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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1961 - 2013-01-02 20:36:07 UTC
mynnna wrote:
e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.


Yet you believe doing all that long list of stuff in one chunk will work out well.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1962 - 2013-01-02 20:53:13 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Why don't you guys just do another Jitageddon about it all? Best form of a temper tantrum I have seen to date.

You seem really bitter.

I wonder why that is...

NC dot guy.

I don't know what did we do to NC.

Oh wait....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1963 - 2013-01-02 20:54:35 UTC
mynna you need to change your avatar, you look too much like marlona
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1964 - 2013-01-02 21:11:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
mynnna wrote:
e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.


Yet you believe doing all that long list of stuff in one chunk will work out well.


Lots of cahnge all at once is indeed a bad idea most of the time but at least implementing some to see what results happen would be a starting point. Ramping up te cost to use production lines in high sec so it's about the same as the upkeep on a POS would be a good start. It would not fix the lack of lines issue in null but it would at least make the cost closer. Null would still have a higher cost on security (keeping that POS in a single piece) and logistic (getting all the darn trit there). High sec would not really be impacted beside the increase price in finished product price going up a bit to cover the extra expense.

If this ever happen, the best way to do it would be as stealth as possible so the impact come fast. If it's announced months in advance, people will stock up on finished product like crazy to benefit from the price hike hiding the real results for some time. The real results need to be seen fast on the large scale so we know it it solved something of it it broke something. Then you can work from that point.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1965 - 2013-01-02 22:26:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
mynnna wrote:
e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.


Yet you believe doing all that long list of stuff in one chunk will work out well.


Lots of cahnge all at once is indeed a bad idea most of the time but at least implementing some to see what results happen would be a starting point. Ramping up te cost to use production lines in high sec so it's about the same as the upkeep on a POS would be a good start. It would not fix the lack of lines issue in null but it would at least make the cost closer. Null would still have a higher cost on security (keeping that POS in a single piece) and logistic (getting all the darn trit there). High sec would not really be impacted beside the increase price in finished product price going up a bit to cover the extra expense.

If this ever happen, the best way to do it would be as stealth as possible so the impact come fast. If it's announced months in advance, people will stock up on finished product like crazy to benefit from the price hike hiding the real results for some time. The real results need to be seen fast on the large scale so we know it it solved something of it it broke something. Then you can work from that point.


Imo the changes should happen as follows:

1) POSes revamp. Biggest effect in game of all, including an proxy effect on null stations. The effect on high ends could be devastating, expecially those coming from WHs.
2) CCP evaluates the data and the effects and eventually rebalances roids minerals composition.
3) Null sec stations revamp.
4) CCP evaluates the data and the effects.
5) What's still off is looked in hi sec, beginning from making slots costs dynamic and tied to how much it costs doing the same stuff at a POS.
6) CCP evaluates the data and the effects.
7) Nerfs time, if any are needed.


That's a very different but professional approach, compared to the "do it all, do it now, get a bloody mess" that some seem to demand in this thread.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1966 - 2013-01-02 22:42:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Where did I mention any kind of causation between creating 100000000000000 photocopy cry threads and actually getting any kind of effect off them?

In fact you are wasting your time, if CCP EVER makes a buff or nerf based on forums claims they would be falling down to Blizzard levels.


It mirrors the depth of your post.


So, you support those who create game balance based on who cries louder on the forums? Got it.

Nobody here is crying except for those who want to maintain the status quo. We're presenting reasoned arguments here, in the hopes that CCP will listen to our logic.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tesal
#1967 - 2013-01-02 22:50:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Where did I mention any kind of causation between creating 100000000000000 photocopy cry threads and actually getting any kind of effect off them?

In fact you are wasting your time, if CCP EVER makes a buff or nerf based on forums claims they would be falling down to Blizzard levels.


It mirrors the depth of your post.


So, you support those who create game balance based on who cries louder on the forums? Got it.

Nobody here is crying except for those who want to maintain the status quo. We're presenting reasoned arguments here, in the hopes that CCP will listen to our logic.


And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1968 - 2013-01-02 23:03:57 UTC
Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

"ZOMG everyone will unsubscribe" is not a reasoned argument.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#1969 - 2013-01-02 23:07:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Making it possible (and advantageous from both an alliance and industrialist standpoint) to mine and build ships used by nullsec actually in nullsec would end the stigma against industrial corps in 0.0, for one. As it stands they're tolerated at best, abused at worst.


