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High Sec / Low Sec / Null Sec Truth in Relation.

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Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#41 - 2012-12-17 17:19:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:
But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.
Just one problem: that is not a fact.

If it really were for rookies, the payout wouldn't be nearly as high since rookies have nothing to spend that kind of money on.


Exactly, it's a fallacy to believe that just because there's protection from pvp to some extent it's an area for rookies. That in itself would either:

- defeat the purpose of a sandbox

- turn any other mmo out there into a sandbox by defintion

In a sandbox endgame content should be found anywhere for everyone. It's not about what the specific content is, it's about the incentive to use that content.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-12-17 17:19:58 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:
Look I know there are great Corps / Alliances in Null Sec.
I know that there should be a better reward for the Risk taken in Null Sec.
I am in complete agreement with you on that.
I also know from having read that a System in Null Sec will not produce better yields of XYZ is mined and continually mined on a daily basis.
I know that not every territory in Null Sec is Pirate controlled.

But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.

If rookies could not make easy isk to afford skill books that cost 100's of millions of isk to billions of isk how would you propose they earn the isk to get them? Are you going to shell it out for them?

Null Sec is a whole new ball park of the entire mechanics of the game.

Players have to put the time in to make a system a level 5 industrial system. It's just not going to spawn the next day because you added a better ore yield Mod to your PoS / Stations.




I'm with you for the most part, but don't you find it coincidential that the ones making the isk in highsec are actually not the rookies but the organized isk-farming fleets run and played by people that have been in the game for years?



It's the whole mechanic that is inherently broken here.


Yes. But when you come to the point that you have grown tired of dealing with the headaches of not knowing whats going on while your offline, and you get tired of loosing to Billions of isk to those who you thought were on your team, had your back, etc. You start to realize that you can do it in a safer manner, with less stress. Some of us just don't farm ore for isk. We also build ships / ammunition / rigs etc with it. Some of us train new pilots and try to help them.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#43 - 2012-12-17 17:22:10 UTC
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended


A thousand times no and here's why: a lot of nullsec is empty and - to put it politely - worthless because there is nothing worth building there.

Holding Sov and actually doing something with it is actually worlds apart. There needs to be a lot more thant spawned and hence CCP created resources to fix the issues at hand.

Why not give players huge starbases anchorable as seperate celestials to be used to rival highsec industry? Keyword: rival as in competition

Why not give players the chance to fortify their systems properly instead of having x-alliance being able to destroy it all at the click of a button or jump from a titan because they are bored?

Why not give players the chance to build structres that spawn lvl 4 and 5 mission generating agents with null appropriate value? - Risk/Reward

Those are just examples and there's so much more that would make nullsec a thriving place worth living in and fighting over other than Tech or boredom.

Just give people a reason to defend what they have once again and give people the tools to build said empire themselves. Isn't that the ultimate defintion of a sandbox?

It's not about taking stuff away from one party and shipping it over to the other, it's about putting the two on equally appealing ground with pros and cons.


hi sec should be fixed because it is just a distraction from the real issue

null empires are unbalanced with each other
buffing industry over all null does nothing to change relations between null empires, relative to each other
they still only have tech to fight over, and boredom, and against "bad guys" nationalism/patriotism roleplay stuff
unless industrial capacity is concentrated in certain areas
and now industry has become the new tech
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#44 - 2012-12-17 17:22:34 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:

Yes. But when you come to the point that you have grown tired of dealing with the headaches of not knowing whats going on while your offline, and you get tired of loosing to Billions of isk to those who you thought were on your team, had your back, etc. You start to realize that you can do it in a safer manner, with less stress. Some of us just don't farm ore for isk. We also build ships / ammunition / rigs etc with it. Some of us train new pilots and try to help them.


Good, we're on the same page then. Please refer to my post above for the response.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#45 - 2012-12-17 17:24:01 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
Lets not Burn the guy who is retired and now enjoys his time in EVE mining. I put in my days / months / years punching some ass clowns clock.

Now I punch my own Clock in EVE.

If I want to move to Null Sec and deal with Null Sec operations I will.

But I do not. Nor is it written anywhere in the EULA that I have to move to Null Sec.

If your not making ISK in Null Sec, it has 0 to do with the players in High Sec.

**** Poor management is your own downfall.

Everyone wants what someone else has. If your not making isk then go to where you can. High Sec is the training grounds for rookies. Unless you want 10 mil can I have some isk requests on an hourly basis stop crying about what you cant make in Null Sec. You have 3 slots per account for toons. Not like you can not have a fleet in Null and a Fleet in High and send isk between them.

