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Orca - Buy or Buy (SOLVED)
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Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#1 - 2012-12-19 20:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bakkhai
I know there's a patch that has caused some ships to require more minerals to make - therefore buying a cruiser is cheaper than building one right now, until the surplus of speculators sells off...

But. I can't see how an Orca can be built for cheaper than buy price- not in any scenerio.

They sell for 680 mil in every major market hub, but building is 30 mil more than that (even with maxed ME, good buy prices, etc). Can anyone explain this phenom?
Dave stark
#2 - 2012-12-19 21:56:12 UTC
Bakkhai wrote:
I know there's a patch that has caused some ships to require more minerals to make - therefore buying a cruiser is cheaper than building one right now, until the surplus of speculators sells off...

But. I can't see how an Orca can be built for cheaper than buy price- not in any scenerio.

They sell for 680 mil in every major market hub, but building is 30 mil more than that (even with maxed ME, good buy prices, etc). Can anyone explain this phenom?


are you using mineral prices from trade hubs for the build price? if so that's probably where you're going wrong.
people will buy cheap minerals from the back of beyond, and hence you get ships produced that will make a profit even if they appear to be sold below cost.
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#3 - 2012-12-19 22:10:33 UTC
Many corps have mineral buy back programs in null sec so that people don't have to freight their minerals to empire to sell them. This usually results in someone buying large quantities of product at a reduced rate than current market value. They then sell the ships for profit. Large alliances will use this manufacturing method to supply isk for their ship replacement program.
Midas Man
Dzark Asylum
#4 - 2012-12-19 22:11:59 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Bakkhai wrote:
I know there's a patch that has caused some ships to require more minerals to make - therefore buying a cruiser is cheaper than building one right now, until the surplus of speculators sells off...

But. I can't see how an Orca can be built for cheaper than buy price- not in any scenerio.

They sell for 680 mil in every major market hub, but building is 30 mil more than that (even with maxed ME, good buy prices, etc). Can anyone explain this phenom?


are you using mineral prices from trade hubs for the build price? if so that's probably where you're going wrong.
people will buy cheap minerals from the back of beyond, and hence you get ships produced that will make a profit even if they appear to be sold below cost.


minerals are worth what they sell for not what you bought them for Rule 101 for all investments
cluster 1
VooDoo Party
#5 - 2012-12-19 22:26:10 UTC
Could also be because of the Orca corp hanger nerf, a lot of ppl used them as haulers that couldnt be scanned. Which you can no longer do. I now have 2 gathering dust
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-12-19 23:02:49 UTC
cluster 1 wrote:
Could also be because of the Orca corp hanger nerf, a lot of ppl used them as haulers that couldnt be scanned. Which you can no longer do. I now have 2 gathering dust



And if you bought them before the drone alloy nerf, when they were around 500mil for the hull, you could firesale them for below current market value but still realize a capital gain.
Dave stark
#7 - 2012-12-19 23:08:11 UTC
Midas Man wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Bakkhai wrote:
I know there's a patch that has caused some ships to require more minerals to make - therefore buying a cruiser is cheaper than building one right now, until the surplus of speculators sells off...

But. I can't see how an Orca can be built for cheaper than buy price- not in any scenerio.

They sell for 680 mil in every major market hub, but building is 30 mil more than that (even with maxed ME, good buy prices, etc). Can anyone explain this phenom?


are you using mineral prices from trade hubs for the build price? if so that's probably where you're going wrong.
people will buy cheap minerals from the back of beyond, and hence you get ships produced that will make a profit even if they appear to be sold below cost.


minerals are worth what they sell for not what you bought them for Rule 101 for all investments


yes, however, if people are buying them for less than they're worth and producing ships with it then it's easy to see where these "below material cost" ships are coming from.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-20 00:17:15 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
however, if people are buying them for less than they're worth and producing ships with it then it's easy to see where these "below material cost" ships are coming from.



Hum, still those doing so are losing money so i don't find it a good explanation. Especially considering that other capital ships can be manufactured for a profit.