Inconvenience or even downright saying "no" to somebody asking to join as industrial would be a sensible reaction.

"Stigma" towards industrialists who would have wanted to risk and move in null, instead, is exactly part of what I call ~ideology~ and tells much more about a sh!t mentality and attitude than about deficiencies in the game and is a big part of the null sec "problem".

It's also worrysome when reading a portion of the GS posts, it seems to read BoB players sentences.

Actually Alliances like GS will actually suffer due to there reputations in getting enough hard core Indy types, the smaller less known alliances will probably get more as the players will be less worried about getting out there only to be blown up by GS.

GS reputation will have preceded it, except apparently by people wanting a third party for titans.


Actually not. We have plenty of players who are or would be industrial minded in the alliance already, if only doing it didn't drive one to insanity.

That's something you and many others don't seem to get. Many of us advocating for these changes don't give a rip about attracting new players to nullsec and frankly know it won't happen, but already have players who would take advantage of it. If it does happen, great. New blood is always good. It's just not the primary goal.


e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.

This is exactly why I am less worried about this change with Goonswarm.

Yes you do have INDY characters quite a lot of them, but if Null is given lo-ends I doubt you will have enough to supply your requirements of both lo-ends and hi-ends. So your very attitude will end up hurting you.

Yes others will be more welcoming and so others will get more military muscle, yes you can just go to high and buy what you need but one of the requirements to prevent the destruction of hi-sec markets needs to be an increase in the jump fuel consumption. So yes your crappy attitude to getting new INDY players will cost you a lot.Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1970 - 2013-01-02 23:09:47 UTC
Tesal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Where did I mention any kind of causation between creating 100000000000000 photocopy cry threads and actually getting any kind of effect off them?

In fact you are wasting your time, if CCP EVER makes a buff or nerf based on forums claims they would be falling down to Blizzard levels.


It mirrors the depth of your post.


So, you support those who create game balance based on who cries louder on the forums? Got it.

Nobody here is crying except for those who want to maintain the status quo. We're presenting reasoned arguments here, in the hopes that CCP will listen to our logic.


And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

Honestly the only one that I have seen that was closed to reasoned was one based on the fact that CCP has allowed NPC facilities to be so great for so long that it is now to late to change.

Yes no one but babies likes change but change is often necessary.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tesal
#1971 - 2013-01-02 23:12:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

"ZOMG everyone will unsubscribe" is not a reasoned argument.


I didn't say that, you did. You just don't like a contrarian point of view so ignore or belittle anyone who questions your line of reasoning.
Frying Doom
#1972 - 2013-01-02 23:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
mynnna wrote:
e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.


Yet you believe doing all that long list of stuff in one chunk will work out well.


Lots of cahnge all at once is indeed a bad idea most of the time but at least implementing some to see what results happen would be a starting point. Ramping up te cost to use production lines in high sec so it's about the same as the upkeep on a POS would be a good start. It would not fix the lack of lines issue in null but it would at least make the cost closer. Null would still have a higher cost on security (keeping that POS in a single piece) and logistic (getting all the darn trit there). High sec would not really be impacted beside the increase price in finished product price going up a bit to cover the extra expense.

If this ever happen, the best way to do it would be as stealth as possible so the impact come fast. If it's announced months in advance, people will stock up on finished product like crazy to benefit from the price hike hiding the real results for some time. The real results need to be seen fast on the large scale so we know it it solved something of it it broke something. Then you can work from that point.


Imo the changes should happen as follows:

1) POSes revamp. Biggest effect in game of all, including an proxy effect on null stations. The effect on high ends could be devastating, expecially those coming from WHs.
2) CCP evaluates the data and the effects and eventually rebalances roids minerals composition.
3) Null sec stations revamp.
4) CCP evaluates the data and the effects.
5) What's still off is looked in hi sec, beginning from making slots costs dynamic and tied to how much it costs doing the same stuff at a POS.
6) CCP evaluates the data and the effects.
7) Nerfs time, if any are needed.


That's a very different but professional approach, compared to the "do it all, do it now, get a bloody mess" that some seem to demand in this thread.

