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High Sec / Low Sec / Null Sec Truth in Relation.

First post
Author
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-12-17 14:49:26 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The problem is that the nullsec alliances ingore what they actually are.

They are empires. Empire builders, ever heard of it?
No, the problem is that the game mechanics don't allow for empire building on a scale that even remotely comes close to providing the facilities and expedience offered by highsec. Until they allow for that, the alliances should remember that they are not — and never can be — empires.

Father Amarria wrote:
You Choose to move to Null Sec knowing the limitations of what you are getting yourself into.
…and they also chose highsec because the lack of limitations, and that's where the entire problem lies: the supposedly player-run areas are more limited in what players can do than the NPC-run ones. It really should be the other way around so that they can choose to actually, fully move to null sec.


Just wanted to highlight that part, THAT is the core problem.

Funny part is high sec people are constantly asking to be left alone, but when anyone proposes changes that would amount to people leaving them alone because things can now be done in null sec, they pitch a fit lol.


And what is it you can't do in null?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.

Pretty GuyYeah
#22 - 2012-12-17 14:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pretty GuyYeah
The issue it extremely simple.

Huge alliances of pirates conquer huge areas of nullsec space. Instead of building an empire in which people can actually live, they choose to kill everyone who enter their space.

They then get bored and proceed to the forums where they cry to CCP in hope they will nerf high sec. Why? So more people enter their gate camps to get instantly killed.

There is no denying this.



Now, what they could actually do;

Build an empire (Look up Empire Builder, it's actually a role CCP wants you to take), create a place where citizenship is possible. INVITE people to live in your empire instead of killing everyone who enters.



Nullsec alliances: NEWSFLASH
You're not an empire. You're a clutch of pirates who kill everyone in sight. No wonder you can't compete with the four NPC empires (hisec) when you're not even trying to be an empire.


If you actually want to build an empire, then ask CCP for the tools you so desperately need to build one. Nerfing hisec will make your 'empire' any better.

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-12-17 14:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
dexington wrote:
And what is it you can't do in null?
Create an industrial and individual money-making base that rivals even a single highsec system.

Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The issue it extremely simple.
Indeed it is. Highsec provides too good a benchmark to allow other parts of space to compete with it, and the tools to build any such empires aren't in the game to begin with.

Quote:
There is no denying this.
It's actually very easy to deny since it's all made-up hyperbolic paranoid nonsense based on assumptions that simply (and very obviously) aren't true.
Pretty GuyYeah
#24 - 2012-12-17 14:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Pretty GuyYeah
Tippia wrote:
dexington wrote:
And what is it you can't do in null?
Create an industrial and individual money-making base that rivals even a single highsec system.

Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The issue it extremely simple.
Indeed it is. Highsec provides too good a benchmark to allow other parts of space to compete with it, and the tools to build any such empires aren't in the game to begin with.

Quote:
There is no denying this.
It's actually very easy to deny since it's all made-up hyperbolic paranoid nonsense based on assumptions that simply (and very obviously) aren't true.



Thank you for demonstrating the flawed logic I analysed. Prime example indeed.

Unintelligent people come in handy Pirate +1

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2012-12-17 14:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
Thank you for demonstrating the flawed logic I analysed. Prime example indeed.
…except of course, that it doesn't contain any part of what you wrote. In fact, it only contains the exact opposite (i.e. true statements), as further demonstrated by your inability to provide anything resembling a counter-argument or facts or anything other than a repetitive “nu-uh!”

They are already doing what you say they should be doing, apart from those parts where the game simply doesn't allow them to due to the built-in constraints.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-12-17 15:08:37 UTC
O'k to say that Gate Camping is a Myth is not in truth.

Ever take a Stealth Bomber to ORE from High Sec to get their BPO's????

Let me count the # of Bubbles you will poke through while you make ump-teen jumps gate to gate.

Because going to Null Sec Gate to Gate in a shuttle to pick up the BPO's will totally get you past all of that.

You will find yourself in your PoD back in high sec needing a new SP clone again if you do.


Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2012-12-17 15:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Father Amarria wrote:
O'k to say that Gate Camping is a Myth is not in truth.

Ever take a Stealth Bomber to ORE from High Sec to get their BPO's????

Let me count the # of Bubbles you will poke through while you make ump-teen jumps gate to gate.
No, but the notion that everywhere you go, you'll be camped is a myth. A bubble is not a camp — a bubble is just left-over litter. If you count more than one bubble that you “poke through”, then guess what? You've proven the omni-camp myth to be untrue. You've shown that it is indeed entirely possible to travel through null.

Quote:
Because going to Null Sec Gate to Gate in a shuttle to pick up the BPO's will totally get you past all of that.
No, it won't. That's why you use the proper tools for the job instead, just like you would in highsec.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-12-17 15:24:00 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:


No one likes loosing ships No matter where you play EVE a loss of a ship is like loosing your best friend. Yeah its replaceable, but ya hate it.


