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THINK TANK -- ✓GRAPHICS Revolution! *NEW

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#241 - 2013-01-07 17:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Read through about half of this thread, and saw some mentions of Star Citizen.

Listen, I'm a huge Wing Commander series fan, but you cannot compare it to Eve. Star Citizen's graphics WILL look better than Eve, but that's because Star Citizen isn't an MMO. It's been revealed that all combat in Star Citizen is going to be instanced, with 24 to 36 ships TOTAL in any one instance.

Anyone here in favour of limiting Eve combat to 36 ships in any one system? Cause that's what it would take to allow the kind of graphics the OP is whining for.


I told someone this in the forums here about three weeks ago, about how the two can't be compared other than they are both space games. I basically got told I was wrong (with less kind words), and unfortunately the article I'd read on SC was in a magazine, not on the internet, so I couldn't link it to demonstrate what I was talking about, so I just bailed. Why don't people get this? Star Citizen is going to be nothing like EVE.


no one is comparing Star Citizen to EvE.
WE are just using it as a comparison to what is graphically possible today and then we compare it back to the graphics of EvE to prove EvE still has a lot of work to do if it were to compete with other games on the market today.
As much as the gameplay element attracts players . For the new generation ,we'll need to keep the eye candies up if EvE were to survive another decade



Actually, YOU did. We have had this conversation already, you and I. You are still doing what I said you were doing all those pages ago. You are comparing EVE directly to Star Citizen and games like it and demanding that CCP make EVE the same way. What is graphically possible for Star Citizen will not be possible for EVE as they are two completely different kinds of games with very different sets of limitations.

An MMO like EVE will likely as not, never be as graphically complex as a single or small multi-player game. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, with facts, figures and descriptions of technical limitations and yet you insist on repeating the same tired thing and then denying you ever said it. If you wish to compare EVE with other games, then do so, but please stop using games from completely different market sectors to do it.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Slap Chop
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2013-01-07 17:41:48 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
ain't bullshiting , you just need to optimize your PC with Tune Up or some other utilities .

BTW, i recently upgrade to a i5 3570k and GTX660ti combo with 8 GB of ram .
I can now fly into Gas clouds Lol


You're flat out lying to an industry professional, fyi.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#243 - 2013-01-07 17:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
universe.......procedural.....generation....aagh........must......resist.....walking....in.....stations........

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#244 - 2013-01-07 18:07:12 UTC
My little purple boxes and range rings look the same as they did in 2003. I guess I didn't get the GFX updates :(
iskflakes
#245 - 2013-01-07 18:22:02 UTC
Confirming EVE's engine and graphics need to be modernized.

-
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#246 - 2013-01-08 07:06:32 UTC
Too much talk here. Go fly and do stuff.

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#247 - 2013-01-08 07:19:25 UTC
Slap Chop wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
ain't bullshiting , you just need to optimize your PC with Tune Up or some other utilities .

BTW, i recently upgrade to a i5 3570k and GTX660ti combo with 8 GB of ram .
I can now fly into Gas clouds Lol


You're flat out lying to an industry professional, fyi.


If lying makes me richer or helps me gain face , maybe .
But since we are two talking heads sitting behind the avatar of someone who looks nothing likes us , I don't see the incentive

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Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#248 - 2013-01-08 07:20:06 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
universe.......procedural.....generation....aagh........must......resist.....walking....in.....stations........


Universe... procedural... generation will crash.... server

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Reiisha
#249 - 2013-01-08 09:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Reiisha
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Baby ChuChu wrote:
Sorry, but I think it's kind of a slap in the face to the art team (as well as CCP as a whole) to say they're in dire need of a graphical update. They've been making great improvements in the graphics department for a while now and there's still more to come.

Sure, Eve isn't the best looking game around, but it still looks great. It's gonna be 10 years old next year. 10. Very few, if any, 10+ year old polygonal 3d games look even half as good as Eve. Hell, you still get a couple of games up until this very day that don't look as good as Eve.

Just saying...


