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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1881 - 2013-01-02 05:32:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
But until recently Null residents have been unwilling for any kind of compromise.


And the highsec residents have been since when exactly?

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1882 - 2013-01-02 05:32:52 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


Malcanis' tore this apart some 30 pages ago, please either bring something new or go away.


Other than the small problem that.... they didn't.
Repeatadly claiming that Null must be better does not make it true that Null must be better.
Repeatadly claiming that the only way Eve can be a Sandbox is if Null is better at everything does not make it true.
And repeatadly trying to nerf High Sec just pisses off a whole lot of people, most of whom otherwise would be on your side, cheering for Null Industry buffs to make it practical.
Frying Doom
#1883 - 2013-01-02 05:37:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
it seems to me that some people want it all the manufacturing security of Hi Sec and the mineral wealth of Null.

Also you seem to assume that Hi Sec access to factory slots is a given, I’ve setup several POS because its practically impossible to get access to research or factory slots in Hi Sec, also refining, manufacturing and research costs also escalate significantly unless you have faction standings with the station, and who likes to grind?. To be truthful I’d rather do what’s needed at multiple POS or an outpost.


We don't want the manufacturing security of highsec in nullsec, that would be utterly pointless. We want to be able to upgrade our nullsec industry capabilites for all the time, effort & isk we sink in to them.

If you're having trouble finding available slots in highsec, you need to move around.



I can agree with being able to upgrade facilities but not to the same capacity or efficiency as Hi Sec facilities, there is time and effort but also immense rewards and I don’t really see the point of whining in the forums about the lack of facilities.

As to moving I’m a tad old and several injuries sort of inhibit my getting around so I prefer to limit my travels to jump in, jump out of the systems that I hide my POS in, it makes for easy travel and I miss the locals at those annoying gate camps, I also like to bubble the gates and have a hictor on hand before I jump it may not help but it eases my tired old mind.


With the effort put into it, the production facility should at least be able to be as efficient as high sec ones.

It all comes down to purpose

What is the purpose of NPC facilities, are they there to be the best, where POSs and outposts just added as a cruel joke. Thats pretty much all they are atm, hundreds of millions a month for...........?

NPC facilities like everything else NPC in this game should be worse. You buy things off NPCs like blue prints they are the basic model with no add ons but they are not that cheap either. That is what NPC facilities should be basic and not that cheap.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1884 - 2013-01-02 05:39:39 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
But until recently Null residents have been unwilling for any kind of compromise.


And the highsec residents have been since when exactly?

Well if we ignore most of the posts in EvE-O, they have always been warm friendly and open mindedLol,
Hell I am still sort of a hi-secr myself. I want more else where but keep ending up on my alts in high as its the best cash with the least risk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1885 - 2013-01-02 05:42:42 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Malcanis' tore this apart some 30 pages ago, please either bring something new or go away.


Other than the small problem that.... they didn't.
Repeatadly claiming that Null must be better does not make it true that Null must be better.
Repeatadly claiming that the only way Eve can be a Sandbox is if Null is better at everything does not make it true.
And repeatadly trying to nerf High Sec just pisses off a whole lot of people, most of whom otherwise would be on your side, cheering for Null Industry buffs to make it practical.

I can understand why this conversation keeps going hisec vs Null but its not really about that it is NPC vs player owned.
Yes there are some things including the title that make it go that way but most of that was over 50 pages ago.
A few things should be done to improve -0.0 and below space but most of the canges need to be done on a NPC to player change.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1886 - 2013-01-02 05:42:57 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

NPC nullsec?


It would still be worse than lowsec. Lowsec at least has more stations and easier access to markets and customers.

Now if a nullsec industrial revamp was done using POS. If it included things like anchoring a POS for yourself, and/or much more flexible permissions, refining mods that refined 100% instantly like a station. Then NPC nullsec industry could be a thing. It would be as good as anywhere else you could drop a new and improved POS, and would only lack super building and cyno gen /jump bridge of upgraded sov systems.
Powers Sa
#1887 - 2013-01-02 05:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Powers Sa
Bump Truck wrote:


14) You broke null and now you want to break highsec too, go away!

- No player caused the problems null is now facing. HighSec produces goods so cheap and in such great supply it’s not worth doing industry in null. If you do it’s an unnecessary hassle and you open yourself to attack by your enemies. This causes the majority of moneymaking to be done in highsec, making things worse.

15) You just hate high sec players, you hate freedom!

- This isn’t an emotional argument it’s about balancing game dynamics. There are trolls and griefers in EVE, that’s part of it, this isn’t by or about them.


Hey look the tea party made it into EVE ONLINE.

Frying Doom wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
But until recently Null residents have been unwilling for any kind of compromise.


And the highsec residents have been since when exactly?

Well if we ignore most of the posts in EvE-O, they have always been warm friendly and open mindedLol,
Hell I am still sort of a hi-secr myself. I want more else where but keep ending up on my alts in high as its the best cash with the least risk.