I had to stop here.

You know, aside from the fact that pretty much everything else you wrote came across like you don't really understand how many mechanics in the game actually work.

Exactly how much null sec industry have you done?
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-12-17 16:26:59 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:


No one likes loosing ships No matter where you play EVE a loss of a ship is like loosing your best friend. Yeah its replaceable, but ya hate it.


I had to stop here.

You know, aside from the fact that pretty much everything else you wrote came across like you don't really understand how many mechanics in the game actually work.

Exactly how much null sec industry have you done?


None.

There is not much to understand out side of Ore Yields = ISK per hour Ratio. When Nerfing % away just add more Hulks to Compensate

Its simple math. if 2 hulks can clear a whole belt in 2.5 hours 4 hulks can do it in an hour if the AVG Asteroid Belt is 150 mil isk in unrefined ore. The faster you clear a belt the more ISK you make. Unlike some who are part time players some of us are fulltime players with 8+ hours a day to just have fun.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#30 - 2012-12-17 16:31:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:

No, it won't. That's why you use the proper tools for the job instead, just like you would in highsec.


Yes and here's the problem for you in a nutshell:

You're excpecting too much of the average player. The guy who has played a couple of years, been in an alliance and found out that living in null was pretty much a crappy and time consuming thing to do will not move from his little island not matter what.

The new guy who is all excited about Eve and curious to discover new things goes out there a couple of times with no knowledge of how to survive. what to do and gets blopped at the 3rd gate he comes through tops.

He's lost a ship, has no income to speak of and gets mouthed off in local by a bunch of kids or adults with post-puberty personaltiy disorders before they pod him. Do you really think he's gonna go back?

Of course not, he turns to the "vet" throwing around his stories about how bad the place really is and starts blending in. Before you know it, you have just created another mission/mining zombie that will venture into lowsec after some time for some PvP maybebut that's about it. The bad experience sticks.

Worst case he comes to the forums trying to find some help and gets trolled to bits in the very first thread by the people that killed him. Or has each and every thread derailed by x-alt of x-alliance because of "lulz", "dem tears" or "propagandaz".

Again, do you think he's gonna go back?

Take the next dude who, by chance goes and ventures into renting a small piece of nullspace for him and his friends, then gets reset by his alliance for "omgwtfyounubssuckatpvpandlifefornotloggingonat3inthemorning" and shot in the back.

Do you think these guys will go back?

The OP is right in that one aspect here, it's not only a question of asking CCP to fix nullsec (and there is no doubt there's a lot that needs to be looked into, don't get me wrong) but it's also a matter of attitude.

If there's not more money to be made in nullsec, there's more you can do to make it an appealing place, at least for your alliance members, "citizens" or whatever you want to call it. That includes potential customers to the shop too, that however requires social skills beyond of the ones you can purchase in stations across the cluster.

Still, want to roleplay the sadistic asshat because of "lulz"? Fine, you have every right to do it. Just don't excpect people that want to get some quality out of their often limited gametime to play along.

It's not a matter of adapt, HTFU, grow a pair, it's a matter of choice and consequence. See what I did there?

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2012-12-17 16:36:38 UTC
dexington wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The problem is that the nullsec alliances ingore what they actually are.

They are empires. Empire builders, ever heard of it?
No, the problem is that the game mechanics don't allow for empire building on a scale that even remotely comes close to providing the facilities and expedience offered by highsec. Until they allow for that, the alliances should remember that they are not — and never can be — empires.

Father Amarria wrote:
You Choose to move to Null Sec knowing the limitations of what you are getting yourself into.
…and they also chose highsec because the lack of limitations, and that's where the entire problem lies: the supposedly player-run areas are more limited in what players can do than the NPC-run ones. It really should be the other way around so that they can choose to actually, fully move to null sec.


Just wanted to highlight that part, THAT is the core problem.

Funny part is high sec people are constantly asking to be left alone, but when anyone proposes changes that would amount to people leaving them alone because things can now be done in null sec, they pitch a fit lol.


And what is it you can't do in null?


Make 100 mil an hour not including LP by shooting incursion rats without even having local up, or 60-70 mil an hour running missions non-stop without even having local up, that's what.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-12-17 16:39:16 UTC
Lets not Burn the guy who is retired and now enjoys his time in EVE mining. I put in my days / months / years punching some ass clowns clock.

Now I punch my own Clock in EVE.

If I want to move to Null Sec and deal with Null Sec operations I will.

But I do not. Nor is it written anywhere in the EULA that I have to move to Null Sec.

If your not making ISK in Null Sec, it has 0 to do with the players in High Sec.