Well true, but I'm just saying .
Where is the revolution?

Lets take DICE as an example.

They published the Frostbite engine back at 2008
And each year we see considerable improvements , and today we have BF3, one of the best looking game on the market.

Then we have Dunia engine.
I don't think much needs to be said.

Back to the topic.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.


This post kinda shows you don't know much about how graphics/game engines work...

EVE switched over to a 'new' engine in 2007 with Trinity. This is the base they're currently working on.

You have to remember that Frostbite 1 and 2 aren't exactly "the same" - That's like saying Unreal Engine 1 and 2 are "the same", or Quake 2 and 3 are "the same". There are significant differences between the engine versions, which is a reason why something like Bad Company can't simply be upgraded to use Frostbite 2.

Think of it this way: The engine is the very core, the foundation of a game. Switching it out would be a lot like trying to replace the foundations of a skyscraper - You're not going to do it, you're going to build a new one on the new foundation (ie, make Battlefield 3 instead of patching Bad Company 2).

CCP actually DID replace a lot of the foundation in 2007 (and is currently still making adjustments). They cannot be expected to rebuild the entire game from the ground up every few years like you are suggesting.

Ivy Romanova wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
universe.......procedural.....generation....aagh........must......resist.....walking....in.....stations........


Universe... procedural... generation will crash.... server


Why would it? With proper synchronisation, i don't see why it can't work. The problem is whether it should work since a much larger universe would mean less players meeting each other and less competition over economic resources, which could completely crash the market and a lot of incentives to wage war or even fight at all.

That said, the current universe is procedural aswell, just has been generated ahead of time ;)

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#250 - 2013-01-08 09:46:38 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Baby ChuChu wrote:
Sorry, but I think it's kind of a slap in the face to the art team (as well as CCP as a whole) to say they're in dire need of a graphical update. They've been making great improvements in the graphics department for a while now and there's still more to come.

Sure, Eve isn't the best looking game around, but it still looks great. It's gonna be 10 years old next year. 10. Very few, if any, 10+ year old polygonal 3d games look even half as good as Eve. Hell, you still get a couple of games up until this very day that don't look as good as Eve.

Just saying...


Well true, but I'm just saying .
Where is the revolution?

Lets take DICE as an example.

They published the Frostbite engine back at 2008
And each year we see considerable improvements , and today we have BF3, one of the best looking game on the market.

Then we have Dunia engine.
I don't think much needs to be said.

Back to the topic.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.


This post kinda shows you don't know much about how graphics/game engines work...

EVE switched over to a 'new' engine in 2007 with Trinity. This is the base they're currently working on.

You have to remember that Frostbite 1 and 2 aren't exactly "the same" - That's like saying Unreal Engine 1 and 2 are "the same", or Quake 2 and 3 are "the same". There are significant differences between the engine versions, which is a reason why something like Bad Company can't simply be upgraded to use Frostbite 2.

Think of it this way: The engine is the very core, the foundation of a game. Switching it out would be a lot like trying to replace the foundations of a skyscraper - You're not going to do it, you're going to build a new one on the new foundation (ie, make Battlefield 3 instead of patching Bad Company 2).

CCP actually DID replace a lot of the foundation in 2007 (and is currently still making adjustments). They cannot be expected to rebuild the entire game from the ground up every few years like you are suggesting.

Ivy Romanova wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
universe.......procedural.....generation....aagh........must......resist.....walking....in.....stations........


Universe... procedural... generation will crash.... server


Why would it? With proper synchronisation, i don't see why it can't work. The problem is whether it should work since a much larger universe would mean less players meeting each other and less competition over economic resources, which could completely crash the market and a lot of incentives to wage war or even fight at all.

That said, the current universe is procedural aswell, just has been generated ahead of time ;)



I guess I have to be clearer .
I pushed out the Frostbite engine progression as an example to how quick engine developments in newer games are as compared to our Trinity Engine .
The development cycle for their engine is .... 3 years at max.
Ours are at.... 4 years .
2003 published.
First major dx9 overhaul at 2007
Now 2012 has passed ,still not significant progress in graphics architecture , which by the industry standard , we should be at least using DX10 or DX11 by now.