According to 6-7 months of locators, you've been living in wormholes since you left BTC, when you aren't running a viator to a market hub.

Yeah, I keep track of people.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Garou Carew
Doomheim
#1888 - 2013-01-02 05:45:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
I don’t really see the point of whining in the forums about the lack of facilities.


It works for the denizens of highsec & a lot quicker too. They only need to complain for 6 months to get the change they desire. We need to complain for years before the idea is considered.


I’ve never had a lot of time for people that whine, and personally I think that the forums are an inappropriate venue to whine. To be honest from what I read there seems to be more Null Sec whiners in the forums than Hi Sec, when Hi Sec players pack a ****** they just cancel their subs for a bit and leave of playing until things improve, the rule of diminishing subs seems to have more of a determining effect in promoting change than whining. Anyway I think that the developers have done a fair job balancing the game, yes there are things that could be improved the question is should they be improved.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1889 - 2013-01-02 05:48:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
it seems to me that some people want it all the manufacturing security of Hi Sec and the mineral wealth of Null.

Also you seem to assume that Hi Sec access to factory slots is a given, I’ve setup several POS because its practically impossible to get access to research or factory slots in Hi Sec, also refining, manufacturing and research costs also escalate significantly unless you have faction standings with the station, and who likes to grind?. To be truthful I’d rather do what’s needed at multiple POS or an outpost.


We don't want the manufacturing security of highsec in nullsec, that would be utterly pointless. We want to be able to upgrade our nullsec industry capabilites for all the time, effort & isk we sink in to them.

If you're having trouble finding available slots in highsec, you need to move around.



I can agree with being able to upgrade facilities but not to the same capacity or efficiency as Hi Sec facilities, there is time and effort but also immense rewards and I don’t really see the point of whining in the forums about the lack of facilities.

As to moving I’m a tad old and several injuries sort of inhibit my getting around so I prefer to limit my travels to jump in, jump out of the systems that I hide my POS in, it makes for easy travel and I miss the locals at those annoying gate camps, I also like to bubble the gates and have a hictor on hand before I jump it may not help but it eases my tired old mind.


With the effort put into it, the production facility should at least be able to be as efficient as high sec ones.

It all comes down to purpose

What is the purpose of NPC facilities, are they there to be the best, where POSs and outposts just added as a cruel joke. Thats pretty much all they are atm, hundreds of millions a month for...........?

NPC facilities like everything else NPC in this game should be worse. You buy things off NPCs like blue prints they are the basic model with no add ons but they are not that cheap either. That is what NPC facilities should be basic and not that cheap.


People have to set them up and keep then in order. It should be possible for them to be as efficient as NPC stuff. Put the entry price higher if needed but at the end, wen all possible upgrade are done to it, it should be pretty much the same. Hell if they still have to be less good than a station, make it so they all keep thier "niches" of what they are ebtter at so people build the one they need the most without having everything in a single basket but the refine rate on the "refining" model should be like the good quality station in high sec, the "production" one like production lines in high and the same for the 2 others. Limit the amount that can eb setup if needed if you still don't want to see too many but it whatever can be built should at least be as good as what is given for "free".
Garou Carew
Doomheim
#1890 - 2013-01-02 05:59:19 UTC
[/quote]

People have to set them up and keep then in order. It should be possible for them to be as efficient as NPC stuff. Put the entry price higher if needed but at the end, wen all possible upgrade are done to it, it should be pretty much the same. Hell if they still have to be less good than a station, make it so they all keep thier "niches" of what they are ebtter at so people build the one they need the most without having everything in a single basket but the refine rate on the "refining" model should be like the good quality station in high sec, the "production" one like production lines in high and the same for the 2 others. Limit the amount that can eb setup if needed if you still don't want to see too many but it whatever can be built should at least be as good as what is given for "free".[/quote]

That would work, as good or better but not at all things as you say a niche. An intelligent constructive suggestion +1
Frying Doom
#1891 - 2013-01-02 06:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


We don't want the manufacturing security of highsec in nullsec, that would be utterly pointless. We want to be able to upgrade our nullsec industry capabilites for all the time, effort & isk we sink in to them.

If you're having trouble finding available slots in highsec, you need to move around.



I can agree with being able to upgrade facilities but not to the same capacity or efficiency as Hi Sec facilities, there is time and effort but also immense rewards and I don’t really see the point of whining in the forums about the lack of facilities.

As to moving I’m a tad old and several injuries sort of inhibit my getting around so I prefer to limit my travels to jump in, jump out of the systems that I hide my POS in, it makes for easy travel and I miss the locals at those annoying gate camps, I also like to bubble the gates and have a hictor on hand before I jump it may not help but it eases my tired old mind.


With the effort put into it, the production facility should at least be able to be as efficient as high sec ones.