**** Poor management is your own downfall.

Everyone wants what someone else has. If your not making isk then go to where you can. High Sec is the training grounds for rookies. Unless you want 10 mil can I have some isk requests on an hourly basis stop crying about what you cant make in Null Sec. You have 3 slots per account for toons. Not like you can not have a fleet in Null and a Fleet in High and send isk between them.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#33 - 2012-12-17 16:46:55 UTC
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#34 - 2012-12-17 16:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Father Amarria wrote:


Everyone wants what someone else has. If your not making isk then go to where you can. High Sec is the training grounds for rookies. Unless you want 10 mil can I have some isk requests on an hourly basis stop crying about what you cant make in Null Sec. You have 3 slots per account for toons. Not like you can not have a fleet in Null and a Fleet in High and send isk between them.


This is terrible logic and somewhat of a contradiction.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#35 - 2012-12-17 17:00:36 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
empires based on territory and conflict over territory should be based on natural resources, eg russia
empires based on adding value to resources a.k.a industry do not need territory, eg singapore

industry and sov warfare is a contradiction
empires in space game working as intended


A thousand times no and here's why: a lot of nullsec is empty and - to put it politely - worthless because there is nothing worth building there.

Holding Sov and actually doing something with it is actually worlds apart. There needs to be a lot more thant spawned and hence CCP created resources to fix the issues at hand.

Why not give players huge starbases anchorable as seperate celestials to be used to rival highsec industry? Keyword: rival as in competition

Why not give players the chance to fortify their systems properly instead of having x-alliance being able to destroy it all at the click of a button or jump from a titan because they are bored?

Why not give players the chance to build structres that spawn lvl 4 and 5 mission generating agents with null appropriate value? - Risk/Reward

Those are just examples and there's so much more that would make nullsec a thriving place worth living in and fighting over other than Tech or boredom.

Just give people a reason to defend what they have once again and give people the tools to build said empire themselves. Isn't that the ultimate defintion of a sandbox?

It's not about taking stuff away from one party and shipping it over to the other, it's about putting the two on equally appealing ground with pros and cons.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-12-17 17:08:33 UTC
Look I know there are great Corps / Alliances in Null Sec.
I know that there should be a better reward for the Risk taken in Null Sec.
I am in complete agreement with you on that.
I also know from having read that a System in Null Sec will not produce better yields of XYZ is mined and continually mined on a daily basis.
I know that not every territory in Null Sec is Pirate controlled.

But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.

If rookies could not make easy isk to afford skill books that cost 100's of millions of isk to billions of isk how would you propose they earn the isk to get them? Are you going to shell it out for them?

Null Sec is a whole new ball park of the entire mechanics of the game.

Players have to put the time in to make a system a level 5 industrial system. It's just not going to spawn the next day because you added a better ore yield Mod to your PoS / Stations.


SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-12-17 17:09:51 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
The faster you clear a belt the more ISK you make. Unlike some who are part time players some of us are fulltime players with 8+ hours a day to just have fun.


To be honest you sound more like the 23 hours a day kind of guy.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-12-17 17:12:12 UTC
SaKoil wrote:
Father Amarria wrote:
The faster you clear a belt the more ISK you make. Unlike some who are part time players some of us are fulltime players with 8+ hours a day to just have fun.


To be honest you sound more like the 23 hours a day kind of guy.


Retirement has it's Privi's.
Eight Two
SWIFT Inc.
#39 - 2012-12-17 17:13:51 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
Look I know there are great Corps / Alliances in Null Sec.
I know that there should be a better reward for the Risk taken in Null Sec.
I am in complete agreement with you on that.
I also know from having read that a System in Null Sec will not produce better yields of XYZ is mined and continually mined on a daily basis.
I know that not every territory in Null Sec is Pirate controlled.

But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.

If rookies could not make easy isk to afford skill books that cost 100's of millions of isk to billions of isk how would you propose they earn the isk to get them? Are you going to shell it out for them?

Null Sec is a whole new ball park of the entire mechanics of the game.

Players have to put the time in to make a system a level 5 industrial system. It's just not going to spawn the next day because you added a better ore yield Mod to your PoS / Stations.




I'm with you for the most part, but don't you find it coincidential that the ones making the isk in highsec are actually not the rookies but the organized isk-farming fleets run and played by people that have been in the game for years?

It's the whole mechanic that is inherently broken here.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#40 - 2012-12-17 17:15:09 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
But saying that High Sec is to easy a reward... your not looking at the Fact High Sec was designed for Rookies to Strive in till they are ready to face the challenges of Life in Null Sec.
Just one problem: that is not a fact.

If it really were for rookies, the payout wouldn't be nearly as high since rookies have nothing to spend that kind of money on.