Procedural generation won't work , we the players move further and further out , spreading thinner and thinner, the server can't use unload the cache . They're still there. So the performance requirement on CCP's end would be HUGGGGEe.
Considering we needed Ti-DL to solve the lag issue , I don't think the server can take it .

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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#251 - 2013-01-08 11:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
Procedural generation won't work


When you want atmospheric flight you want procedural graphics. More so, when you want to have procedural system for content when you want asteroid belts forming all over the galaxy. Imagine those unexplored pockets of space, and the people exploring it, why not? When people want, they will leave crowded systems to produce and mine, others will be searching for them. Could it water down the fun? I think not, just scale generation of new systems the universe has to offer to amount of players on the server. And procedural generation of content will not crash the server, certainly you can halt your client if you run procedural on microscopic resolution of graphic detail.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#252 - 2013-01-08 11:45:09 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
Procedural generation won't work


When you want atmospheric flight you want procedural graphics. More so, when you want to have procedural system when you want asteroid belts forming all over the galaxy. Imagine those unexplored pockets of space, and the people exploring it, why not? When people want, they will leave crowded systems to produce and mine, others will be searching for them. Could it water down the fun? I think not, just scale generation of new systems the universe has to offer to amount of players on the server. And it will not crash the server, it can certainly crash your client if you run procedural on microscopic resolution of detail.


when procedual generation is a thing in a MMORPG.

Imagine the immense cache load on the server .
Beside from the conventional space loggers , they'll have to be constantly producing new space and logging them into the database to .
They're literally creating new space as we go , and then we have to update it with the client as we go .
On paper its a GREAT idea , but the technical difficulty maybe a bit..... far fetched

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#253 - 2013-01-08 11:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
The whole thing with server load is data rich content, procedural content is low data rich, client calculating is much of the work. And it could have be just a bunch of directions from server to your client, every system born in a minute will have a small number, this number will be interpreted by your client. Client will then calculate all the terrain, seas, and planets, with asteroid fields. Ever heard about fractals? Its something similar, but not quite it.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#254 - 2013-01-08 19:26:59 UTC
i might be wrong... but isnt eve single threaded and thus having 2 8 1249235234 cores dosnt matters at all?

Having an I7 I5, phenom or whatever barely matters on eve compared to raw single core perfomance and GPU perfomance.

Eve needs to be multithreaded, also games like homeworld 2 albeit not online, can in some chances have a load as high as that of eve in a single node, when you have thousands and thousands of objects floating around, that need to keep their stats synced and still manages to keep some quite awesome graphics.


mods like complex in hw2 can often get to this kind of situations in multiplayer turtling games, where people will build obsenely large armies with sick ammounts of fighters.

might not be easy, but i m quite sure its posible to increase eve graphic quality by at least an order of magnitude.
Pitrolo Orti
Doomheim
#255 - 2013-01-08 19:58:37 UTC
MOAR Graphics PLZ

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#256 - 2013-01-09 02:24:53 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
i might be wrong... but isnt eve single threaded and thus having 2 8 1249235234 cores dosnt matters at all?

Having an I7 I5, phenom or whatever barely matters on eve compared to raw single core perfomance and GPU perfomance.

Eve needs to be multithreaded, also games like homeworld 2 albeit not online, can in some chances have a load as high as that of eve in a single node, when you have thousands and thousands of objects floating around, that need to keep their stats synced and still manages to keep some quite awesome graphics.


mods like complex in hw2 can often get to this kind of situations in multiplayer turtling games, where people will build obsenely large armies with sick ammounts of fighters.

might not be easy, but i m quite sure its posible to increase eve graphic quality by at least an order of magnitude.