I think the nerf of the Orca is a reasonnable explanation. The fact that Orcas are also a typical high sec ship make them attractive for many high sec corporations, it's pretty commun to see small miners corp producing Orcas or Freighters for their own use, or to sell them. And miner corp aren't run by smart/experienced players anyway... they are mining right ? Lol
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries
Orion Consortium
#9 - 2012-12-20 00:27:05 UTC
Using current Jita sell prices for minerals, the build cost for an Orca is 660m which is still below the sell price for Orcas at 680m. To say Orcas are selling for 30m more then it costs to build the ship is wrong.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-20 01:26:05 UTC
Molic Blackbird wrote:
Using current Jita sell prices for minerals, the build cost for an Orca is 660m which is still below the sell price for Orcas at 680m. To say Orcas are selling for 30m more then it costs to build the ship is wrong.



Yes but it's more profitable selling parts individually than assembling them.
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries
Orion Consortium
#11 - 2012-12-20 01:38:39 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:

Yes but it's more profitable selling parts individually than assembling them.


Selling a built orca is easier and faster then selling the parts individually, thus you will turn your ISK over faster and make more in the long run.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#12 - 2012-12-20 05:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
One of the big problems with manufacturing is that people are willing to sell at a loss just for the fun of making something themselves.

I fleet up with a guy to mine some times and he regularly sells Drakes at or just below cost of the minerals he mines as i'm am sure a lot of people do.
Dave stark
#13 - 2012-12-20 05:57:53 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
however, if people are buying them for less than they're worth and producing ships with it then it's easy to see where these "below material cost" ships are coming from.



Hum, still those doing so are losing money so i don't find it a good explanation. Especially considering that other capital ships can be manufactured for a profit.

I think the nerf of the Orca is a reasonnable explanation. The fact that Orcas are also a typical high sec ship make them attractive for many high sec corporations, it's pretty commun to see small miners corp producing Orcas or Freighters for their own use, or to sell them. And miner corp aren't run by smart/experienced players anyway... they are mining right ? Lol


you're making the assumption people have perfect information about what is and isn't profitable, you also assume they have the relevant blueprints to produce these ships etc.

it might simply be quicker/easier for these people to create and sell orcas. sure a charon might make them more isk, however if they can't fly a charon from where they build it all the way to jita to sell it and then have to knock down the price so it will sell at whatever backwater system they produce their goods at...

it's not always as cut and dry as we'd like to think.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#14 - 2012-12-20 16:25:34 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
however, if people are buying them for less than they're worth and producing ships with it then it's easy to see where these "below material cost" ships are coming from.



Hum, still those doing so are losing money so i don't find it a good explanation. Especially considering that other capital ships can be manufactured for a profit.

I think the nerf of the Orca is a reasonable explanation. The fact that Orcas are also a typical high sec ship make them attractive for many high sec corporations, it's pretty common to see small miners corp producing Orcas or Freighters for their own use, or to sell them. And miner corp aren't run by smart/experienced players anyway... they are mining right ? Lol


Well they are not actually losing money. They are just not making as much as they could. Why sell at 10% profit when you can sell at 25% profit? Well that depends on the trader/manufacturer. The guy with the 10% markup is actually selling his stock while the guy with the 25% markup is sitting on it and not selling. Who is really making more isk? The guy actually selling his stick, or the guy not selling, waiting for more profit?

The reason the ORCA market is down is actually very simple. It has already been touched on in this thread. ORCA's do not get destroyed very often. At least not compared to many other ships in game. Some ORCA;s are very old. I have had mine for almost 3 years and only paid about 400,000isk for it.

Up until retribution ORCA's were used alot for hauling expensive items. They could be loaded in the corp hanger and not ascaned, and did not drop. you could have billions in modules in your corp hanger at near zero risk to gankers. But now that has changed. Not only have the corp hangers been changed to fleet hangers, but they can now be scanned and drop loot. So many of these industrial players that used their ORCA's as their primary hauler are now selling them. Many have had them for a very long time and paid far less for them than what they are currently selling them for, they did not build them, they are not losing money. Supply is up so prices are down. Besides, the current prices are not below mineral requirements. If they were someone would buy them all and reprocess them.