Firstly, who is telling you to move to null sec? This is the same idiocy that pops up in EVERY SINGLE discussion of the game's balance (note, i am not calling you an idiot, just pointing out the dumb things high sec people say). no one gives a damn about where you play, some of us DO give a damn about what EVE is and is supposed to be like, and a game about cold harsh dark realities should not MAKE me keep characters in protected high sec just to be able to play.

Second, you hit another major fallacy, i call it the adaptation mistake.

Just because you can adapt to the situation doesn't make the underlying situation good at all. I HAVE high sec isk making alts because i pretty much have to, yet if I had my way I''d never ever set foot in wonderland...I mean high sec.... again.

it's like living in the country but having to diver hundreds of miles to a city to do any shopping because no-one thought to put a single walmart in you town ( a situation that does not exist in my part of the country, walmart is everywhere lol)
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#46 - 2012-12-17 17:24:43 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended


A thousand times no and here's why: a lot of nullsec is empty and - to put it politely - worthless because there is nothing worth building there.

Holding Sov and actually doing something with it is actually worlds apart. There needs to be a lot more thant spawned and hence CCP created resources to fix the issues at hand.

Why not give players huge starbases anchorable as seperate celestials to be used to rival highsec industry? Keyword: rival as in competition

Why not give players the chance to fortify their systems properly instead of having x-alliance being able to destroy it all at the click of a button or jump from a titan because they are bored?

Why not give players the chance to build structres that spawn lvl 4 and 5 mission generating agents with null appropriate value? - Risk/Reward

Those are just examples and there's so much more that would make nullsec a thriving place worth living in and fighting over other than Tech or boredom.

Just give people a reason to defend what they have once again and give people the tools to build said empire themselves. Isn't that the ultimate defintion of a sandbox?

It's not about taking stuff away from one party and shipping it over to the other, it's about putting the two on equally appealing ground with pros and cons.


hi sec should be fixed because it is just a distraction from the real issue

null empires are unbalanced with each other
buffing industry over all null does nothing to change relations between null empires, relative to each other
they still only have tech to fight over, and boredom, and against "bad guys" nationalism/patriotism roleplay stuff
unless industrial capacity is concentrated in certain areas
and now industry has become the new tech


Hence the buff to players being able to create and defend that everywhere and not by (rather poor if I may add) gamedesign.
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-12-17 17:25:43 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:

But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.

If rookies could not make easy isk to afford skill books that cost 100's of millions of isk to billions of isk how would you propose they earn the isk to get them?

What do rookies need billions for?

What should be done to those people who refuse to move on and learn new things? The ones living in their mothers basement still in their 50's, stuffing their gaping afk t2 maws with cheetos ruining the profits for all the real rookies? If you would be seriously concerned about newbies, you'd want to do something about them. It simply is not reasonable to force the civilian mining laser frigates to compete against t2 afk miners.

Alas, you are probably one of them.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#48 - 2012-12-17 17:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended


A thousand times no and here's why: a lot of nullsec is empty and - to put it politely - worthless because there is nothing worth building there.

Holding Sov and actually doing something with it is actually worlds apart. There needs to be a lot more thant spawned and hence CCP created resources to fix the issues at hand.

Why not give players huge starbases anchorable as seperate celestials to be used to rival highsec industry? Keyword: rival as in competition

Why not give players the chance to fortify their systems properly instead of having x-alliance being able to destroy it all at the click of a button or jump from a titan because they are bored?

Why not give players the chance to build structres that spawn lvl 4 and 5 mission generating agents with null appropriate value? - Risk/Reward

Those are just examples and there's so much more that would make nullsec a thriving place worth living in and fighting over other than Tech or boredom.

Just give people a reason to defend what they have once again and give people the tools to build said empire themselves. Isn't that the ultimate defintion of a sandbox?

It's not about taking stuff away from one party and shipping it over to the other, it's about putting the two on equally appealing ground with pros and cons.


hi sec should be fixed because it is just a distraction from the real issue

null empires are unbalanced with each other
buffing industry over all null does nothing to change relations between null empires, relative to each other
they still only have tech to fight over, and boredom, and against "bad guys" nationalism/patriotism roleplay stuff
unless industrial capacity is concentrated in certain areas
and now industry has become the new tech


Hence the buff to players being able to create and defend that everywhere and not by (rather poor if I may add) gamedesign.


you mean that after hi sec is fixed we won't hear
"ccp should deplete the moons"
"ccp should rotate the moons around the map"
"ccp should reduce factory output over time boz of wear and tear" etc (if industry is made a resource to fight over)
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-12-17 17:30:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:
Lets not Burn the guy who is retired and now enjoys his time in EVE mining. I put in my days / months / years punching some ass clowns clock.

