine does more DPS than my armor cane, has more EHP, moves faster, and has better applied damage to BC up (only because I put two webs on my armor cane for cruiser down). HAM drake with scram web will eat any other BC that isn't dropping boosters like dey hot. God forbid I put missile implants in my head and just make it stupid.


Ham drake has aprox 108k ehp and deals 786dps, armor cane has 124k ehp and deals 864dps!



I want to live in the world where those two stats occur simultaneously for both ships. Maxing out the tanks, jotting those numbers down, then maxing out the gank, and combining the two, do not a ship make.



That are the stats of completly legit setup, all tech1/tech2 no faction or tech2 rigs (with a bit of pimp your looking at 150k ehp on the cane), both with hard tackle (i.e drake is web/scram + mwd, cane is dualweb/scram + mwd)

(granted thats force multiplied edit: semipimp fity 40o http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vwv3wz&s=6 with heat tho, cheap fit withmostly without heat http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vwv3wz&s=6 )


Also for solo stuff legion>loki/proteus, slicer/vengeance/retri are pretty awesome frigates, the coercer is pretty boss. Maller is the best tier1 cruiser hand down, omen is the best tier1 kiting cruiser, augorors are the best logistical ships tier1 has to offer, zealot is the best hac, guardians are very very good aswell, (curse/pilgrimm make awesome solo/small scale ships). Harbi is pretty good, oracle is very good. Damnation is pretty much the best fleet cs, the complete battleship line is op. Nightmare is awesome for pve, Bhaalghorn is the best pirate bs for fleets. Navy apocs are pretty boss aswell!

Racial ewar is pretty good aswell (especially if used on the ewar cruisers).


Seriously amarr is fine atm!

Edit: For some reason the links only work (at least for me), if you right click and select open in a new tab
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#38 - 2012-12-21 06:10:44 UTC
I am amarr specc'd and I got to say I respectfully disagree. Lasers could do with a bit more tracking but that's really all I can think of.

Oderint Dum Metuant

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#39 - 2012-12-21 06:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
The Punisher has only two mid-slots, is pretty darn slow for a Tech I frigate, and uses the turrets with the most cap use and worst tracking. It's utility high-slot ain't as useful as it once was and it's active tank is easily matched by the Incursus, Merlin or Breacher. The Punisher, like the Rifter, is past it's prime and in need of a reworking, cause it ain't working normally any more. So that's why I can't use the Punisher in my argument here.

But other than that, the Amarr still have some pretty dominant ships. Executioner, Coercer, Slicer, Retribution, Vengeance - these are just at the frigate / destroyer level and are all very scary ships in the hands of any Amarrian Warlord.

Diesel47 wrote:
So is it safe to say right now that Amarr ships are kinda suck?


Nah, definitely not.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-12-21 14:21:01 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:


The punisher will out-brawl ANY frigate (except maybe a TD hookbill).



Or an Incursus, or a TD slasher, or a sensor damp Condor, which is what people REALLY fly.