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NPC AI Adjustment: Does it solve anything?

Author
Shik Koken
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-12-25 23:39:25 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
So grinding level 4s was your only source of good isk? No offense, but how is that even possible? It's insanely easy to make money in this game.


I only have 2 hours a day maximum to make some isk while I do some other work on the side. That makes me just about enough to buy a few ships to lose in the weekends when I can play a bit more.
I don't have time to run all over the galaxy running after incursions. Trade is work. Mining is too boring. So that leaves L4s.



This.

... is more common than the full-time power-gamers think. PvP is fun but as everyone is quick to point out - fight with ships you can afford to lose. If you can't replenish your ISK funding in the little RL time available, the quality of ships and size of ships have no direction to go other than down. As does the fun factor.

For all the pimply teenaged Eve players giving the above sarcastic comments, those in RL who work for a living, like to come home and enjoy Eve for BOTH PvE and PvP. Not go back to work for hours.

If CCP wants to turn Eve Online into a game exclusively for full-timer power gamers, they're on the right track. GL.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2012-12-25 23:42:16 UTC
This just in: fighting in battleships is more fun than frigates and cruisers.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#143 - 2012-12-26 00:28:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This just in: fighting in battleships is more fun than frigates and cruisers.

That's odd, I thought newbies had the most fun of us all, and they mostly use frigates or the evil blackbird...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

No More Heroes
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#144 - 2012-12-26 03:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: No More Heroes
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how these adjustments improve the Retirubtion situation at all?


Do you not feel sufficiently challenged by your PVE? I thought the drone changes were in response to the NPC AI in missions being laughable, farmable and bottable for many years..

.

Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-12-26 03:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Theron Urian
No More Heroes wrote:
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how these adjustments improve the Retirubtion situation at all?


Do you not feel sufficiently challenged by your PVE? I thought the drone changes were in response to the NPC AI in missions being laughable, farmable and bottable for many years..


They still are for the most part, all they did was basically put in a "drone replacement" tax. It is an annoying little way to bleed off ISK that affects some pilots more than others.

This AI change in no way made PvE game play, more exciting, fun, or difficult.

It was a half measure taken instead of doing the right thing and redoing the missions and anoms from the ground up.

Missions can still be ran mostly afk with a small change of fitting in one of multiple ways (Remote reps, E-war, MJD).

Any one that thinks this change was just to nerf afk missions is blind. To tell you the truth I have no idea what they wanted to accomplish by this AI change.
Luanda Heartbreaker
#146 - 2012-12-26 03:22:24 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how these adjustments improve the Retirubtion situation at all?


Do you not feel sufficiently challenged by your PVE? I thought the drone changes were in response to the NPC AI in missions being laughable, farmable and bottable for many years..



that means you dont really use drones or dont do pve. in a torpedo raven its easier to bot-rat years ago thanks to waves,
now drones havent just got nerfed but got rendered totally useless
No More Heroes
Sanctuary of Shadows
Dock Workers
#147 - 2012-12-26 04:11:48 UTC
Theron Urian wrote:
This AI change in no way made PvE game play, more exciting, fun, or difficult


I'm genuinely curious what exciting, fun and difficult PVE is like. The last game I really liked that wasnt a pvp game was FF7. Can someone name some examples of exciting, fun and difficult PVE? 100% real talk, no troll.

.

Theron Urian
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-12-26 04:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Theron Urian
No More Heroes wrote:
Theron Urian wrote:
This AI change in no way made PvE game play, more exciting, fun, or difficult


I'm genuinely curious what exciting, fun and difficult PVE is like. The last game I really liked that wasnt a pvp game was FF7. Can someone name some examples of exciting, fun and difficult PVE? 100% real talk, no troll.


Alas I am not a game dev, so I have no clue as to the true fix to the boring pve department.

But I would start with some things such as to make npc ships more closely resemble player ships, more hp , more damage, random fittings, ect, ect. The Feeling of wow I can alpha these battleships in one volley is nice and kind of a powerful feeling for the first half hour then it just seems like tediously swatting fly's in missions with 30+ npc. I would love to see a smaller but much more dangerous and competent amount of npc.

Random mission triggers would also help with the now currently robotic way we run missions.

Hell add in npc bounty hunting missions, the agent gives you a strong npc target, tells you a system and you route them out and kill them. Make the bounty do interesting stuff like randomly warping out to belts (hey loook a use for D-scan in high sec PvE) or calling in a friend for reinforcement, or even another npc bounty hunter warping to the target as you do and then give you a choice of helping them for a lower reward or blow them both the hell up for a full reward.


We need more dynamic and less static.

These are just a few thoughts and hell they still might end up just as boring. All I know is that some thing needs to change, and this little AI change was not really a step in the right direction.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#149 - 2012-12-26 06:23:50 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
Do you not feel sufficiently challenged by your PVE? I thought the drone changes were in response to the NPC AI in missions being laughable, farmable and bottable for many years..


Alright, that lie has gone on long enough. It's time to face the truth and 'fess up.