Now I punch my own Clock in EVE.

If I want to move to Null Sec and deal with Null Sec operations I will.

But I do not. Nor is it written anywhere in the EULA that I have to move to Null Sec.

If your not making ISK in Null Sec, it has 0 to do with the players in High Sec.

**** Poor management is your own downfall.

Everyone wants what someone else has. If your not making isk then go to where you can. High Sec is the training grounds for rookies. Unless you want 10 mil can I have some isk requests on an hourly basis stop crying about what you cant make in Null Sec. You have 3 slots per account for toons. Not like you can not have a fleet in Null and a Fleet in High and send isk between them.

Firstly, who is telling you to move to null sec? This is the same idiocy that pops up in EVERY SINGLE discussion of the game's balance (note, i am not calling you an idiot, just pointing out the dumb things high sec people say). no one gives a damn about where you play, some of us DO give a damn about what EVE is and is supposed to be like, and a game about cold harsh dark realities should not MAKE me keep characters in protected high sec just to be able to play.

Second, you hit another major fallacy, i call it the adaptation mistake.

Just because you can adapt to the situation doesn't make the underlying situation good at all. I HAVE high sec isk making alts because i pretty much have to, yet if I had my way I''d never ever set foot in wonderland...I mean high sec.... again.

it's like living in the country but having to diver hundreds of miles to a city to do any shopping because no-one thought to put a single walmart in you town ( a situation that does not exist in my part of the country, walmart is everywhere lol)


Same here I live in Missouri.

My point was people like to Trash those of us who remain in High Sec.
If high sec was so glamorous, I would not need an alt fleet of NPC corped Miners to deal with High Sec Politics.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-12-17 17:32:56 UTC
At the end of the day.

EVE is a bunch of One's and Zero's in a line of complex programming, with pretty flashing lights.

It's a game. It's fun. It helps pass my time away.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#51 - 2012-12-17 17:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Eight Two
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:

you mean that after hi sec is fixed we won't hear
"ccp should deplete the moons"
"ccp should rotate the moons around the map"
"ccp should wear out factory output over time" etc (if industry is made a resource to fight over)


First, it's not about fixing highsec per se, it's about getting null and highsec in order but that's spinning terms and unneccesary at this point.

Second, there's always going to be people that are going to want to have it their way because they are either too lazy to come up with something new or simply too dumb to prevail in a sandbox that throws everyone against each other from the start.

The second one should never become an issue but it's what we're seeing now.

The avid nerf-high-buff-null circlejerk is a stalemate without escape because neither of the involved parties is willing to learn and do something new and they're doing their best to put the blame on the other while (pick one of the following for your chosen party)

devswarm/CCFail/those drunk guys in iceland

are either too slow or have to little resources to tackle the task at hand in any reasonable amount of time and have to focus on throwing out patch after patch with more half-assed content to keep the masses in check. It's crowd control after all.

Don't forget, the current situation is very much player/CSM made. It's the blind feeding the blind.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#52 - 2012-12-17 17:50:27 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
O'k yes High Sec Industry is 10 x easier then Low or Null Industry operations.

Fact you can't just warp into a high sec systems and start blowing up another Corp's / Alliance's PoS with a fleet of Dreads, Carriers, and Super Carriers with out a Active War Dec, and well you can not fly the instant popping Birds of Prey either in High Sec.

...

The reason why so many Industry folks remain in High Sec is it does not take a Massive group to Protect its daily activities.

...

But having to PoS up and hault operations at any given time Sucks. So why deal with it, when you do not have to?



Nah you can't use capitals in high sec. But the only thing stopping you from steamrolling someone is a 24 hour waiting perdiod for a wardec. I guarantee you the minute you kill a few of them, they will POS up or hide in station for the rest of the war. So what's the difference - you have effectively removed them from the game and denied them the ability to play, which is pretty much what you do when you kick someone out of a nullsec region anyway.