It all comes down to purpose

What is the purpose of NPC facilities, are they there to be the best, where POSs and outposts just added as a cruel joke. Thats pretty much all they are atm, hundreds of millions a month for...........?

NPC facilities like everything else NPC in this game should be worse. You buy things off NPCs like blue prints they are the basic model with no add ons but they are not that cheap either. That is what NPC facilities should be basic and not that cheap.


People have to set them up and keep then in order. It should be possible for them to be as efficient as NPC stuff. Put the entry price higher if needed but at the end, wen all possible upgrade are done to it, it should be pretty much the same. Hell if they still have to be less good than a station, make it so they all keep thier "niches" of what they are ebtter at so people build the one they need the most without having everything in a single basket but the refine rate on the "refining" model should be like the good quality station in high sec, the "production" one like production lines in high and the same for the 2 others. Limit the amount that can eb setup if needed if you still don't want to see too many but it whatever can be built should at least be as good as what is given for "free".

I sort of agree there, when a player puts up a pos it is a permanent ongoing cost, not just a pay as you go and to add to that there is risk that some one will kill it so as they are taking extra cost and risk personally I feel they should be better than NPC stations, the POSs by 10% in cost but still having less slots and the Outposts better as they have the ability to be locked out of the outpost or maybe destroyed.

My worry as only having them as good is it still comes down to lack of reward, people with high reps are not fully rewarded in hi-sec, people willing to take the risk of owning a POS wont and people really need to get off the NPC teat.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1892 - 2013-01-02 06:52:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Malcanis' tore this apart some 30 pages ago, please either bring something new or go away.


Other than the small problem that.... they didn't.
Repeatadly claiming that Null must be better does not make it true that Null must be better.
Repeatadly claiming that the only way Eve can be a Sandbox is if Null is better at everything does not make it true.
And repeatadly trying to nerf High Sec just pisses off a whole lot of people, most of whom otherwise would be on your side, cheering for Null Industry buffs to make it practical.

It seems to me you're willfully ignoring the part where highsec industry is one of those cases in this game where you get rewarded for not putting a damn bit of effort or risk into what you're doing, whereas the infrastructure that requires effort and risk is inherently inferior.

I dare you to try to justify this. You can't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1893 - 2013-01-02 07:22:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


Malcanis' tore this apart some 30 pages ago, please either bring something new or go away.


Other than the small problem that.... they didn't.
Repeatadly claiming that Null must be better does not make it true that Null must be better.
Repeatadly claiming that the only way Eve can be a Sandbox is if Null is better at everything does not make it true.
And repeatadly trying to nerf High Sec just pisses off a whole lot of people, most of whom otherwise would be on your side, cheering for Null Industry buffs to make it practical.

It seems to me you're willfully ignoring the part where highsec industry is one of those cases in this game where you get rewarded for not putting a damn bit of effort or risk into what you're doing, whereas the infrastructure that requires effort and risk is inherently inferior.

I dare you to try to justify this. You can't.

Highsec is industrialized and nullsec is a wasteland. Just as plannedddddddddddddddddddddd~~~~~~~~~~~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#1894 - 2013-01-02 07:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Besides the crowd that are not making a huge amount of sense as to why an NPC structure should be better and cheaper than something created by players in a sandbox game, this thread has gone quite well.

Lets hope someone is reading.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1895 - 2013-01-02 08:13:13 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
We have somewhat of a consensus at least:

-Make NPC corps less competitive.

-Make Outposts better.

-Reduce highsec slots and refinery capabilities.

-Rebalance mineral distribution across the ores.

-Once POS are fixed move most industrial capability to POS and leave NPC stations at the minimum required capabilities.


Seems like a self serving repeat of what you have been preaching since 90+ pages.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Hannah Flex
#1896 - 2013-01-02 08:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannah Flex
So what have we established, resolved and learned after 95 pages??

Can we nerf highsec? yes or no
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1897 - 2013-01-02 08:16:19 UTC
Hannah Flex wrote:
So what have we established, resolved and learned after 95 pages??

Can we nerf highsec? yes or no

We not only can, we need to.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1898 - 2013-01-02 08:17:05 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Besides the crowd that are not making a huge amount of sense as to why an NPC structure should be better and cheaper than something created by players in a sandbox game, this thread has gone quite well.

Lets hope someone is reading.

I bet they're reading and going, yeah highsec the the flower of civilization and nullsec is a barbaric animalistic existence, this if perfectly fine. Shocked

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1899 - 2013-01-02 08:19:36 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
The HBC and CFC don't need, nor should they get, more power than they already have.

By supporting the status quo you are supporting the lifestyle of large coalitions like the HBC and CFC. To that, I say thanks.


Yes, in fact diminishing returns should be put both in hi sec to prevent "newbies" making 3500 maelstrom at a time but also in null sec to prevent alliances from taking more than say 5% of the whole space.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1900 - 2013-01-02 08:22:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
null sec to prevent alliances from taking more than say 5% of the whole space.

So why do you draw the line there?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)