EVE General Discussion

This OP topic is worth to read form A to Z because is a good thread, with meny good points.

Null sec whine about empire because null is broken and its full of blues and in general its a safe zone like OP mention.
All what alliances do is seting big blobs sponsored by hi tech moons and on occasion defendin or atack enemy - but is more meta gaming than pure sacrifice and interfere to game play.

Whole pasive moon mining ruin 0.0 because alliances become to lazy , moons are infinite source that allow alliance to buy - produce tytans, super capitals - caps in easy mode, without sacrifice in long therm gaming and paing more atention on production and war strategy, its like easy mode.

People form null feeling bored and out of danger which 0.0 shuld offfer, thay why they focusing on carebears.

Funy thing, pasive mining is core of every big alliance existant factor, and they dare blame miners in empire because they mining in normal way, this is some sort of hiocricy.

Alright, so, here's what I've gotten out of the last few pages of this thread: The issue with high-sec and null-sec seems to largely come down to industry, namely that it's a lot more profitable to set up shop in high-sec than it is in null-sec. And it is. Like Tyberious, I'm going to produce a list of reasons why industry is so much better in high-sec and why you can't do anything about it.

1) Expectations. Industry, for a lot of null alliances, is a dirty word. If you're not out there in the fleet in a PvP ship you're useless deadweight to them. Industry and mining are things done by alts and carebears, not something any right-minded null-sec player should focus on. Needless to say this attitude wins no support among the dedicated industrial players who are capable of setting up an efficient base of operations by themselves or with minimal help, since they'll get run out of the alliance for not showing up to fleet ops in person even though they're really of no help. As a side effect, this further cuts into their profits since if they do show up and lose a ship that replacement comes out of their pocket as often as not.

2) Logistics. High-sec has more people running around in it and has much more solidly-established trade hubs than anywhere else in the game, and to an industrial pilot this is important. All those shiny things industrialists build, especially T2 ships, need materials, and those materials have to come from somewhere. Not only can I buy those materials in a much larger volume in high-sec but I can get them to where I need them easier since I can use freighters without tying up a dozen alliancemates to run interference so I don't get blown up. And if I don't want to do that I can usually find other people to do it for me for a small fee. In null sec, by comparison, moving things around is a sometimes-risky pain in the ass (Ever land in a bubble as a freighter? It will make you cry) and you have to do it yourself. Due to the shortage or absence of some vital materials in most regions of null-sec, especially T2 ship components, you'll probably have to wind up using wormholes or jump freighters to import what you need anyway. Much cheaper and faster to just import the assembled ship than it is to build it there. It's also significantly harder and more time-consuming to build things when you have to bounce between three different POS's in the same system as opposed to the average high-sec 'one station for building and a small POS for research' setup a lot of industrialists have.

3) Unacceptable Risk. Industry is not the most profitable thing in the game, especially not compared to things like market trading, scamming, incursions, or null-sec anomaly farming. Yet the tools an industrialist needs to set up an empire, namely mining barges, exhumers, freighters, and industrial command ships, are among the most expensive and fragile things in the game. The cost of materials involved in a good ten-man mining operation likely exceeds the cost of arming any doctrine subcapital fleet of the same size, but it's less able to defend itself than any of them. Industrial vessels and mining barges are slow, clumsy, and defenseless. In space that gets often roamed they're simply not viable because you'll spend as much time going back and forth between POS's and stations to protect yourself as you will actually mining. Adding to the problem is the fact that mining is probably the dullest, least-interesting, least-interactive thing in the game and I can think of zero people who actually want to pay attention to EVE while mining. That sort of behavior gets you killed in null-sec, and rightfully so, but it doesn't make people more likely to want to go there to mine.

4) Profit. This is always what it ultimately comes down to. People in null-sec, in my experience, don't like paying a lot more than Jita prices for anything. Anyone charging significantly more is labeled a price-gouger and often summarily kicked out. The problem is that they have to use their less-efficient less-capable null-sec operations to compete with prices set by high-efficiency mass-market production moguls. Combined with all the factors above it's generally simpler, more profitable, and less taxing to simply hope for wormholes then import everything you need through them, or use jump-freighters, as opposed to actually building it out in null-sec.

And this is a problem you're never going to be able to fix with mechanical nerfs to high-sec. Either you need to make it easier to set up operations in null-sec or lose the stigma against non-PvP pilots and actually help them get set up out there. Otherwise no matter what you do you'll just make industry across all of EVE harder, which raises the prices on everything you have to import while making it no more available than it already is.

There is definately no added cost from logistics to get that Mercoxit ore unit to the market. And it's not a bigger volume either thus you can mine less per cycle from a mining laser/strip miner than that kernite unit. It also does not have additionnal requirement for tank to amke sure null rats dont blow you up in the belt.

Nah all of those don't exist.

Nothing to see here. Move along people.

Sorry you had to explain this simple and obvious part of mining to General Discussion.

You know something is wrong when the suggested fix to it is to send nuclear nukes all over hi sec instead of pin pointed obvious things like, duh, implement industry slots in null.

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?

The more null sec becomes a copy of hi sec the less its commodities are worth.

The markets don't care if you lose just 3 ships a year because your friends made it possible or because CONCORD makes it possible, they objectively gauge the fact that both places involve the same risk and then assign more and more similar value and thus price on the items.


Said that, this is totally fair to ask:



Just be ready to deal with the ~consequences~, the better null sec becomes the less the income and that's not due to EvE mechanics but due to opportunity costs arbitrage.

Yes this is the exact gheto thinking i was talking about. Same thinking are among african countries.

Look I know that nullsec is full of asshats that will shoot anything that moves, thus preventing you from making your claimed space safe for neutrals. But thats the problem of low/null dwellers. Its not fault of hisec dwellers that null suck and that 90% of its dwellers are savage monkeys. Hisec works because it has reasonable dwellers.

There are already better rewards from PvE activities in low/null.
And what about Jita? And trading?.And industry?.Jita is succesfull because traders/manufacturers are no fighters. They will trade anywhere where its safe. Its like wallstreet. no Trader will trade in the middle of foking desert.

What prevents null from making a couple of NO FIGHT ZONE star systems open for all (you know - diplomacy)? There should be ageement among all low/null dwellers that certain systems will be safe for neutrals. You know, player made police, player made military (OMG Sandbox). You can profit from docking fees, you can profit from taxes, gatecamps could levy tolls ...oh wait... gatecamps would surely shred those ships to pieces.....But aggain... thats the problem of low/null dwellers themselves.

Hisec is not most profitable region. If null could have reasonable dwellers it could outprofit hisec by orders of magnitude. Hisec is just mirror of how bad are low/null dwellers at utilizing opportunities.

But nerfing Hisec just because of incompetence of low/null dwellers?... LOL

As i said before: "Gangsters who lives in the woods are complaining about criminality in the woods".

If you nerf hisec income by half or whatever the income of hisec players then you will be buffing Nullsec Sec by comparison. EVE is a free market and as null sec players become richer, things will become more expensive for high sec players.



It also takes twice as much time for a high sec mission runner to buy the next ship if you nerf their income.

Again: Problem is not about risk/rewards, Problem are the dwellers.

Can you name 2 countries in the world that allow unrestricted, royalty-free resource extraction?

Because I'm pretty sure that you don't live in one of them.

Well said.