If you need to work so hard at protection your industry in nullsec, you have either a diplomatic problem or a perception problem. If you are on the front lines and trying to run an industry alliance you are doing it wrong. Likewise if you're looking for PvP way out in Omist or Cobalt Edge or something, you are going to be disappointed.

Work on your diplo skills and be blue with more people, or kill enough of the roamers to make them respect you and stop roaming you as often. Or if worst comes to worst and you are next to an enemy that vastly outnumbers you and refuses to blue you - move. The problem you describe is not a "nullsec" problem, its a problem with the competence of your alliance leadership.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-12-17 17:57:58 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:
O'k yes High Sec Industry is 10 x easier then Low or Null Industry operations.

Fact you can't just warp into a high sec systems and start blowing up another Corp's / Alliance's PoS with a fleet of Dreads, Carriers, and Super Carriers with out a Active War Dec, and well you can not fly the instant popping Birds of Prey either in High Sec.

...

The reason why so many Industry folks remain in High Sec is it does not take a Massive group to Protect its daily activities.

...

But having to PoS up and hault operations at any given time Sucks. So why deal with it, when you do not have to?



Nah you can't use capitals in high sec. But the only thing stopping you from steamrolling someone is a 24 hour waiting perdiod for a wardec. I guarantee you the minute you kill a few of them, they will POS up or hide in station for the rest of the war. So what's the difference - you have effectively removed them from the game and denied them the ability to play, which is pretty much what you do when you kick someone out of a nullsec region anyway.

If you need to work so hard at protection your industry in nullsec, you have either a diplomatic problem or a perception problem. If you are on the front lines and trying to run an industry alliance you are doing it wrong. Likewise if you're looking for PvP way out in Omist or Cobalt Edge or something, you are going to be disappointed.

Work on your diplo skills and be blue with more people, or kill enough of the roamers to make them respect you and stop roaming you as often. Or if worst comes to worst and you are next to an enemy that vastly outnumbers you and refuses to blue you - move. The problem you describe is not a "nullsec" problem, its a problem with the competence of your alliance leadership.


Which is why I will not be moving my operations to Null Sec.
I do not want to have to deal with the headaches of any of it.
War Dec's don't stop anything for my operations. Again Multiple Accounts / Multiple Fleets. Player owned / Npc Owned. One gets hemmed I pause mains continue training alts mine mine mine mine dec ends Contracts for ships / Ore gets made out, Player owned corp picks it all up life goes on.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-12-17 18:00:56 UTC
i lived in null some time in the past, couldnt believe how boring it was. now people talks about the failure of it because of sov mechanics, well i think its more deep than that.

1. lack of resource management: what's the point of having a territory which spans for several systems when you only live in one?, all those belts, moons and planets practically untouched, waiting to be exploited until the last drop in order to maintain the resource influx inside the corp/alliance?, why should i as a CEO ask to get the minerals and other commodities from high sec, when i have all the resources to manufacture the things here?.

2. lack of vision: okai, the main trade hubs are at several systems far from out HQ, but we have another station wich connects to several regions with other corps in our alliance, why not making it a trading hub?, buying and selling all the things we need there?, a problem es ISK? i dont think so, most part of the time people kills rats do anoms and run complex there, so the bounties are enough payment.

3. lack of interest: miners dont want to think they're giving their minerals for cero profit, industrialist are ******* beancounters so they dont want to give at least a 10% of their work for the organization. that's another pain in the ass. that solo mentality keeps away the idea of forming an empire.

conclusion: the reason are the players, not the mechanics, a corporation wasnt planned to be a "solo guild" it was planned as a real community, build community then you can start to build a f*cking empire.

null sec has more things to do than PvP, solo belt ratting/anoms or complexes.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#55 - 2012-12-17 18:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Eight Two wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended


A thousand times no and here's why: a lot of nullsec is empty and - to put it politely - worthless because there is nothing worth building there.

Holding Sov and actually doing something with it is actually worlds apart. There needs to be a lot more thant spawned and hence CCP created resources to fix the issues at hand.

Why not give players huge starbases anchorable as seperate celestials to be used to rival highsec industry? Keyword: rival as in competition

Why not give players the chance to fortify their systems properly instead of having x-alliance being able to destroy it all at the click of a button or jump from a titan because they are bored?

Why not give players the chance to build structres that spawn lvl 4 and 5 mission generating agents with null appropriate value? - Risk/Reward

Those are just examples and there's so much more that would make nullsec a thriving place worth living in and fighting over other than Tech or boredom.