So which one of you guys blew up CCP FoxFour with a drone boat earlier this year?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#150 - 2012-12-26 06:49:18 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
No More Heroes wrote:
Do you not feel sufficiently challenged by your PVE? I thought the drone changes were in response to the NPC AI in missions being laughable, farmable and bottable for many years..

Alright, that lie has gone on long enough. It's time to face the truth and 'fess up.

So which one of you guys blew up CCP FoxFour with a drone boat earlier this year?

Maybe they wandered into a slowcat fleet and died.

I hear a big thing is going after ratting carriers, so...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kestrix
Federation of Independent Pilots
#151 - 2012-12-26 06:53:24 UTC
I've just recently bought and T2 fitted a Domi using sentry's and small drones as my primary DPS and I have yet to lose a drone to a level four mission. I have found that they get targeted more but that's not really a problem as the sentry's can be scooped up and re-deployed and I use large shield repper's which means I can turn off my own repper and let the drone keep the aggro.

Since the changes I've stopped using large drones. If you can't use sentry's then I would highly recommend getting/improving their skills.
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#152 - 2012-12-26 07:07:07 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
I've just recently bought and T2 fitted a Domi using sentry's and small drones as my primary DPS and I have yet to lose a drone to a level four mission. I have found that they get targeted more but that's not really a problem as the sentry's can be scooped up and re-deployed and I use large shield repper's which means I can turn off my own repper and let the drone keep the aggro.

Since the changes I've stopped using large drones. If you can't use sentry's then I would highly recommend getting/improving their skills.


Why on earth would you buy a Domi and kit it out for lvl 4 missions now? The obvious answer is you are attempting to promote the oft cited "ADAPT" philosophy and thats okay. Nobody is going to be using Domis for lvl 4s even though it can be done. It just happens to be the slowest way to do lvl 4s now and thats fine too. This change is not going to be rolled back. Its here to stay. If all you have are drone skills, do something else while training turrets or missiles. Nobody likes having the way they do something slapped around but it happens.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Kestrix
Federation of Independent Pilots
#153 - 2012-12-26 07:49:52 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Kestrix wrote:
I've just recently bought and T2 fitted a Domi using sentry's and small drones as my primary DPS and I have yet to lose a drone to a level four mission. I have found that they get targeted more but that's not really a problem as the sentry's can be scooped up and re-deployed and I use large shield repper's which means I can turn off my own repper and let the drone keep the aggro.

Since the changes I've stopped using large drones. If you can't use sentry's then I would highly recommend getting/improving their skills.


Why on earth would you buy a Domi and kit it out for lvl 4 missions now? The obvious answer is you are attempting to promote the oft cited "ADAPT" philosophy and thats okay. Nobody is going to be using Domis for lvl 4s even though it can be done. It just happens to be the slowest way to do lvl 4s now and thats fine too. This change is not going to be rolled back. Its here to stay. If all you have are drone skills, do something else while training turrets or missiles. Nobody likes having the way they do something slapped around but it happens.


I happen to be low on isk and I have 12 mill Sp in drones... I'm saving for a rattle snake if that makes you happier. Oh and if you want to make me happy go to Avair and buy my Chimera from the market and I'll stop using this domi :) straight away.
Complex Potential
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-12-26 10:27:10 UTC
As a drone boat pilot my method of "adapting" was to train Sentry Drone Interfacing 5 and look into tactics for using sentry drones, and it just finished Lol

Admittedly a 25 day training was quite annoying but now that it's done I can't believe how good they are.

I used to rat angels with Berserker IIs as they had far higher dps than tech 1 bouncers which always took ages to kill anything. But Tech 2 bouncers can do the same amount of dps as Berserker IIs from anything up to 100km and eliminates travel time.

What initially seemed like a nerf has actually forced me to look at something I'd never previously considered and I reckon I rat about 20-30% faster now.

The only problem is if the rats get too close but I changed my AB for a Micro Jump Drive and that has basically dealt with that issue. Personally I'm quite happy now.
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#155 - 2012-12-26 17:18:00 UTC
Complex Potential wrote:
As a drone boat pilot my method of "adapting" was to train Sentry Drone Interfacing 5 and look into tactics for using sentry drones, and it just finished Lol

Admittedly a 25 day training was quite annoying but now that it's done I can't believe how good they are.

I used to rat angels with Berserker IIs as they had far higher dps than tech 1 bouncers which always took ages to kill anything. But Tech 2 bouncers can do the same amount of dps as Berserker IIs from anything up to 100km and eliminates travel time.

What initially seemed like a nerf has actually forced me to look at something I'd never previously considered and I reckon I rat about 20-30% faster now.

The only problem is if the rats get too close but I changed my AB for a Micro Jump Drive and that has basically dealt with that issue. Personally I'm quite happy now.