I do agree that this is the safer method but given the speed of CCP it would mean that they would implement those changes over another 10 years and that would mean another 10 years while POSs where still pointless in Hi-sec.


But I can see the value of your approach, only people have waited so long for this I don't know if they would stick around while CCP did things the slow way, it has taken yars to get them to finally do a POS revamp so they really need to do the lot within a 12 month period. Oh and you left out nerf jump drive fuel consumption

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1973 - 2013-01-02 23:18:48 UTC
Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

Could you please summarize these points? I've not seen any for a while in this thread that haven't been addressed.
Frying Doom
#1974 - 2013-01-02 23:20:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
mynnna wrote:
e: Regarding hilarious and arbitrary sandbox restrictions ("You can only take 5% of space" lol), who here remembers when CCP implemented a limit of five POS per day per system in an attempt to limit things? Yeah that worked out great.


Yet you believe doing all that long list of stuff in one chunk will work out well.


Lots of cahnge all at once is indeed a bad idea most of the time but at least implementing some to see what results happen would be a starting point. Ramping up te cost to use production lines in high sec so it's about the same as the upkeep on a POS would be a good start. It would not fix the lack of lines issue in null but it would at least make the cost closer. Null would still have a higher cost on security (keeping that POS in a single piece) and logistic (getting all the darn trit there). High sec would not really be impacted beside the increase price in finished product price going up a bit to cover the extra expense.

If this ever happen, the best way to do it would be as stealth as possible so the impact come fast. If it's announced months in advance, people will stock up on finished product like crazy to benefit from the price hike hiding the real results for some time. The real results need to be seen fast on the large scale so we know it it solved something of it it broke something. Then you can work from that point.

The biggest problem is the amount of time it has taken to get to the point where CCP are looking at a POS revamp and looking into fixing Null.

People do not have infinite patience, so I would prefer to see it done and then fixed on the fly like FW has been, they released it realized a problem existed and fixed it, in the mean time people got to have some good fights in FW.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1975 - 2013-01-02 23:22:27 UTC
Why wasn't the subject of industry and the risks involved not a hot topic years and years ago??
Frying Doom
#1976 - 2013-01-02 23:26:40 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Why wasn't the subject of industry and the risks involved not a hot topic years and years ago??

To be honest because there was more being done in areas of space and new areas of space were opening up.

Oh and the fact was that if you posted in GD saying you were and INDY type you got abused and so you just stopped.

The back ground noise has been going on for years, I have seen so many miners become mission runners over the years because mining and industry were just crap. Not to mention those that just left the game.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1977 - 2013-01-02 23:28:10 UTC
Tesal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

"ZOMG everyone will unsubscribe" is not a reasoned argument.


I didn't say that, you did. You just don't like a contrarian point of view so ignore or belittle anyone who questions your line of reasoning.

If you want to question my line of reasoning, go ahead and do so. I'll provide a logical rebuttal. If all you're going to do is say "NO U" then that's about all you can expect from me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tesal
#1978 - 2013-01-02 23:28:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.

Could you please summarize these points? I've not seen any for a while in this thread that haven't been addressed.


1. there is already a balance between hi, low and null that would be upset.
2. there would be nothing to stop the HBC and CFC from rolling 15k new alts and supplanting hi-sec industry completely if these changes were made. That would leave even more power concentrated in their hands.

Those are some of my ideas.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1979 - 2013-01-02 23:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Marlona Sky wrote:
Why wasn't the subject of industry and the risks involved not a hot topic years and years ago??

was a bit overshadowed by the Dominion-sired Age of Supercaps, where a few dozen supercaps could just steamroll alliances of thousands through a combination of OP capital-class drones and node crashes. Before that was anticipation for the Dominion expansion and its promised nullsec industry revamp that never materialized.

making nullsec 'playable' was the greater goal at the time, requests for 'balancing' would come later
Tesal
#1980 - 2013-01-02 23:34:18 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

If you want to question my line of reasoning, go ahead and do so. I'll provide a logical rebuttal. If all you're going to do is say "NO U" then that's about all you can expect from me.


You need to learn how to read.

Tesal wrote:
And reasoned arguments have been made against it. I trust CCP won't do anything radical.


Its merely a statement that other points were made and a statement against radical change. You didn't logically rebut anything.