Just give people a reason to defend what they have once again and give people the tools to build said empire themselves. Isn't that the ultimate defintion of a sandbox?

It's not about taking stuff away from one party and shipping it over to the other, it's about putting the two on equally appealing ground with pros and cons.


hi sec should be fixed because it is just a distraction from the real issue

null empires are unbalanced with each other
buffing industry over all null does nothing to change relations between null empires, relative to each other
they still only have tech to fight over, and boredom, and against "bad guys" nationalism/patriotism roleplay stuff
unless industrial capacity is concentrated in certain areas
and now industry has become the new tech


Hence the buff to players being able to create and defend that everywhere and not by (rather poor if I may add) gamedesign.


why should everywhere be a special nice place
some people have to live in the deserts and tundra
although in real life, the worse and crapper the land is the harder and fiercer the people fight over but that's by the by

i have an idea, instead of buffing this and that place and nerfing this and that place
why not just copy and paste the sec status from the empire area of the map and give it to a random crappy null area
after all the issue is about the sec status ins't it??? hmm

so now that one hi sec system with 10000 slots is now one null system with 10000 slots controlled by a player empire

that is the only scientific way to do this
if there are still whines after this happens well, then the problem wasn't really with hi at all hmmmm
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#56 - 2012-12-17 18:16:24 UTC
Ptraci wrote:

Snip for saving space


Interesting, still:

No offense intended, but are you really naive enough to think that you are shutting a group of people down that way? Every single half-competent person in this game has an alt and will just not log until the situation is over and done with.

That is just another one of the things leading into this giant sh*thole we're in right now, each and every game mechanic can be bypassed by an alt. Effectively, it's Alts Online.

There's alts for dualboxing missions, increasing plex farming output in FW and exploration, alts to avoid standing hits, mining alts, etc. The list is almost endless.

By coincidence, most of these alts can be conveniently placed in the safe haven that highsec is by nature to generate more and more imbalance.

It's not only the highsec guys ruining the party for null, the unpleasant truth is it's the highsec alts as well and the more people realize that they need an alt to be able to compete the worse it will get.

It's funny if you look at the bigger picture really. CCP Soundwave can talk about maximizing human interaction all day if you ask me, unless there's actually a single human for every character nothing will change. In the end it will be just that: talk.


"Seven Kiskanaiken wrote:
Snip for saving space



The whole point is, everywhere should be a place that could become special and nice given there's the right number of players interested in making that. There's a reason why places like you describe are so fiercly fought over.

Give people a reason and the simple prospect of wealth and they will have a go at it.

That is in my opinion the only way to do it. Then again, look above. If it's completely safe for one person to do it, what's the point in even trying.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#57 - 2012-12-17 18:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Tippia wrote:


They are empires. Empire builders, ever heard of it? No, the problem is that the game mechanics don't allow for empire building on a scale that even remotely comes close to providing the facilities and expedience offered by highsec. Until they allow for that, the alliances should remember that they are not — and never can be — empires.



The vast, vast, vast majority of manufacturing in high sec is not done in stations, but at POS's.
No manufacturer with any ability or brains manufactures out of a station, where he has to contend with uncontrollable wait times or even manufacturing slot availability at all.

And guess what, the game mechanics DO allow POS's to work precisely the same way in null as they do in high sec.
So the fact that null sec in general has decided to focus all their manufacturing into supercaps, is just that, a decision.
Null sec could with a snap of their fingers could manufacture all they need right there.

Seems to me, that any T2 module needs moon goo only found in deep low or null sec.
So how about this?

Instead of exporting the raw materials to high sec, then importing a finished good, how about just avoid all the hassle and make the T2 goods right there in null, at a POS, just like high sec does.

*snipped rumor mongering, left actual content* - CCP Eterne
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#58 - 2012-12-17 18:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Tippia wrote:


They are empires. Empire builders, ever heard of it? No, the problem is that the game mechanics don't allow for empire building on a scale that even remotely comes close to providing the facilities and expedience offered by highsec. Until they allow for that, the alliances should remember that they are not — and never can be — empires.



The vast, vast, vast majority of manufacturing in high sec is not done in stations, but at POS's.
No manufacturer with any ability or brains manufactures out of a station, where he has to contend with uncontrollable wait times or even manufacturing slot availability at all.

And guess what, the game mechanics DO allow POS's to work precisely the same way in null as they do in high sec.
So the fact that null sec in general has decided to focus all their manufacturing into supercaps, is just that, a decision.
Null sec could with a snap of their fingers could manufacture all they need right there.