Yes, I know that can be done, but its still the slow way. Perhaps thats okay with you and if it is youre golden. But for most people its about ISK per hour and there are many better ways to get it done than to jump drive around letting sentries plink away. My old Domi could tank anything and still pump out near 900dps with my skills. Now its like a brick with a BB gun that can be broken if you dont do everything just right. I now do them in gunships and missile boats and its MUCH faster. Guess the future new and improved AI will dismantle launchers and turrets lol.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#156 - 2012-12-26 18:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
I test domi navy and its looks good with sentry (nightmare for ogres and othey non staionary drones), anyway this new AI featrure push meny pilots to swich to instant damage form range missile or long range ships who focusing on pure guns damage with zero drones, using a drone boat these days suck a bit in general, and this in most cases affect only drones ships.

Not good for people for chose gallente and some ammar pilots in general.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#157 - 2012-12-27 13:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Maybe they wandered into a slowcat fleet and died.

I hear a big thing is going after ratting carriers, so...


Ok so which carrier pilot blew up CCP FoxFour?


Also, I find it telling that people have been saying "Ratting in Domi with sentry still works fine" when it CCP pretty much confessed that it was AFK ratting in Domis with sentries that they were trying to make come to an end. Every person who claimed to be able to AFK drone boats always gave the exact same answer: Domi with sentires = AFK boat.

But then I honestly don't believe that they ever intended to stop that particular type of botting. After all, why would a CSM staff filled entirely with nullbears want to wreck their own special nullsec ISK fountains? And since "Domi+Sentry=AFK Kosher" those particular items have been left untouched - what a coincidence!

Who was actually hurt the most? Hisec mission runners, of course. Golly, who would want to nerf hisec income I wonder?

So yeah, it's working as intended - we were just misled as to what that intention was.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#158 - 2012-12-27 14:30:14 UTC
To the "it's fine, just use sentries" people:

It is NOT fine, for a number of reasons.

1. Sentries only really become usable at elite cruiser level at the earliest. This is not fine for a new player who would be doing L1-L3 missions against many elite frigs and cruisers (who target drones of all sizes). Sentries are not an option for these players yet. As such, the situation is most certainly not fine.

The only reason we don't see a lot of complaints is because A) EVE doesn't really have (m)any new players coming in, most new characters are just alts of new players. And B) those new players that do run into this issue either train something else or quietly quit the game if they're unwilling to play in a way different from which they prefer.

Which brings up an interesting point. Drones are the "pet class" or "minion master" equivalent of EVE. If it is not fun or viable for new players, that turns them off from the game. Can they train something else? Sure. But why would they want to, if they want to play a minion master class, but end up at a huge disadvantage PLUS having to do tons of extra micromanagement with absolutely zero additional payoff for the hassle?

2. Sentries aren't really drones. They're stationary deployable, destructible space turrets. They function completely differently from all other entities in "Drones" window. They require drone skills, yes, and go into a drone bay, but for all intents and purposes they are extra turrets.

Don't get me wrong. As an old-ish player myself (had T2 sentries for a long time now), yes, the change is fine. But as a new player, I would absolutely loathe these changes.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#159 - 2012-12-27 16:07:49 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
To the "it's fine, just use sentries" people:

It is NOT fine, for a number of reasons.

1. Sentries only really become usable at elite cruiser level at the earliest. This is not fine for a new player who would be doing L1-L3 missions against many elite frigs and cruisers (who target drones of all sizes). Sentries are not an option for these players yet. As such, the situation is most certainly not fine.

The only reason we don't see a lot of complaints is because A) EVE doesn't really have (m)any new players coming in, most new characters are just alts of new players. And B) those new players that do run into this issue either train something else or quietly quit the game if they're unwilling to play in a way different from which they prefer.

Which brings up an interesting point. Drones are the "pet class" or "minion master" equivalent of EVE. If it is not fun or viable for new players, that turns them off from the game. Can they train something else? Sure. But why would they want to, if they want to play a minion master class, but end up at a huge disadvantage PLUS having to do tons of extra micromanagement with absolutely zero additional payoff for the hassle?

2. Sentries aren't really drones. They're stationary deployable, destructible space turrets. They function completely differently from all other entities in "Drones" window. They require drone skills, yes, and go into a drone bay, but for all intents and purposes they are extra turrets.

Don't get me wrong. As an old-ish player myself (had T2 sentries for a long time now), yes, the change is fine. But as a new player, I would absolutely loathe these changes.


The thing is, the people who cry fail and "i'll quit, hurffdruff" are those who can already do level 4's.
And the solution is, already mentioned. people just have to stop trying to make their mission boat cap stable. Cool
Mund Richard
#160 - 2012-12-27 16:13:38 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
The thing is, the people who cry fail and "i'll quit, hurffdruff" are those who can already do level 4's.
And the solution is, already mentioned. people just have to stop trying to make their mission boat cap stable. Cool
I'm usually not a big fan of cap stable fits but...

...Seeing your advice, I couldn't help but wonder how many people - who didn't read / plan ahead at the change - got caught unaware, with all drones dead in a pocket, tank stable, but no way out due to scramblers under the guns...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.