That'll. Take quite a bit of change of direction on Trinity part.
HOWEVER ,considering the collab between Nvidia and CCP on the last conference , the 2013 EvE Con may just bring us some surprises Lol

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
PalkAn4ik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-01-09 03:05:57 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
the OP seems to forget that not all of us can afford a new PC with the latest graph cards EACH year


EvE with max quality couldn't budge the load past 20% on my 6y/o GPU. Now that I have a 3 y/o GPU and it sits more around 5% GPU load at max settings with 60fps.

You don't need a new GPU every year to appreciate how antiquated the graphics are.

If I don't have at least 80% CPU load or 80% GPU load, I should not be getting sub 60fps, yet this happens quite often.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2013-01-09 04:57:06 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Baby ChuChu wrote:
Sorry, but I think it's kind of a slap in the face to the art team (as well as CCP as a whole) to say they're in dire need of a graphical update. They've been making great improvements in the graphics department for a while now and there's still more to come.

Sure, Eve isn't the best looking game around, but it still looks great. It's gonna be 10 years old next year. 10. Very few, if any, 10+ year old polygonal 3d games look even half as good as Eve. Hell, you still get a couple of games up until this very day that don't look as good as Eve.

Just saying...


Well true, but I'm just saying .
Where is the revolution?

Lets take DICE as an example.

They published the Frostbite engine back at 2008
And each year we see considerable improvements , and today we have BF3, one of the best looking game on the market.

Then we have Dunia engine.
I don't think much needs to be said.

Back to the topic.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.

BF3 is not the "best looking game" its just publixized as such, and is publicized ALOT. ive played games 2-3 years older than BF3 that friends mistook for a movie when they walked in on me playing it, the games were just more obscure and therefore never got publicity, you knwo all those long lists of "great games youve never heard of".

It's kinda like saying WoW is the ebst MMO just because the media keeps saying it is because so many kids who play it says it is, but then you step back and realize, EvE is the best MMO ever. and anyone who disagrees with that is a PHILANTHROPIST.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-01-09 04:59:47 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Baby ChuChu wrote:
Sorry, but I think it's kind of a slap in the face to the art team (as well as CCP as a whole) to say they're in dire need of a graphical update. They've been making great improvements in the graphics department for a while now and there's still more to come.

Sure, Eve isn't the best looking game around, but it still looks great. It's gonna be 10 years old next year. 10. Very few, if any, 10+ year old polygonal 3d games look even half as good as Eve. Hell, you still get a couple of games up until this very day that don't look as good as Eve.

Just saying...


Well true, but I'm just saying .
Where is the revolution?

Lets take DICE as an example.

They published the Frostbite engine back at 2008
And each year we see considerable improvements , and today we have BF3, one of the best looking game on the market.

Then we have Dunia engine.
I don't think much needs to be said.

Back to the topic.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.

BF3 is not the "best looking game" its just publixized as such, and is publicized ALOT. ive played games 2-3 years older than BF3 that friends mistook for a movie when they walked in on me playing it, the games were just more obscure and therefore never got publicity, you knwo all those long lists of "great games youve never heard of".

It's kinda like saying WoW is the ebst MMO just because the media keeps saying it is because so many kids who play it says it is, but then you step back and realize, EvE is the best MMO ever. and anyone who disagrees with that is a PHILANTHROPIST.



No one disagree on you with that .
But on a gameplay and graphics balance , Frostbite 2 has it balanced the best .
Anyone can run BF3 .

Why are we talking about BF3 and why are we talking about WoW???
No one ever said EvE is not the best MMO , we are just saying it can be better :P

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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#260 - 2013-01-09 05:20:28 UTC
Van Gogh is old, his paintings need to be updated. The Mona Lisa needs anisotropic filtering.

While I agree, zoomed up close the textures aren't too clever, CCP is working on updating its ships to V3 plus
there was that piece at the fanfest that showed improvements in the graphics in conjunction with nVidia. Some of the ships are getting new models [though whether models is what the OP is asking for is another matter] and Im sure there will be some new pos's coming. However the priority is the gameplay, graphics only take you so far.

Or you could play DUST 514 which looks nice.