Seems to me, that any T2 module needs moon goo only found in deep low or null sec.
So how about this?

Instead of exporting the raw materials to high sec, then importing a finished good, how about just avoid all the hassle and make the T2 goods right there in null, at a POS, just like high sec does.



However, the large part of 00 that doesn't have Tech will still remain just as worthless and that is a problem that needs to be adressed.

Also, on a more personal note you will have to understand that this nullsec propagande is fueled with reactions like yours. You are giving the Tippia, and you've summed up her "traits" pretty well, a perfect reason to flag your post for calling her a liar.

Lobbying for something can only be done if you make sure your voice is heard.

So far the nullsec propaganda has won that battle but it's up to the few that actually don't give a damn about where you live but do care for something interesting coming into Eve again.

By that I mean not licking some alliance leaders tongue by crawling deep enough up his a*s to spread the word of the hive nor do I mean farming driven carebear stampedes. Until then, the joke that progression in this game is will continue.

*Snipped removed quote and discussion over it* - CCP Eterne
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#59 - 2012-12-17 19:02:47 UTC
Eight Two wrote:


Well it's lasted more than 10 minutes and you are obviosuly right about that. However, the large part of 00 that doesn't have Tech will still remain just as worthless and that is a problem that needs to be adressed.

Also, on a more personal note you will have to understand that this nullsec propagande is fueled with reactions like yours. You are giving the Tippia, and you've summed up her "traits" pretty well, a perfect reason to flag your post for calling her a liar.

Lobbying for something can only be done if you make sure your voice is heard.

So far the nullsec propaganda has won that battle but it's up to the few that actually don't give a damn about where you live but do care for something interesting coming into Eve again.

By that I mean not licking some alliance leaders tongue by crawling deep enough up his a*s to spread the word of the hive nor do I mean farming driven carebear stampedes. Until then, the joke that progression in this game is will continue.



Yeah, the null sec propagandists do walk that fine line and know their way around the forum lawyering.
I simply do not understand how when someone posts something as "fact" when it is patently untrue, how we are not allowed to call them liars.

Some guy in here just called me stupid, but that seems to be OK.

As for getting our voices heard, CCP is not listening.
Every day I get onto the forums, and say "today I will ignore the lies", and every day I get enraged by yet another even more outrageous one, and find myself posting.

It is over, null sec has won, high sec will be a shell of what it is today by the next winter release.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#60 - 2012-12-17 19:16:06 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Eight Two wrote:


Well it's lasted more than 10 minutes and you are obviosuly right about that. However, the large part of 00 that doesn't have Tech will still remain just as worthless and that is a problem that needs to be adressed.

Also, on a more personal note you will have to understand that this nullsec propagande is fueled with reactions like yours. You are giving the Tippia, and you've summed up her "traits" pretty well, a perfect reason to flag your post for calling her a liar.

Lobbying for something can only be done if you make sure your voice is heard.

So far the nullsec propaganda has won that battle but it's up to the few that actually don't give a damn about where you live but do care for something interesting coming into Eve again.

By that I mean not licking some alliance leaders tongue by crawling deep enough up his a*s to spread the word of the hive nor do I mean farming driven carebear stampedes. Until then, the joke that progression in this game is will continue.



Yeah, the null sec propagandists do walk that fine line and know their way around the forum lawyering.
I simply do not understand how when someone posts something as "fact" when it is patently untrue, how we are not allowed to call them liars.

Some guy in here just called me stupid, but that seems to be OK.

As for getting our voices heard, CCP is not listening.
Every day I get onto the forums, and say "today I will ignore the lies", and every day I get enraged by yet another even more outrageous one, and find myself posting.

It is over, null sec has won, high sec will be a shell of what it is today by the next winter release.


Honestly, so what? One day CCP will have to listen because 4000 subscriptions and 20000 plexed alts will not be enough to keep the servers going.

At least one person in that company has to be smart enough to actually go and investigate why people are calling up a sh*tstorm every time after a patch and why there is so many threads covering the same topics over and over again. If that doesn't happen and they have to close they deserve failure with every last bit of consequence.

As enraging as some of this stuff may be, you will have to accept the fact that no matter how many lies are spread, how many threads trolled with hunrdes of alts, there is no way that they will ever succeed in shutting the legit players up.

It has happened in the past and in the end they all just turned on each other, it will just happen again. It's a question of when, not if.