ORCA's are not built from raw minerals but from capital ship components built from minerals. thos components have BPO's that can be researched for better returns, plus the ORCA BPO can be researched to need a few less components. For example an ORCA BPO with zero research takes 37 capital cargo bay components. you can research the BPO and get that down easily to 34-35 You can then research the Capital Cargo Bay BPO to take less minerals per unit. they can be built for a profit at current prices, But right now is a good time to buy an ORCA if you need one. The price is down due to the high supply, it will not last.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#15 - 2012-12-20 16:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Dave stark wrote:
Debra Tao wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
however, if people are buying them for less than they're worth and producing ships with it then it's easy to see where these "below material cost" ships are coming from.



Hum, still those doing so are losing money so i don't find it a good explanation. Especially considering that other capital ships can be manufactured for a profit.

I think the nerf of the Orca is a reasonnable explanation. The fact that Orcas are also a typical high sec ship make them attractive for many high sec corporations, it's pretty commun to see small miners corp producing Orcas or Freighters for their own use, or to sell them. And miner corp aren't run by smart/experienced players anyway... they are mining right ? Lol


you're making the assumption people have perfect information about what is and isn't profitable, you also assume they have the relevant blueprints to produce these ships etc.

it might simply be quicker/easier for these people to create and sell orcas. sure a charon might make them more isk, however if they can't fly a charon from where they build it all the way to jita to sell it and then have to knock down the price so it will sell at whatever backwater system they produce their goods at...

it's not always as cut and dry as we'd like to think.

It is not manufacturers selling cheap that has driven the price down. It is the haulers selling of their useless ORCA's as they no longer have the unscanable 40,000m3 corp hanger that nothing dropped from. The supply is up from these being sold.

However if they were actually being sold at below mineral cost they would be sold very quickly. there are many players that know exactly what that number is. if they hit it they will all be gone very fast. Orca's take a lot of minerals, if reprocessing them gets profitable, they will get reprocessed.

Prices are down due to high supply, if you ever wanted to buy an ORCA, now is the time.
Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#16 - 2012-12-20 18:32:42 UTC
Molic Blackbird wrote:
Using current Jita sell prices for minerals, the build cost for an Orca is 660m which is still below the sell price for Orcas at 680m. To say Orcas are selling for 30m more then it costs to build the ship is wrong.


Can you put some numbers up - I can't get anywhere near this number 660. If that's the case then everything makes sense, but I've tried and I can't hardly get below 700m.
Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#17 - 2012-12-20 18:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bakkhai
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

The reason the ORCA market is down is actually very simple. It has already been touched on in this thread. ORCA's do not get destroyed very often. At least not compared to many other ships in game. Some ORCA;s are very old. I have had mine for almost 3 years and only paid about 400,000isk for it.

Up until retribution ORCA's were used alot for hauling expensive items. They could be loaded in the corp hanger and not ascaned, and did not drop. you could have billions in modules in your corp hanger at near zero risk to gankers. But now that has changed. Not only have the corp hangers been changed to fleet hangers, but they can now be scanned and drop loot. So many of these industrial players that used their ORCA's as their primary hauler are now selling them. Many have had them for a very long time and paid far less for them than what they are currently selling them for, they did not build them, they are not losing money. Supply is up so prices are down. Besides, the current prices are not below mineral requirements. If they were someone would buy them all and reprocess them.

This is about the best explanation I can gather. Especially that Orca's don't die often, poeple that need them can make a corp goal to build them.

Surprising that so many people used them (as intended I suppose - but never announced) to thwart pirates. If I were a pirate I'd be pissed. As a hardcore industrialist I welcome this change. Moving items should always be something of a risk so the AFK industrialists (usually null sec alts) think twice about shipping everything to Jita .

speaking of which - it is now profitable to gank frieghters at 500m or more. Fly safe.
Derek Wiildstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-12-20 20:41:01 UTC
Prices are low due to people selling their hauling orcas off. Once that supply dries up prices will stabilize. I'm still keeping mine for now as it's still a pretty tanky transport even if the hold is smallish.